#2384 - Mark Kerr

[00:00] the Joe Rogan experience train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day good bye what's happening yo do the movies fantastic [00:16] I know I told you outside, but I wanted to save it. I kind of had a little bit of a prejudice when I went to see the movie. I was like... [00:24] Okay, it's going to be an MMA movie. Yeah. But it's not. It's a movie that happens to be about MMA, but it's a great movie. Oh, I appreciate that. It's really good, man. It's like, you know, it's very gripping, and the performances are fantastic, and the way The Rock did you was nuts. [00:42] I can't explain it. I keep using the word surreal, but it doesn't describe it. Like I was saying that... [00:52] My son, when he watched it, [00:54] and just flipping out, like talking to me, [00:58] Like on the side, like I was saying, like literally just going, dad, dad. [01:02] He's got your mannerisms. He's got your speech mannerisms. But can you imagine, like, I'm picturing my son. He's in New York when he watched it. Right. And so I'm picturing him in the corner of the lobby of the theater, talking with his back to everybody, going, oh, my God, Dad. Like, it's like a doppelganger. He's got all of it. You know, like, full-blown, like, it was like the, because a lot of my saying for myself is I can't see the forest through the trees. I'm in the middle of it. Am I looking at it objectively?

[01:32] looking at or am I seeing something and I hear my son say, oh my gosh, dad, he nailed it. Right. [01:38] Unbelievable. He really did nail it. Like we were saying in the lobby, I didn't know the Rock could act that well. [01:45] It's really good acting. It's not like blockbuster movie acting, which is – he's great at that, but it's a different thing. [01:54] with DJ I kept trying to say to him you don't have to do this dude [01:59] Like, you don't have to do this. And he would stop me and he would go, yeah, I do. [02:04] What do you mean by you don't have to do this? You don't have to totally be me? He's at a place in his life where he can just keep doing blockbusters and be perfectly fine with it. I mean, he says it himself. There's always a place for that. There's always going to be a place for blockbuster movies and for that. But he needed to do something different. [02:25] He needed to do something different. Well, it's the perfect role if you want to do something different for him because it's a very complex role and it's about a giant dude. Yeah. And that's him. So it's really like the perfect way because otherwise if you're built like he is – [02:43] It's very hard to get work as a serious actor. This might be the only opportunity to show people, like, hey, I can actually act. Yeah, yeah. I think he did it with flying colors. He did an amazing job. Amazing. To the point where... [03:00] Like, Emily, unbelievable. She's great. She plays such a crazy bitch. Oh, my God, man. She's so good at it. Oh, my God. She's so good at playing crazy. Oh, my God. It gave me anxiety. Sometimes, like, when you're getting ready to fight, she's starting arguments. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm getting anxiety.

[03:30] January of this year and then and then the first time I see a complete version of it was in Venice and so I'm in Venice and there's Benny on my right and there's DJ on my left and there's Emily next to DJ in the last scene of the movie right that intensity of that scene is a very big thing. [03:51] I'm just telling you, it was like... [03:53] Thank you. [03:54] I said it was therapy for me because I think for the first time I could actually see my part in it. Like I could see my part, how fucking hard I was on the people around me. [04:06] You know, how just singularly driven I was to accomplish something at all. [04:12] at all costs and the person that paid it the most was dawn she paid a heavy price [04:19] You know, and you know, anybody that's successful, you know, for me, I was trying to raise everybody up, you know, everybody around me. And. [04:27] it was just a selfish endeavor and I could see it in those moments. I could see it in what, who DJ was, you know, and who Emily was in the intensity. I was like, fuck, fuck, [04:36] Well, it's such a crazy task to try... [04:40] to be an elite MMA fighter at a time where there was no, no one even knew what it was. No. I mean, you, when you first, I met you in 97. There's a crazy photo of us. I saw that. [04:54] Dude, 97. That's like 30 years ago, almost. Isn't that nuts? So this is what's fucking crazy. So trying to describe what I did back then, like people, their jaws would hang open. Right. They would go, you do what? Why would you do that? That's us.

[05:10] Oh, my God. 1997, dude. That's so crazy. Oh, my God. [05:17] So crazy. [05:18] Oh, my God. Were they even paying you back then? A little bit. They paid me a little bit. Oh, my God. It wasn't a lot of money. But for me, it was just for fun. I was a giant fan of the sport. And what happened was Campbell McLaren. Do you remember Campbell? Yeah. He was good friends with my manager, Jeff. And they were just talking. And he said, we need a guy to do backstage interviews, post-fight interviews. And he goes, Joe really loves the sport. He's like, really? He goes, oh, yeah. [05:48] all the fights in Japan and he's like and so for me it was just fun I mean it wasn't it was actually costing me money which is why I wound up quitting because I quit and I did it for like a year and a half two years maybe and then in 98 I was like I can't do this anymore I'm just it's just actually costing me money and so then when I um started doing Fear Factor that's when Zufa bought it yeah I wound up working for them again but in those days it was it was it was [06:13] For me, it was a dream because as a lifelong martial artist, when I was a kid, there was always the big question, what was the best style? And no one knew until Horry and Gracie put it all together and decided to create the UFC. And then all of a sudden we get to see it. And then obviously you had Japan Valley Tudo and then Pride and all these big events over in Japan. And it became, to me, it was like, finally someone did it.

[06:43] It was still... [06:44] brainwashed by the idea that, "Oh shit, he's seven foot tall or six nine, he's the toughest dude in the room." Right. Because that's how I grew up, right? Or 10th degree black belt, same thing. Right, right, right. Oh, no, no, no, no, don't mess with him. Yeah. And in one where [07:00] where that first time I fought, I was still under the delusion that that was the truth. [07:07] And so my trainer kept going, trust me, you're going to do fine. [07:12] Trust me, you're going to do fine. And it's just like he understood what I was as a wrestler, you know, that I can impose. Like I said to tell you, the best definition I've ever had for a wrestler is I can hold a grown-ass man where he doesn't want to be held for as long as I want to hold him there, and he can't do a fucking thing about it. Exactly. That's a wrestler. And you can dictate where the fight takes place always. So if you become a wrestler like Chuck Liddell, then you say, no, no, no, you can't take me down. [07:42] could do about it. Not a single thing. It's the most important skill. Oh my God, it's foundational. Foundational. And that's why there's so much success for the deck. [07:53] I'm going to blank on the names, but the... [07:58] The wrestlers are, it's a resurgence of like really what a foundational piece it is. Yeah. And how important it is when you have a high, high. You know what they're able to do too as a wrestler? I always just look at the Russian wrestlers and go, what makes them so good? They could flurry in succession more times than I could. Like Kurt Angle, right? When I wrestled against Kurt. Kurt trained at a level that I wasn't training at.

[08:28] I would just make mistakes because I would be to exhaustion. And you watch them. They'll string these moves together and string them together. Like Kamsah Chamiah is a great example of that. Oh, my God. Unbelievable. He's the best example of that. Unbelievable because you'll see him shoot, reshoot, shoot again, get up, stand up, fake, shoot again. And you can't keep up with it. [08:50] Inevitably, you just make mistakes or you just give in to the exhaustion of the moment, right? Yeah. And it's just like, okay. [08:56] This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist. And trust me, I know. [09:23] I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier and isn't getting more time with our four-legged [09:53] best friends something every dog owner wants the answer to that is [09:57] is yes, obviously. So try the farmer's dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food.

[10:06] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. [10:15] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. [10:45] with code rogan spend five bucks to get 200 in rewards within 21 days that's code rogan in partnership with draft kings the crown is yours gambling problem call 877-8-hope-and-wire text hope and why 467-369 21 and over new york only eligibility restriction apply bonus bets expire seven days after issuance for additional terms and responsible gaming resources cdkng.co slash audio limited time offer [11:11] This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it. Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is.

[11:41] handle the rest grill steak smoke ribs even baked pizza all on one grill if you're into fire flavor and doing things right check out traeger grills you do about it when a guy has an insane insane cardio with those kind of skills it is the toughest combination to be like kane velasquez in his prime [12:02] Oh my god Insane cardio, elite wrestling And then elite MMA stand-up skills as well Scary The cardio is the scariest thing When you're scared to hit the gas Three more minutes in the round And you see Kane is just fucking bobbing around He's not even breathing heavy In between rounds, his stomach's not even heaving He's a big dude He's 240, he's not even tired, it doesn't make any sense Yeah, it defies logic But there's guys like that that have that fucking insane cardio [12:32] - Yeah. [12:32] I mean, I don't know how much you follow in the UFC, but there's this kid Anthony Hernandez in the middleweight division that's nuts. [12:38] And then you've got Marab, Rob Dabish-Willie, who's like the best example of it. [12:42] unstoppable. So this is kind of, again, one of these things where [12:46] Were there certain athletes that have a gear that nobody else has? Yeah, right. [12:52] Yeah. And it's just how they're built. It's just how they're built. Well, I remember when you came along and when Coleman came along, all of a sudden everybody's like, I got to get on steroids. Yeah. Oh, my God. But he's like, I got to get bigger. I got to get bigger. That's when Vitor got up to like 240 pounds. Oh, my God. He was big. He was big. Way too big for his frame. [13:10] I mean, you're talking about a guy who eventually wound up fighting at 185. Yeah. Right? I mean, he finished his career up at 85, and he was there at 240 when he fought Randy the first time. Yeah. Which was bananas. So that night was my last UFC. That was UFC 15. Ah, wow. And that's when Randy beat Vitor. Mm-hmm.

[13:30] And it was one of those where I'm like, oh, just wait. [13:33] Because I know what Randy is. Randy's cardio. Randy can take it. It was one of those things where I was like, I don't think Victor's going to win. Right. And that's what we called him back then. His name was Victor. Yeah. When he first came into the UFC, his first fight when he was fighting in Hawaii, he was Victor Gracie. [13:53] Oh, snap. Yeah, he was going by the last name Gracie. And then I think he got sued or threatened with a lawsuit. And then he changed it to Victor Buffer because Horian was very litigious. He was very protective of the Gracie name. [14:09] and so he fought John Hess in Hawaii and beat the living shit out of him. Rumble on the Rock stuff or whatever it was. I don't think it was Rumble on the Rock. That was BJ's promotion, and that was later. This was, like, really early on. This was, I don't know who the fuck was doing that event, but it was just in a ring, and Vitor came out and blitzed him with punches, and nobody had seen anything like that before. Like, oh, God, this is a, because everybody thought Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt. Yeah. You don't think you're going to have a guy with his hands like that. [14:39] For real. He was so fast. Unreal and accurate. Yeah. [14:43] Like, you can be fast, and that's one thing, but fast and actually hitting the target when the target's bobbing and weaving, it's like, oh, my God, man. He's an interesting case study because he's – [14:53] First of all, pioneer, first fought in the UFC when he was 19 years old. Crazy. And went through, won the tournament at 19, which is just bananas. And then when we got to see him kind of...

[15:07] He got off the sauce, and his body kind of faded out, and then they brought back testosterone replacement. And then when testosterone replacement came in, all of a sudden it was TRT Vitor, and he was the scariest motherfucker alive for like five fights or whatever it was before they killed the TRT exemptions, and then it all went away for him. It's just like that should be a commercial for testosterone replacement. Yeah, I mean it really could be. [15:37] Because there was so much myth surrounding mixed martial arts that you felt like if you didn't do something, it was like the saying is like, oh, you're going to a gunfight with a knife. Right. It was that type of mentality back then. It was also everyone was on it and there was no testing. Yeah. Yeah. [15:54] And in fact, in Pride, when Ensign was on the podcast, he told me that in large letters it said, we do not test for steroids in the contract. Yeah, oh my God, man. They're like, ha. So they would do this. They would hand you a cup and go. [16:08] Yearn. [16:10] And you go, [16:11] uh who's clean you just look around you just you just hand the cup off going can you piss from here and you literally walk back to the medical and go here's the feed yeah here and i mean that's the but that's the era it was so your first fight was it was it in brazil in brazil yeah and um the crazy thing is they reproduced that arena that that conference room yeah perfectly yeah

[16:41] Because I saw your first fight. I saw all those early fights. And then to see that in the movie, I was like, oh, they did it. This is perfect. Because sometimes they fudge a little. So I was in Vancouver for the set when they had the setup. And I was sitting there. I was laughing with Benny about it going, all right, who came up with the pyramid in the door opening with fog machines? [17:11] Brainstorm going, you got any bright ideas on how to introduce the, yeah, let's do a pyramid and let's have a trap door fall. You know, it's like, what the fuck? Like, where in the bigger picture of stuff would go on? But they reproduced it to the T. It was perfect. Oh, my God. It was amazing. It was really great because in the movie they did about Mark Schultz, what was that movie again? [17:35] True... [17:35] fucking Foxcatcher. That's right. That movie had a lot of shenanigans in it. There was a lot of stuff that wasn't real. Wasn't accurate. Wasn't accurate. Like, he fought Big Daddy Goodrich in his one MMA fight, but in the movie, he's fighting some Russian dude. [17:52] Didn't make any sense. Completely different cat. Fought a white guy in the movie. Wow. Yeah. Big Daddy Goodrich and Big Daddy was wearing the gi. [18:00] Wow. Yeah, remember? I mean, not only that, but it was like, Big Daddy Goodrich is a legend. Yeah. Like, how do you leave him out when that was his only MMA fight? Fight.

[18:12] Like, why did you change the guy he fought? That doesn't even make any sense. [18:16] But they just did Hollywood shenanigans. Yo, so... [18:19] You know, that was a huge part from the beginning of this when DJ and I talked back in 2019 is just the trust factor. You guys started talking about this in 2019? Yeah, 2019. Wow. Yeah. Six fucking years. Yeah. Yeah. [18:34] Yeah. Wow. Here's what's crazy. So, so he says, Hey, you know, [18:39] we're going to move forward with this. And so for me, I hadn't even thought about [18:46] any of this. Like it being a movie, he wants to play me in a movie, and he goes, I'm [18:51] I'm going to make the announcement. Madison Square Garden at the BMF Belt. [18:56] He goes, we had this beautiful conversation, and it was just like this, do you trust me? [19:02] And it was like... [19:04] Yeah. Yeah, I do. He's a fucking great dude. Oh, my God. Solid. By the way, he says, say hi. He left me a great message on the way over here. I was listening to him, man. He's just, he's a rare human being. He is. I'm going to call him after this just to tell him what a fucking amazing job he did. Because I wanted to watch it right before I saw you. Okay. So I watched it today. [19:25] And I was like, God damn, this is a good movie, man. And I was just blown away by how well he captured the chaos of the Pride organization, the weirdness of the contract negotiations, everything. [19:40] So... [19:41] Thank you.

[19:42] So Benny from the beginning said the only way we're going to be able to do this is have that authenticity to the point where I sent them. [19:52] watches, rings, necklaces, [19:56] posters, everything I could find picture-wise, everything to their props in production. Oh, wow. And they reproduced. [20:04] everything. Oh, wow. So, Joe, I mean, like when I went up to Vancouver, like and walked into some of these sets, like literally going, [20:15] Holy fucking shit. Did he flashback? Oh my God. Like, like you'd walk into a room and there, there'd be from one corner all the way to the other on the wall, just pictures of me and my house and my, this and this outfit, this and these in my house and this and, and then production saying, okay, was this accurate? How did this, it was this. [20:36] Thank you. [20:37] It was this unbelievable, painstaking... They rebuilt my life 25 years ago. So when DJ got into me, he actually was... That was... [20:48] He was me. [20:49] Wow. [20:50] Yeah, it seemed like it, man. I mean, it really did because, you know... [20:54] It's just it's hard when a guy's so famous. [20:59] To pretend that he's someone else. Yeah. He has to, like, be really good to get you convinced. And I was all in. I was all in. So first time I saw him in Vancouver, like, nobody told me. Nobody said, hey, listen, we're going to do prosthetics. We're going to give him your cauliflower ear. We're going to make his brow. And nobody told me this. So I was up there for fight week. And they're getting ready to shoot the scene where they're introducing everybody to the finalists for the Grand Prix.

[21:29] one to walk in and I'm watching the ring I don't know he's behind me [21:33] And I turn around, and it's like this... [21:36] Like, I see him as me. Like, this is, Joe, this is what I did. I'm like, fuck you. Like, fuck you. Like, oh, my God. And it's this moment where I'm looking at him. [21:50] And I'm looking at myself. Yeah. [21:53] I can still see him in there, but I'm like looking at a, like a mirror picture myself. [22:00] And it's this experience where I'm like, oh my God, man, like, [22:06] Wow, like you're going. Like this is you going to a place that nobody even thought you could get to. Right. [22:15] Like, it was incredible. Well, you're such an important part of the history of MMA that I think this movie did that. It really honored that. It really did it justice. [22:28] At the end of the movie when it talks about how fighters today make millions of dollars. I'll cry. Go on. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. It's like you guys paved the way. If it wasn't for you guys. [22:40] just doing it for very little money, like barely getting by, putting your whole life on the line and barely getting by. Oh, and I love that you had Alexander Usyk. Oh, my God. This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad Hard Seltzer. Happy Dad's hard drinks are a low carbonation, gluten free and easy to drink. No bloating, no nonsense, football games, golfing, watching fights or out on the lake. These moments are made for Happy Dad.

[23:10] Everyone is drinking all these skinny cans loaded with sugar, but Happy Dad only has one gram of sugar in a normal can. Can't decide on a flavor? Grab a variety pack. Lemon, lime, watermelon, pineapple, and wild cherry. They also have a great flavor in collaboration with Death Row Records. Happy Dad is now available nationwide in the USA and Canada. Go to your local liquor store or visit happydad.com. [23:40] To buy one Happy Dad trucker hat and get one free. Enjoy a cold Happy Dad. Must be 21+. Please drink responsibly. Happy Dad hard seltzer and tea. [23:52] Malt, alcohol, Orange County, California. That was amazing. So Benny signed him before he beat, before he became the Undisputed Champ. Oh, wow. Right, 2019. Yeah. Wow. So it's one of those things where – [24:08] Everything just kind of lined up in a way where you're like... [24:11] alright, this is manifest destiny, right? This is like Joe Dispenza. You know, like you're really tapping into something that's bigger, because it's pulled all these people together. Uzek did a great job, too. Oh, he did a phenomenal job. He moved the life of Chinchin. Oh my God, he did that spinning back. Yes. I'm like, he's a boxer. He's not supposed to. Yeah, I mean, I didn't even know he could do that. No, dude, you're not. That's kind of crazy. Well, I guess I could kind of do anything. He's such a great athlete.

[24:41] You know how many rounds he trained? [24:45] Prior to fighting Tyson Fury? No. 600. [24:50] Jesus. With three different training partners. [24:54] So every dude came in every third round. He had a fresh guy on him. I know that he was doing 15 rounds a day, and he made a deal with himself that his back touched the ropes. He would have to do another round, an extra round. [25:06] So that's one that I didn't hear that, but he said he would do rounds where he wasn't allowed to punch. [25:12] Oh, wow. [25:14] At all. He just had to bob and weave in defense. I'm like, okay. [25:20] Like he takes, he's like one of us. Like he just takes it to a level that is just unbelievable. He's a genius. Like a literal boxing genius. Again, I don't use that term lightly. Like what he did to Dubois, I was like, oh my God. Because when you see Dubois, when Dubois knocked out Anthony Joshua, you're like, wow, this kid might be the future. He is a fucking destroyer. He's seeking destroy, brutal power, giant guy, incredible athlete. [25:48] And Usyk just pieced him up. Just took him up, dismantled him, and took him apart, and did it with all skill. On, like... [25:55] literally like understanding. He's not the biggest dude in the world. No. He's big, but he's not like 6'9". No, he's not Tyson Fury. No. He's not Dubois. He's not Dubois. He's not Anthony Joshua. It's Joshua. None of them. No. No, he's a cruiserweight. He's a cruiserweight that beat everybody and knew that the only way to make real money is to go up to heavyweight. Yeah. And really leave a real legacy. Because he could have been one of those guys that retired as an undefeated cruiserweight. And boxing fans like myself would talk about him, but everybody else would be like, who?

[26:25] you [26:25] Yeah. Meanwhile, now he's in the conversation of one of the greatest. Oh, sure. Tyson Ali. He's like, he's in there with that conversation. And it's just consistently an overachiever, consistently an overachiever. And he's fucking 38. Right. Which is even even crazier. Yeah. Like he hasn't shown any slipping in his skill level at all or his endurance or his enthusiasm or his discipline. None of it. [26:49] Just, well, also, it's like... [26:51] He was so fortunate to have been trained by Lomachenko's dad. I didn't know that. Yeah. So he's like a giant Lomachenko. Oh, my God. Because Lomachenko is so agile, so much footwork and movement. That makes sense. He's basically like the heavyweight version of it. [27:07] Wow. Yeah. [27:09] That makes actually more sense. It makes more sense, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because... [27:12] This movement for such a big guy is just extraordinary. It just doesn't exist anywhere else because it's not just the light on the feet. It's the angles he takes after punches and then the shifting of the weight back to center when you don't expect it. [27:26] And that's like my son. Actually, it's my son's birthday today. Happy birthday. What's his name? Bryce. Happy birthday, Bryce. Yeah. 21. I go, it's a birthday to wait for, but he's already doing all this stuff that you know. [27:41] They all do. Yeah, I know, right? It's that age bracket. So my son loves the science of boxing. Even 10 years ago, when he was like 11, 12 years old, he'd be on YouTube watching the footwork. [27:54] Of boxers. And I'm like, because I didn't get into that science of it and footwork and all that until I started doing MMA. Like, understanding, like, I understood wrestling. But boxing on that level is just amazing.

[28:08] It's a whole other complex set of skills. Well, you were so deep in wrestling, though, it's almost impossible to pay attention to anything else. At the level that you were competing at, that has to be everything you eat, breathe, sleep. Yeah, singular. Yeah, it has to be singular. It has to be. It's almost like you can't go down any rabbit holes. No, and that's one of those where, you know, my mentor, the guy that – [28:32] That really brought me to another level is a guy named Chris Campbell. He was Dan Gable's first NCAA champ when Dan Gable was a coach at Iowa. He made the 1980 Olympic team that was boycotted, won the 1981 World Championships, voted best technician in the world, and then retires. [28:50] and then decides he's going to make the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona. So he's at 37 years old. He wins a bronze medal that year in Barcelona. 37. That's pretty impressive. Really? For amateur wrestling. Oh, my God. People don't know. That's unheard of. I think still to this day he's the oldest Olympic medalist. [29:10] Wow. Because you just don't, you just, I mean, wrestling is just so demanding. It's such a young sport. Oh, yeah, it is. It is. So he ends up, he ends up, he ends up just really taking me by the hand and understanding, like, singular devotion to something. It's, he would, back then he did tape study, which wasn't a huge, huge deal.

[29:40] And you look and watch the tapes and you go, I don't see anything. Once you slowed it down, you go, you can't move him out of position. He doesn't, when he attacks and retreats, he's never out of position. And, you know, you look at it and go, oh. [29:53] Wow. [29:54] Because it was just these little things, little things that made a difference. It's so amazing that the Russians achieved that level in not just wrestling, but also in MMA, also in any combat sports. Yeah. Boxing. Yeah. Russian kickboxers are super technical. They're all known for being so technical. It's really interesting. Mm-hmm. You know? And again, I would think that somewhere in there, there's a root. There's a common, like, there's coaches and mentors. [30:24] not a wrestler or MMA is through mentorship. You know, somebody really going, Hey, let me, let me show you. And they had a mentor and they had a mentor. It's this lineage that's passed along. Um, and I know I went from being a good wrestler to being a really good wrestler when Chris took me under his wing. [30:42] You know, we drill the same thing thousands of times and it would be like the difference between holding my hand here and holding it here. And I'd go, it's two inches. Right. What's it? And you go. [30:53] When you speed it up to full speed, those two inches become six. [30:59] Right? [31:00] The leverage points. Yeah. And so I need him to be here. Perfect. Because once you go full speed, you're going to miss it. But you're only going to miss it by this much. You know, it's interesting that George St. Pierre, although he never wrestled in high school or college, his training in Montreal was with Russian wrestlers.

[31:18] It was all Russian nationals who had moved to Canada. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. GSP, I was just talking to a friend of mine and – [31:26] I said he's probably, in my book, one or two. [31:30] Yeah, of all time. Yeah. Yeah. He's certainly in the conversation. It's so hard to say who because, you know, Mighty Mouse, I think, never got the credit that he deserved because he was a 125er. And then people forget how good Anderson was when he was in his prime. Oh, my God. And then B.J. Penn. B.J. Penn when he was in his prime. I feel like you really have to look at a guy when he's redlining, like when he's really at the peak of his abilities. You can't judge him by the fights they fight after their prime. Yeah. You can't because it's not fair. [32:00] when they were champion, when they were running shit, who exhibited a level of MMA that's above and beyond everyone else? And George is certainly in that conversation. Oh, he's for sure. I mean, part of... [32:15] part of what, like, Jon Jones, right? Mm-hmm. [32:19] Like when you get somebody at that level, at his peak, right, and he can make other – [32:25] professional fighters look like they're amateurs. They look silly. Yeah. They don't belong in there. And he was doing that to guys when he wasn't training. That was crazy. Yeah, which is crazy. He was fucking off and barely in the gym and still dominating in world title fights. Sometimes I get a little upset because I'm like, you know how many fights he probably, as a spectator, as a fan, like how many fights we missed because of his shenanigans? Yeah. Yeah. Just like, argh.

[32:55] And what happened with him and what happens with a lot of guys is like the pressure of life sometimes. And what makes you a great fighter in the first place, there's a certain wildness. Yeah. And with a guy like John, that wildness, it's like it's hard to keep on a leash. Yeah. [33:11] Yeah. Yeah, I know how that feels. Yeah, I'm sure. [33:15] Well, I remember I had no idea. Yeah. [33:19] And I don't think anybody had any idea until the Smashing Machine documentary came out. And when that documentary came out, everybody was like, holy shit. First of all... [33:27] Kudos to you for allowing people to see you like that. Thank you. [33:34] completely honest about all of the addiction problems, all everything, and no one would have expected it. When they saw you, they just saw this fucking dominant destroyer. [33:46] This guy was like smashing everybody and you just thought, oh, well, that guy is just he's just a machine and just so mentally strong. He just gets out there and gets done. And then you allowed them to show you where. [34:00] In the making of the documentary, what they were essentially trying to capture was you at your prime. Prime, yeah. And what they caught you was you where your life was falling apart just fortuitously. It was just kind of random luck they caught you at that time. So when John Greenhall, who's the producer – [34:20] I went to Syracuse with him. We were on the wrestling team together. He's the one that called me and said, Hey, I want to do a documentary at that point.

[34:29] my [34:30] vision of what it was was a little Best Buy camera where they're like little flip screen and they show up and they go, okay, we're filming a documentary. I got changed tape, you know, and they show up in Japan for my Volchanchin fight with two 10,000, 15,000, whatever they were digital cameras. [34:50] Sony cameras [34:52] a boom mic in like five people. [34:55] I'm like... [34:57] "Oh, fuck, you're really gonna make a documentary." And so he was, right from the get-go, John could see, John could see, [35:08] What was the contrast like me as a fighter in me as a person that contrast? And so that's what he was after us is like to really show this contrast and like you can do this for a living and be this kind, sensitive. You know, that was weird about you. It was a very weird contrast. Yeah, very soft spoken, very kind, always very considerate to people, very nice. And then you get. [35:30] into the cage and it's like who the fuck is that guy you know you know what the feeling is the feeling is like the question i always had in my head is going okay if somebody's gonna go you me [35:41] in a room, who the fuck's coming out? And I never was able to answer that question for myself. I know I was competitive, right? But I didn't know if I had that switch, that thing, and then start fighting and going, oh, fuck, man, they're [35:55] There's a switch in there. And I figured through that process, what I was really trying to get is your will.

[36:02] I was trying to take your fucking will. And most people don't want to give it. Right. Like when you get a high level fighter, it's like Fabio Gagel didn't want to give me his will. [36:12] Head-butted him, dug into cuts, did all this, beat him mercilessly, and he didn't want to give me his will. He wouldn't give it to me. And it frustrated me. I didn't know how to take it from him. I'm going, I'm out of answers. You're waiting for him to break. Yeah. He doesn't break. He doesn't break. [36:27] Yeah, some people don't break. You can break their body, but their will, you can't break. No, he was one of them. He was one of them, and it's still to this day. I mean, the next day, his wife calls me, and I have lunch at his house. Wow. [36:39] Which is crazy because my first fights, don't know, everybody in the audience was there for him. And when his wife calls me the next day, I literally go, oh, fuck, man, here it is. He's going to have all his boys up at the house. He's going to fucking get his due. Right? Like, because I didn't know. Right. Right. [37:00] And so I go, okay, what do I got to live? And so I go up and we sit down just like we're sitting here. And his wife interprets the whole entire time. And it was this, it was actually beautiful. [37:12] It was beautiful. That's awesome. Here's what it set for me. It set a standard. [37:17] of how I was going to carry myself as a fighter. What happened in the ring is in the ring. [37:24] Right. The second you're out, you're – [37:28] That's different. Well, that speaks to his character, why you couldn't break his will in the first place. Yeah, absolutely. Because he's such locked down.

[37:36] Absolutely. For me, it was one of those like... [37:41] revelations of like... [37:43] okay, this is how you do this. As a professional. Yeah. Well, you know, also like Brazil had a much longer history of these kind of fights, like going way back to the Elio Gracie days. Yeah. This is an ad by BetterHelp. When you have a problem, when you're feeling down, it's nice having someone to turn to, like a partner who can cheer you up, a friend to vent to, a parent who can give you advice. Even having a nice conversation with a stranger can be uplifting. [38:12] Whoever you like to turn to, though... [38:15] probably won't have all the answers. That's where therapy comes in. There are some things that you can get from therapy you can't get anywhere else. Like if you're struggling with anxiety or depression, a therapist can help you develop positive coping skills. Or if you're struggling with how to be kinder to yourself, therapy can help you take a step in the right direction. [38:45] head online to fill out a short questionnaire and BetterHelp will set you up with a therapist based on your needs. If for any reason it's not a good fit, you can switch to another therapist at no extra cost. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Find the one with

[39:15] I mean, culturally understanding way different. And that's like the, okay, I'm going to carry myself. You know, part of it was, you know, I wanted to. [39:33] change the narrative of like, [39:36] When you looked at the early UFCs, it looked like some guys were just scraped off a bar stool and thrown into the octagon, right? And so when I came there, I was like, okay, I want to be considered professional, right? I want to carry myself as a professional. I'm going to be articulate. I'm going to dress as a professional. I'm going to – because I wanted to up the ante. I wanted to, like, raise the standard, right? Especially when I went to Japan. It's like, you know, press conference. Everybody's in sweatsuits. [40:06] it, but I was in a thousand dollar Calvin Klein suit on a charge card. But I wanted to change the narrative. I wanted to be, I wanted to be a professional. [40:17] Because if I was a professional, treated like a professional, I could ask for pay like a professional. [40:22] Not like some dude that was just scraped off a barstool and thrown into a ring. So what was the pride experience like? [40:30] Fought in the UFC, and then did you have a contract that expired? Like, what happened? So, oh, boy, this is – so I signed a three-fight tournament deal with the UFC. I did 14 and 15, and I still had one tournament obligation on the contract.

[40:50] So after 15, the Japanese had seen enough footage, and I got contacted by Pride. They're like, hey, we want to fly you over. [41:00] um [41:01] We want to have... [41:03] you as a key piece to build this organization. So I'm like, okay. So they fly me first class over, first class hotel. I meet with... [41:13] I meet with a guy named Mr. Ishizaka, who his real name is Kim Duk-soo. He's a Korean guy. [41:19] And Mr. Ishii, who owned K1. Wait a minute. A Korean dude was pretending to be Japanese? You had to have a Japanese name. Whoa. You couldn't do business in Japan. [41:32] without a Japanese name. That's crazy. So he just changed his name? He signed all of his documents, legal documents, Kim Duk-su, [41:40] Wow. But every single person called him Mr. Ishizaka. Wow. Yeah. So he had to learn Japanese. Yeah. And it's still with an accent because he spoke Korean, too. So it's just one of those where understanding, like, the culture back then just was still stuck, you know, and hadn't really progressed. Wow. So Mr. Ishii owned K1, and Mr. Ishizaka started Pride. Wow. [42:06] And it was called KRS at the beginning before it turned into Dream Stage. Oh. And so here's where it gets a little sticky. So I go over there. I take for Pride 2. It's supposed to be me and Hoist Gracie. [42:20] him and I, there's still fight posters that have signed of him and I facing off with each other, signed the contract to fight for way more money than was being paid for the, in the UFC. And, um,

[42:33] When I get back to the States, I get served with a... [42:38] I get served with papers to appear in court in New York City. The USC is suing me. It's when Bob Meyerowitz still owned it and Art Davis was involved. And so they're suing me for breach of contract. [42:49] And it was like one of those things where I was like... [42:52] Okay, I didn't, you know, like one of those experiences where I was like, oh, shit. You know, and the Japanese said, okay, we still want you. You need to sort this out. So it took four months, five months to sort out the differences between what the UFC needed and if they're going to let me go and all this other stuff. In that time frame, Hoist got hurt. And so Hoist had to step out, and they put Bronco Sigate in there, and I ended up fighting Bronco and Pride, too. Oh, wow. [43:22] So if everything would have went as everything, I would have fought Hoist Gracie. [43:27] In the Tokyo Dome, him and I main event, me at my peak, hoist still in his prime. Wow. That would have been insane. Oh, my God. It would have been like thinking about it going because people have asked like, who would have won? I'm like, I don't fucking know. But I would have given it every single thing I could. That's it. That's the poster. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. [43:52] Signed, inked everything. [43:55] You had at least 80 pounds on him. [43:57] Oh, at least that. Yeah. But, but this is it. This is the transition from not knowing what I was getting into going. I can't fucking carry that much weight at all and be cardiovascular. I just can't. What were you at your heaviest?

[44:13] 280, 285. Jeez. Like 6% body fat. Oof. Yeah. That's hard to breathe. Brutal. If I didn't fucking get a hold of you and fucking squeeze the life out of you in the first couple minutes, I was fucked. I was completely fucked. You know? Yeah. Well, that was kind of the case with Coleman as well. Yeah. When he was really, really big. I was in the corner when he lost. He was bad at hell. I was cornering him when he lost to Marie Smith. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I was there for that one. [44:43] That was a real game changer. Oh, that changed the narrative for everything. Because what Maurice brought to the game was Maurice was training with Frank Shamrock at the time. And so he had extreme cardio. He was doing a lot of swimming. He was running hills. I mean, he was really cardiovascularly at an elite level for an MMA fighter at the time. Frank and I used to talk about heart rate training way back when. [45:09] Like, like literally like functional training. [45:13] And going, okay, how do you approach something and come up with a formula where you can get through a training camp and still be viable at the end of that training camp when you have five-minute rounds? Right? How do you do it? There wasn't a formula for it. Right. So Frank was like, I started doing this heart rate training and heart rate recovery and all this stuff. And I was like, oh, shit. And then I run into these trainers when I was in California at Gold's Venice. There's a guy named T.R. Goodman. And he was training hockey players.

[45:43] Thanks. [45:44] And hockey players have to have that burst recovery, burst recovery. Wow. Very similar cardiovascular system to fighters. So TR took over my training when I was in California, and that was a whole other level. Because I never really had the functional training implemented the way he did. And that's when my weight came down. It's like I really tried to fight between like 235 and 240 was ideal. [46:14] that seems like the ideal heavyweight it is it is it's very weird that first of all that the heavyweight division has a weight limit yeah oh my god it's really especially the ufc [46:25] Because it doesn't really in Japan and some other organizations. They'll allow the super heavyweight division. And in boxing, you can be as heavy as you want. Tyson Fury's been 290 before. But when the UFC has this 265-pound weight division, it seems like the best elite guys like that 240 range. For me, that was – like I knew I had a good training camp if I came in 235, 240. If I didn't train hard enough, I was 250. If I over-trained, I was under 230. [46:55] For Pride Grand Prix, I think I weighed in at 229. Because right before that- And you felt overtrained? I felt overtrained because in between when I fought Ensign and the Pride Grand Prix, I did Abu Dhabi. [47:07] and so I won my weight class that year and I won the all around so you got super conditioned oh my god super conditioned but you lose I lost a little bit of what I needed was that

[47:22] physical dominance. I could have the endurance, but again, it's one of those where it's like going into it when I fought Fujita, there's so many factors that I didn't account for. [47:34] My calorie intake just wasn't where it needed to be. A lot of times leading up to a fight, my appetite just diminishes as I get towards it, especially that fight week. [47:46] That's interesting. Why do you think that is? Nerves. It gets to a point where [47:52] like fight morning, I have a small little window where I could digest food. [47:56] Or I could take food in. It's not like I could sit and eat all day. And then as your nerves start kicking in. It just starts kicking in like literally. And it's controlled focus, right? Because it's like I can't have all my nerves running everywhere. But it's controlled focus. But that controlled focus, my body goes, I don't need digestion. [48:14] Fuck, I'm about to fight. What the fuck do I need to digest food for? Right, right, right. You know? Yeah, a lot of guys have made those mistakes. Aljamain Sterling said he made that mistake when he first fought Piotr Jan. Yeah. [48:23] He just didn't eat. [48:25] It's brutal. So that last scene against Fujita is 100%... [48:31] hypoglycemic crash laying there can't move my body and if you watch a documentary what i'm saying on the way back is i need sugar i need sugar i need sugar that's all i could think about was like any sugar i need sugar i need sugar because my blood sugar levels had just crashed you this like i can't fucking move geez it's so crazy to the watch the evolution of the training

[49:01] extraordinary because there's not a real another sport that has gone through that much of a metamorphosis. [49:06] Not even close, really. In that time frame. Because it's a short time frame. Because, again, it's asking the question of, like, okay, championship fight, 25 minutes, five five-minute rounds. [49:18] How do you train for it? Right. [49:22] Because the reality is no one can go full blast for five five-minute rounds. Can't do it. [49:26] Maybe Merab can. [49:29] I wouldn't fucking doubt that. He might be the one. He might be the only guy because he doesn't seem to get tired. So this is like observationally. Usually in a championship fight, if it's a striker against a wrestler, usually at first two rounds, strikers usually have that advantage. In the third round, if you go back and watch this third round, the grappler starts to impose a little bit more on him. [49:56] is the grappler completely just takes that fight over because it's one of those things where... [50:01] You it's that grind. Yes, it's also a big part of being able to stuff. Take you want some coffee? Yeah, I think a big part of being able to stuff. Takedowns is having energy. Oh, my God. It's everything. I's trying to fuck you up and take you down. There's so much energy involved in trying to stuff a takedown. And then when you don't have it, you're like, I'm just let him take me down. I'll just like take a break here and then work back to the. But no, like with some guys, like you're not getting back up. No elbowed in the face.

[50:31] And that's that control thing, right? Part of what I go, like if I look at my fight and go, I was never going to be the best striker. [50:39] Like never going to be the best kicker puncher. But if I could turn you in a wrestler, I'm, [50:45] That was the secret sauce for me. I just need to make you wrestle me. And I'm good. [50:52] Right? Yeah. Because I know I can fucking beat the fuck out of you wrestling. Yeah. Yeah. [50:56] The key was transitioning to make you wrestle me. Yeah, it's the specialist, specialist thing. It's like if you want to be a specialist, being a specialist at wrestling is by far. By far. When you see what Hamzat did to Drekus. Oh, my God. Hamzat, that's the example. Perfect example. That's elite. [51:14] Elite, elite wrestler. Against a world champion MMA fighter who's been dominating everybody and who's very difficult to take down. And Hamza just ramped it up, kept it up. Attack. And like I was saying, that Russian, Dagestan, Uzbekistan, it's this ability to sustain an attack repeatedly. Because it's that cardiovascular system. I'm born at 6,000 feet in altitude, 7,000 feet in altitude, a little bit more of an advantage, right? [51:44] And so you end up with these attacks where you can sustain them beyond your ability to defend them. It's also having such a technical game that as you're implementing the first attack, you've already got three attacks on standby. And then as he counters, you've anticipated the counter. You have a counter to his counter and then a counter to his readjusting after your counter. Yeah.

[52:07] And you're just hitting him over and over. He just can't keep the rhythm. I literally, I text my son. I was at that fight. I text my son and go, this is what an elite wrestler could do to a professional fighter. It's nuts. It's nuts because it was like a lot of people thought it was boring because it just didn't get to a decision. It just went to a decision. But you just kind of appreciate that level of dominance against a world champion. It's kind of crazy. [52:37] middleweights of all time. I mean, look at what he did to all these guys. He knocks out Robert Whitaker. He beats out Asanya. He fucking beats Sean Strickland twice. Like, oh my God, he might be one of the greatest of all time. And then after that fight, you're like, I don't think he's ever going to beat that guy. I don't think he's ever going to beat that guy. Isn't that crazy? It was like, I don't think there's enough time in the world to... [52:59] Let's talk about Service Titan. Over 10,000 contractors already run their businesses on Service Titan. Now they're building an AI trained on real trades workflows. This isn't generic AI. This is AI built specifically for contracting work, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and more. It's booking calls, helping run your back office, and growing your revenue automatically. Every other industry is still trying to figure out AI. [53:29] The trades are about to lead from the front. Service Titan, the AI for the trades. Learn more at servicetitan.ai. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. When you're looking to hire, you consider someone's skills, experience, availability. But even more important than that is someone's enthusiasm. They should want to be there. Finding the right kind of motivation isn't as tough as you think. You just need ZipRecruiter.

[53:59] Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. ZipRecruiter connects you with qualified candidates instantly, and their latest feature puts the most interested ones at the top of your list, so you can make sure you're speaking with the right people at the start. Use ZipRecruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. [54:29] can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Bridge that gap. You can't. You can never catch up. You know, I would never pretend stepping into the octagon that I would be able to get elite striking skills. [54:50] Right. You know, like that gap could just it's constantly just something you never can get to. It's also, you know, it's like it's like Sean O'Malley. Right. Uh huh. [55:00] The only way that he's going to be able to get a championship back is somebody else needs to beat. [55:06] Murab. Yeah, Murab. Yeah. And then it's got to be stylistically. Stylistically matchup, right? That's that conflict of matchup. Because skills, you're not going to do that. I mean, he got better for the second fight. He did a lot better. But still. So did Murab, though. That was part of the problem. That guy's not. He's not stopping. [55:25] God, how old is he? Marab? I think he's 34. How old is Marab?

[55:31] Rob Dwavishwily. 34. He was 34. So he's in his prime right now. In his prime for another few years at least. Yeah. I would think that it's one where... [55:43] There's going to be a lot of people that think they can, but that's just a different animal. Yeah, it's going to take someone who's that kind of a wrestler who maybe has a striking advantage who could beat him. [55:54] But then, you know, that's an anomaly. It's just it's such a crazy sport to watch. [56:01] That, you know, from 1994 to 2025, it's almost unrecognizable. The difference in the gap. You can't. Like, there was a period of time where I couldn't watch. [56:14] I didn't watch the UFC, probably about like seven, eight, nine years. [56:18] And over the last five, six years, I've watched it almost religiously, right? And just... [56:24] realizing the fighters today. [56:27] Oh, my God, man. They hit a level, and it's that mutation. It's like this first generation, second generation. Yes. And they're advancing so fast. [56:37] that you're looking at these new fighters, you're like, [56:40] Like, it's such a unique set of skills to do this. Incredible set of skills. Unique to any other sport in the world. And it's also, you're really fighting three different sports as one sport. Yeah. Which is really nuts. You're fighting grappling, you're fighting jujitsu, and you're fighting striking all together in one sport. It's like, wow. It's like playing soccer, football, and baseball at the same time. It's like, how the fuck would you do it? Yeah. While getting kicked.

[57:10] I'll get kicked and punched and elbowed. [57:16] But without guys like you, it would have never gotten here because if there weren't people that were willing to fight for very little money, travel overseas, have these crazy events. [57:27] And, you know, and beat your body up and do what you did and what Coleman did and a lot of those guys did in the beginning. Without you guys, there is no UFC today. It's just not the same. It was, you know, one, like being in the Hall of Fame and being in the Pioneer League and understanding that – [57:47] Like I said to myself, you know, even if I advance a sport, you know, this much, it needed this much at the time to get to where it is today. Right. Like Coleman advance a sport this much. Well, you guys brought in the new element and the new element was elite wrestling with enormous muscles. Yeah. And everyone's like, oh, this is a real problem. Yeah. And especially in the early, early days, because Coleman would get on your guard and just headbutt the fuck out of you because headbutts were legal. [58:17] Yeah. Legal. And bare knuckle. When I first did his – I interviewed him after he beat Dan Severin when he became the first UFC heavyweight champion. Total bare knuckle. Yeah. He had a little bit of tape on the hands trying to keep the bones from snapping in half. Isn't that frightening? Wild. Yeah. [58:35] Like, people – you know, they watch it now, and, you know, this film, right, it gives –

[58:43] it gives people a little bit of a look inside of like what it was and, and, [58:50] For me, the... [58:55] The cool part about it is understanding, like I said, I'm just a little piece. But that little piece is necessary to be able for me to watch some of the guys do what they do now. [59:06] Well, it's different than any other sport in that these little pieces had to be there before people could figure out what to do. Yeah. Well, Dana put them all together. [59:16] Yeah. You know, when I actually talked to him when I was in Newark, that's one thing I said. I said, look what you built. [59:22] You can feel however you want about him personally. Look what you built. [59:26] yeah like no one could even imagine this well you have to be a madman to do what he does like he that guy works so hard and he works so many hours and he fucking loves it and he loves the sport like truly loves the sport he and i have like long conversations on the phone i would imagine about fights i would imagine just about like i go what are you gonna do about this guy oh when's that when's this happening you know is this true does this guy really get hurt he did fuck yeah oh my [59:56] So you're rescheduling it? Okay, good. Yeah. And, you know, we have these long-ass conversations, and I'll tell him about kickboxers that I've been watching or tell him about these guys. I mean, that's one of the ways that we became friends and one of the ways that I started working for him in the first place is because – [1:00:10] We would have conversations when I first met him when I was on Fear Factor, and I wasn't even working for the UFC. I'd be like, you watch the fights in Japan? Do you ever watch Japan Valley Tudo? Do you know about this guy? Do you know about Hicks and Gracie? Do you know about this guy? And I'd be just rattling off different names. And he was like, how do you know all this? I'm like, I don't know. I don't even know the rules to basketball. I don't know what's happening. I know when the ball goes in the net, it's good. I don't know the rules to football. I don't know the rules to anything. Yeah, exactly. I only have room for combat sports.

[1:00:40] Ask me about Marcelo Garcia. Yeah, I can answer those. I'll rattle off some stats. I know some shit about fighting. But to me, it was like Eddie Bravo and I. [1:00:51] When we were kids, when we were young, young fellows, when we were hanging around, working out, we would say to ourselves, like, you know what this sport needs? Some crazy billionaires who love the sport. They're just going to dump a bunch of money because we knew at the time we were like, this is the most exciting sport in the world. Right. So all it needs is for these really rich guys to be fans of sport. And it's almost like it manifested itself because that's what happened. [1:01:21] took a crazy chance. They were $40 million in the hole. $40 million in the hole on the UFC. And it was just losing money, losing money. And they just hung in there year after year after year until they were almost ready to fucking sell. And then they decided to go forward with the ultimate fighter. [1:01:39] That's the game changer. That was it. That personalized it. Yes. That personalized it. Well, people got to see it on Spike TV. And then the fights were so wild that people were calling their friends. And they were saying, you've got to watch this. So as the show is on, and this is like before social media was really a thing. So as the fight was on, the ratings kept going up and up and up and up.

[1:02:09] We got a hit. Yeah. And Diego Sanchez won the 185 pound division and then the fight between Stefan Bonner and Forrest Griffin. That's the fight that changed everything. Changed the game. Because that's one of those, if you ask just a marginal fan, they'll refer to that. Exactly. They'll refer to that. Because at the time, nobody had ever seen anything like it. They didn't know what MMA was. And here it is on TV and these two guys were so evenly matched. [1:02:37] That was the best part about it. They both had trained together in the house for all those fucking weeks. They'd all be talking shit to each other and all that. And they knew they were going to fight in the finals. So it was like this long buildup. And they were perfectly matched. And it was just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, fucking swing, wheel kick, punch. I mean, there's so much shit in there. That fight just went on and on. And at the end of it, the whole crowd was like, yes! And, you know, I was the one... [1:03:07] I was the first person to suggest. I was like, they both should have a fucking contract. This is crazy. You can't take a contract away from one of these guys for this fight. And Dana, to his credit, gave both those guys the contract. And it was all of a sudden the sport was hot. And then Chuck Liddell was the poster boy. Because he was the perfect guy to be the most famous champion at the time. Because he was a destroyer. Oh, God. He was unreal. You just seek and destroy.

[1:03:37] serial killer's eyes and just march. You know what, when you watched him, like me watching him, he was so awkward when he held his hands and punched. It was so, like even watching now, he was just hunting. He was just hunting. Yeah. And hunting. And loading up with everything. And it wasn't like, [1:03:56] No. It was every single thing was thrown with intent. Yeah, everything was thrown to shut you off. [1:04:04] And he could do it and he could do it for five fucking rounds too, which is crazy, which is in his probably the thing about that style is it's unsustainable. Yeah, he never ducked a punch in his life. He took a burn and shoot a fucking blasted right through. He had an iron jaw. It was fucking iron. Yeah, but. [1:04:23] everybody's iron jaw gives out after a while. It just, you can't, and you train that way too. You can't sustain it. It's just one where, so when the Fertittas first bought the UFC, I was living in California, and a friend of mine who was helping me at the time said, hey, listen, they're up at Big Bear having a training camp. I'm like, okay, let's go up. So get my truck, drive up. It starts snowing. It was like February. They were going to do their first big push with Tito, right? [1:04:53] a.m. in the morning. Oh, my God. So my attorney was in the car with us. He literally the tow truck takes us up to the top of the hill. I still get to talk to Dana. I still get to talk to Frank and Lorenzo. And I'm like, yeah, I got it by drunk. I was like, well, we're going to Beverly Hills. We'll share tomorrow. Why don't you just jump in the limo with us and we'll take you down. I'm like,

[1:05:15] Okay. So I get like this three hour drive down the mountain with Frank and Lorenzo, the new owners of the UFC. Wow. And we're just sitting there talking. They're like, hey, you know, how is it working in Japan? They knew everything about me. How is it working in Japan? How do they do this? How do they do that? And it was just this really cool conversation, really cool experience to be able to go, okay, maybe this has landed in the right spot. [1:05:39] Oh, they were the right guys. [1:05:41] They were the right guys because they were like Frank and Lorenzo are rabid fans. Yeah. Rabid. Yeah. And they would train and they would beat the fuck out of each other. And that's where they met Frank. Frank, they brought Frank in to help them. They've kind of erased Frank. Frank. [1:05:57] So Frank Shamrock, in my opinion, is one of the all-time greats. And also... [1:06:02] one of the most important in terms of the metamorphosis, in terms of the evolution of the sport. Because Frank was the first guy with elite cardio that could do everything. He could submit you off his back. Like, remember when he fought Kevin Jackson? Yep, yep, yep. Caught in an arm bar. Bang! First round, right off his... He was elite everywhere. And his cardio was off the charts. When he fought Tito Ortiz, Tito was much bigger than him. Yeah. Not just a little bit bigger than him. Frank's not a big, framed guy. No, no. And Tito is a fucking house. [1:06:32] And he just overwhelmed him, beat him down with cardio, and then after that fight... [1:06:38] Tito taught everybody cardio is number one king. Yeah number one. Yeah, he when he was teaching when he was coaching on the ultimate fighter. He told everybody it's fucking cardio. Yeah, without cardio, you have nothing and his cardio was legendary, too.

[1:06:53] I mean, they say what fatigue makes cowards of us all. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it's true. I mean, it's just one of those. And again, this goes back to what I was saying about Frank and I having conversations back then about. [1:07:05] heart rate training. 25 years ago, you go heart rate, like a little polar, you know, watch and, you know, keep in like, oh, we need to recover this many beats in a minute, but actively recover. Right. Like you had to still continue to do shit and recover. And this is what Frank was saying. Yeah, I started doing this. I'm like, what the fuck? He was a very smart. Well, he is a very smart guy. Yeah. And I don't know why they had some kind of a falling out, but they don't highlight him anymore. [1:07:32] They don't talk about him at all. He's pivotal. Pivotal. I think you've got to let that go just for the honor of what happened, the honor of the sport. Because for the honor of the sport, when you look at Frank, when you look at his fights, he was elite, man. He was top of the food chain. He was ahead of his time. He was ahead of his time. By far. He was the first really, truly complete mixed martial artist. I agree. You know, and people see him like the fight that he fought when he was fighting in Strikeforce. [1:08:01] You're not teaming the same guy. You're seeing him. It's later in his life. You see when he fought Nick Diaz. You can't. It's like I said about goats. Yeah. You want to look at BJ Penn? You look at BJ Penn when he fought Sean Shirk. Yeah. Look at BJ Penn when he fought Big Daddy Stevenson. That's one of the scariest fucking guys who's ever stepped in an octagon at 155 pounds. Period. I put him with all of them and I don't know what happens. And then there's Khabib. Same. Oh, yeah. You put that guy with any 155 pounder who's ever existed and I don't know what's going to happen. Yeah.

[1:08:31] guy. There's a few guys like that, and Khabib has to be in that conversation, too. When you look at his dominance over the way he was winning fights, I'll never forget when he fought Edson Barbosa. It was in the first round, and Edson had this look in his eyes like, oh my god, I've got to get through how many more rounds with this motherfucker? Because he was just already exhausted, and this fucking animal from Dagestan was just on him. On him, dragging him to the ground. Oh my god, man. I'll never forget. [1:09:01] We had Michael Johnson down the ground. He's beating Michael Johnson up. And he's like, quit, quit. You know I need title shot is mine. You know title shot is mine. You know I deserved it. Quit. And he's just beating the fuck out of him, trying to be nice. He gets him in Kimura, and I'm going, please tap. I'm like, please tap. Please tap, because I'm seeing that spiral fracture. When they get that spiral fracture, I'm seeing it coming. I'm like, please tap. We don't even have been through that with Frank. When Frank got Minotaro in that. Here it is. [1:09:31] He's talking to him. He's like, listen, give me some volume. [1:09:36] I need to fight for the title. You know I deserve this. Come on, buddy. I don't want to have to hurt you. Oh, my God. Look at this. I mean, he's doing whatever. But this speaks to your point. See, everybody agrees that people are cheering. All right. [1:09:52] Look, I need to fight for it. Look, he's trying to be nice to him. [1:09:58] That's such dominance. It is. Trying to be nice to a nice guy. Like, come on, you know what the fuck is going on? Yeah. And again, to his credit, he didn't. I think he could have just fucking ripped that arm apart. He let him tap. He let him tap. I think. Wow. Wow. So this is like, again, we're saying like taking somebody fucking will taking it. He was a will taker. Oh, my God. The Connor. Oh, but he got on top of Connor's like, let's talk now. Let's talk now. Just beating his face in.

[1:10:27] Going, come on, you want to talk? Let's talk now. You talk about humble pie, like fucking having to sit back and like – [1:10:36] Because that's at a level where... [1:10:39] Because you're a bad motherfucker to begin with. And somebody that's even a badder motherfucker. Who just dominates you. Just, oh my God. Just could kill you. Same size as you. And basically he could kill you. If he wanted to, you're dead. Oh my God, yeah. You're not going to live. He's going to live. He could just literally choke you unconscious. Yeah. And just keep choking you to your. He was going to break his neck. He had him in that fulcrum choke. That is such a nasty choke. Look, here's where he gets it. [1:11:03] So he's getting it and he's holding on to it. Look, he's not going all through. No, no, no. He could have just ripped it off. Drop that right hip down, pull that left arm up, and that thing's snapping like a twig. It's so scary. That's my scariest technique. Other than guys when they break their shins, when they go shin to knee and the shin snaps in half. [1:11:26] Like silver breaking. That was horrible. Weidman was the worst. [1:11:30] And that stuff, one watch is good enough. It was so... When Weidman's was so loud. You don't need to pull that one off. And Weidman's... Yeah, don't pull that one. Weidman's went through his calf. His bones snapped through and poked out of his calf. Oh, which is real dangerous, too, because then you run the risk of heavy infection. Yeah, all of that. All that. You're on the dirty mat. You got an open wound. Oh. [1:11:55] No, some of that stuff is just like, gosh, man, it's other level. Do you feel weird that you did it? Like now when you look back, you've been removed for so long, do you like...

[1:12:03] You beat the fuck out of somebody, dude. [1:12:06] I remember when you took Dan Bovish down and you stuck your chin in his eyeball. Oh, my God, man. First, the only one still exists is this mission by chin and eyeball choke. Yeah. I don't know if you call it a choke. I'd never seen anybody do that before. I'm like, that's genius. You know what? It wasn't illegal. It wasn't illegal. And I know it hurt like a motherfucker. Yeah. [1:12:25] For him. Why would it be illegal? Why is it okay to elbow the eyeball, but it's not okay to shove your chin in there? I don't know. You know, those were the headbutt days. Oh, yeah. So headbutts were illegal, so why wouldn't it be legal? You could chinbutt a guy if you wanted to, I guess. Yeah. So if you use – I mean, but the thing is, it's a real weapon. Yeah. It is real. Yeah. It's very effective. Like, I don't think we should poke to eyes because – Yeah. Yeah, that's a different thing. Eyes are so vulnerable. But that is also obviously a real weapon. [1:12:55] They go look these guys are the toughest fighters in the world you poke them in the eyes They're right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I don't know how good you are and I poke and you have to be pretty fucking that yeah Count on no no [1:13:08] Yeah, here it is. [1:13:10] Yeah. You shoved your fucking shit right in his eyeball. He's just like. Bro. And I know. So when I'm down there, I could hear him. Oh, like, fuck, that hurt. Oh, it was horrible, dude. It was horrible. But again, it speaks to what we're talking about, the dominance of elite wrestling and how elite wrestling, it surpasses all martial arts. It's the number one most. And an elite wrestler can learn jujitsu. Okay. An elite grappler can, you could easily teach them how to do head and arm chokes, triangles. All that.

[1:13:40] I don't recall that. That's not – you're already used to manipulating bodies. So part of my participation in ADCC was to – [1:13:49] Represent wrestling. [1:13:51] Right. Yeah. Because the first year when I got approached to go over there, I'm like, what like, what is it? Like a submission grappling, like, like Gila's grappling, Gila's Jiu Jitsu. They're like, hey, listen, here's what we're going to do. We're going to give you X, you know, come over. And it wasn't a ton. It was like $15,000 to go over. [1:14:10] And I was like, okay. I was like, all right. He's like, fuck, I don't know. And while you were fighting. Yeah, while I was fighting. And so I'm like, okay. I just go. Just as a surprise. It was one of those where I was like. [1:14:24] Okay, now that it's explained to me, I go, well, wrestlers need to be represented there, right? Yes. And so I go over there, and it was one of those things where it's like – [1:14:34] Well, I can actually show everybody here in this world that thinks their shit's dominant. Like, no, this is a skill set you need. You need elite wrestling skills, right? You can have jujitsu, black belt and all this stuff. [1:14:49] When you're a small business owner, you're always looking for the next big thing. Whether you're a gym owner looking to expand, a store stocking up for a busy season, or a restaurant owner planning a new menu. [1:15:00] You'll always need capital to grow. [1:15:02] But traditional banks are making it harder than ever to secure a small business loan. [1:15:07] That's why thousands of business owners trust Cardiff for same-day funding.

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[1:17:05] Yeah. [1:17:10] Benoit Saint-Denis is a French Special Forces guy. He's a hard motherfucker. And so he did stand with Mauricio for a little bit. He got dinged up a little bit. But once he got him to the ground, it was just full domination. And then it left everybody in this position where we were looking at Mauricio Rufi as being like, that guy's a future world champion. To like, oh, no, like that gap's too wide. Yeah. Like he's got to learn so much to be competitive with the elite. Now they're going to know. Yeah. Imagine like Camaro in his prime. [1:17:40] No, forget it. And that's that gap we were talking about. There's no way to fucking make that up. There's not enough time in your career to be able to do that. Kamaru is like 38 now, okay? And he just fought Joaquin Buckley and dominated him. And Buckley is another one who is this guy who is dominating everybody at 170. He just knocked out Wonderboy. We're like, this fucking guy might be the one. And then all of a sudden, 38-year-old Kamaru Usman shows how fucking important wrestling is. [1:18:10] It's everything. It's everything. Because you can be defensively responsible. He's very defensively responsible standing. Other than the Leon Edwards kick, he very rarely gets cracked. Gilbert got him a little and dropped him, but very rarely gets in trouble standing. [1:18:27] But once he gets you, the gap is so big. You can't make it out. The gap is so big. Yeah. And, again, this is one of these things where fundamentally also wrestling gives you a cardio base. Yeah.

[1:18:40] That you can build off of. Yeah. Not only because that's the other missing component, right? It's like this because at an elite level, it's fucking intense. It is really intense. Like Kurt, when he was on your show, he's talking about, yeah, I trained till exhaustion and then I trained. [1:18:56] You know, it's like that's how he because at one point my Kurt and I were competing against each other like 93, 94. I just I just was bigger, stronger. And and I could just defend his attacks. But he won the Olympics with a broken. Yeah, fuck, man. With a broken neck. Come on. With a broken neck. I was there at nationals when he literally hit the mat. And I'm like, like literally I watched when he when his neck broke at freestyle nationals. [1:19:26] and he gets arm thrown and his head gets almost like separated. It was nasty. And I'm in the stands going, oh, fuck, he's not going to be in the trials. Like, there's no fucking way he's going to be in the trials. [1:19:39] And sure enough, fucking like five weeks later, he's in the trials. I'm like, what the fuck, man? There's no way he should be fucking able to wrestle. There are guys like that in the world. [1:19:51] And people need to know. [1:19:53] You need to know there's levels to everything and there's levels to mental strength. There's levels to guys who just will go. And it's really kind of a crying shame. Look, he had an amazing career in WWE. He's loved by everyone. Everybody loves him. That's great.

[1:20:10] But it kind of sucks that people don't know. Like, at real wrestling, that guy was the shit. Oh, my God, man. He was the shit. [1:20:20] He was so good and small for a heavyweight. He was so – so he was always undersized. Yeah. But, like, the years that I beat him and then 95 when we wrestled in the freestyle nationals, and I had beat him four times in a row at that point. So we wrestled in the 95 freestyle nationals, and I get a hold of him for the first time, and something was different. [1:20:44] I was like, oh, fuck, like wrestling going, oh, man, something's different. [1:20:49] with Kurt and he ends up beating me in the first national nationals in 95 and I'm like oh fuck there was just something different I'm like because he he could stay on an attack longer stay on an attack longer he was stronger he hit a gear that I didn't fucking have wow like I go oh fuck like looking back and I'm going oh shit I totally missed that like most guys at at 220 pounds which you're wrestling at they they would have these attacks that [1:21:19] you hold on to you and then initiated an attack. Kurt was constantly probing and attacking and attacking. Which was the benefit of being lighter. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Lighter and quicker. Lighter and quicker. But still wicked strong. Oh, my God. He could still get in. So it was these attacks that he just sustained and he just wear you out of position. So it just counts and attack, attack, attack. And all of a sudden it was just this little angle that he was hunting for the whole time. And then he hits that attack and fucking takes you down. And you're like, fuck.

[1:21:49] Like, what the fuck? It's just there's levels of drive. There's levels of discipline. There's levels of will. [1:21:58] There's levels of wanting something, and that's what scares people, I think. That's why people get really terrified of truly special athletes, because they don't want to know how lazy they really are. [1:22:11] I think it's one of the things that drives people nuts about seeing some insanely disciplined elite top of the food chain grappler or striker or whatever it is. Yeah. MMA fighter. Because it's like you don't want to know that someone's willing to work that much harder than you are. Than you ever have. Than you ever have at anything. I know. At anything. Fuck. I mean, Kurt was one of the – where he opened my eyes to her. I was like – [1:22:35] Fuck, there's another gear. I thought I was training fucking hard. That's what's crazy. We're kind of seeing... We've had this conversation recently in regards to Marab, because we're saying, okay... [1:22:48] Is Marab just physically gifted? Because I think Kane had some sort of a genetic advantage with cardio. Because DC would talk about how he would take three months off and come back in the gym and fuck everybody up with cardio drills. Somebody that size, it's an anomaly. It's an anomaly. It's an anomaly. But Marab swears that when he was young, he had bad cardio. He said, no, I smoke cigarettes. [1:23:13] I can imagine that. It's like Sakuraba smoking cigarettes. [1:23:18] at all i'm like really and it's just hard work and discipline and then so i have a bunch of friends who do 100 milers you know and uh you know i'm real good friends with my friend cam haynes and cam haynes he just did a hundred miler like two weeks before we went elk hunting like he does 100 milers all the time he's done a 240 he's what is the bigfoot 240 is that what it is he's done a bunch of these through the mountains with thousands of feet of elevation

[1:23:48] a bunch of these that are two hundred plus miles. God, that's not... [1:23:52] You've got to build up to that. But once you get to that, if you're sustaining it, you can do those things. So he does those things on a regular basis. He does multiple ones a year. So you didn't used to think that that was possible. They used to say that if you ran a marathon, you were destroyed for two weeks. No. He was running a marathon a day while he worked a full-time job. So he was getting up in the morning at dark. He was running 13 miles. He was going to work. [1:24:22] time he would eat after lunch after work he runs another 13 fucking miles he would be one where i wouldn't want to look at him because i think i'm lazy that's the thing that's why there's a thing about like i think i'm lazy and i love him he's my friend so i think i'm lazy when i when i like watch what he's doing and goggins is another one yeah oh my god is even more insane because he ain't doing it for nothing he's not preparing for elk hunting he rarely even competes in races but yet [1:24:52] level of cardio where he brings world champions like Israel Adesanya comes to train with him, and he's throwing up in a bucket. He can't keep up. And Goggins is 50. Oh, my God. He's 50. Wow. [1:25:03] How old is Goggins? 50. [1:25:07] Oh, my God. And he's got two terrible knees. Oh, my God. He's had many knee surgeries. Oh, my God. His knees are destroyed. And he does not give a fuck. He forces them to work. [1:25:18] So, again, this is like that's a level which is just exceptional. Yeah. Because there's just a weird level. It is because that's a pocket. It's just a pocket of people that have that. There's only a handful. There's only a handful like that guy because it's not just that. He broke the world record chin-up competition once. Like he's done a ton of things that are just like physically insane.

[1:25:45] You know, he was a smoke jumper. He didn't even tell anybody about it. He did it just because it was hard. [1:25:51] This is why he's famous. So while he's famous, they'd take him up in a helicopter and he'd fucking parachute him to fight forest fires. Because it was hard to do. I'm not kidding you, man. He sent me a photo once. He texted me a photo of a grizzly bear track. [1:26:07] And he goes, we just landed near this. I mean, it's a fucking track like that big. And he's out there with a backpack and a fucking shovel to fight fires. And only because it's hard. He's a multimillionaire. He's a multimillionaire who's getting parachuted to fight fires. And here's the thing, man. If I didn't talk about it and maybe I'm out of school, people wouldn't even know. [1:26:32] You have to know that. Maybe he doesn't want people to know. They need to know that. That's fucking insane. That is beyond insane. That's like one of those where it's like, you know, the wiring that exists in him. It doesn't happen by chance. That's you have this genetic ability. But he was fat when he was young and he was lazy. He was drinking milkshakes. He talks about it openly. You see, the first time he decided to enlist, when he went to run, to go running, he couldn't even run around the block. [1:27:02] He's got a shape. He has photos of it. He shows you like this is like, no, I made myself this. So this is my thinking about fighting. [1:27:09] Have we just accepted that you can't really fight full blast for five five-minute rounds? Or is it that no one has built themselves up to a level where you can? Like when you were talking about how Kurt hit a new gear. Yeah, oh my God. Or the gear that Merab is clearly on right now. Yeah. Or Hamza. Yeah. There's that gear. Yeah. What if, like, we're going to push that even further where there's guys that can sprint for five five-minute rounds? Like, there's a few flyweights that can do that. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:27:39] Yeah, he can go. He can go. He can go. So they'll eventually be... [1:27:45] A fighter that can do that. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, too. Because it's just one where, like I was saying, from where I started from 25 years ago and the training methods and how archaic they were. [1:27:55] and how little knowledge was out there. Right. Now knowledge is advancing at such a rapid rate, and they're understanding how to recover. Yes. They're understanding all these different factors that just weren't there. Yeah, and if you add in a bunch of stuff like hyperbaric chambers. Oh, all that. So these guys have access to hyperbaric chambers and training with hypoxic chambers and shit like that. There's levels and levels and levels that can be reached. [1:28:25] Yeah. [1:28:26] Like Donkey Kong. Yeah, like measure all your food, all your electrolytes, everything throughout the day. Have your sleep environment perfect. Wear a mask. I'm telling you, there's guys out there that'll do it. There's guys that'll do it. They'll do it. Well, they have to if that's where you get the edge, right? [1:28:44] Yeah. I mean, it's becoming it's becoming to a point now where the financial benefit is worth the sacrifice. Right. Yes. That you'll end up going, OK. [1:28:53] Because what started to happen when I was fighting is that once the financial piece started getting in there, it started attracting more talent. Right. [1:29:02] So that talent, it brings the level of everybody up. Yeah. And then all of a sudden it's like a little bit more money, talent that could have maybe went and did something else. They're going, no, I'm going to go do this because I can make money. Yeah, this is the thing, right?

[1:29:23] maybe, and you're thinking about what you're going to do with your career, you're [1:29:26] You could be so rich playing baseball. Oh, God, yeah. You could be so rich. If you're really good at baseball, you could be rich as fuck, and nobody's trying to kill you. Yeah. Nobody's trying to beat you over the head with elbows. Nobody's taking you down in front of everybody and humiliating you. No, fuck this. Let's play ball. Dude, seriously, I fucking play baseball on a heartbeat, man. Fuck yeah. Oh, my God. So that's the problem with MMA. It's like you hear, like, what is it to fight in the UFC? Like, what is the bottom scale? [1:29:56] that you get in the UFC in 2020. And this is not even saying they deserve more because this is just how the sport works. And it's way better in the UFC, by the way, than it is in boxing. When you watch a boxing card, most of the money's at the top. There's very little spread out. There's guys that fight in the UFC undercard that make excellent money. But [1:30:15] When you first start, you don't. I think it's like 10. It's one of those things where it's like what I expect to start at Microsoft, right? Yeah. And going, yeah, I get a million dollars a year. Fuck no. You work your way into – and that's one of the things about the sport. As long as it has the opportunity to let somebody grow into it and still give some financial incentive to grow into it, right? Right. And just one where it's like I wouldn't expect like, hey, I'm a good fighter. Pay me a million dollars. [1:30:45] Now, I wouldn't say a million dollars, but wouldn't you say, like, let's make this argument. Wouldn't you think that for young, struggling fighters, if they got paid more for fights, they could put together better camps? They could. They could get better recovery and nutrition, have less stress. Yeah. And be able to perform better so it would make the product better. So here's where my career transitioned. I call it internally funded. Yeah.

[1:31:12] My first four fights, I was using that money to get to the next fight, to get to the next fight, to get to the next fight. And all of a sudden, I get in Japan, and they pay me enough money for the one fight that the next day, I woke up and I was a professional fighter. Because it was the only thing I had to do was train fighters. [1:31:33] As a fighter. What was the biggest check you got in Japan? A little over half a million. Damn. Back then, that was a lot. Cash. Ooh. Yeah. Fucking better. How did you get it out of the country? Dude, that was... How did you get a half a million out of the country? So here's what's fucked up about it, right? So... [1:31:52] My first couple of times over there, I'm like, I put like first time I got, I put 40 something thousand in one cowboy boot with two socks. I put 40,000 in the cowboy boot with two socks. I'm serious. It was straight out of the fucking cartoons how you got paid because the next day you would go up to a room. [1:32:11] And you literally would have a room, you'd have an adjacent room, you'd see Japanese guys in black suits smoking. And then you'd have this room, which is where you get paid. They had these, you know, suitcases that had your pay, you could choose your currency. [1:32:25] Right. I'm getting paid American dollars. So David, have your contract, slide your contract over and they go, okay, this fight, you get paid. This is the dollar amount, blah, blah, blah. And they would literally take it out, count it. You would sign on it. And then they would just hand you the cash. First time they ever did that. I'm like, it's $150,000 in cash. And I'm like,

[1:32:44] Fuck. I'm like... [1:32:45] I'll be right back. I go to the bedroom that's in the hotel room, and I grab the fucking... [1:32:52] case to the pillow and i go over and i fucking just scrape the fucking money put it in the pillow case and i go okay thank you it's just so fucking go ahead i don't know what to fucking do you know i'm like down i'm like down in the elevator like fucking holding the money like i don't know what to fucking do 150 grand in a pillow case like who is that guy fucking do big [1:33:22] What did they expect you to do with it? Did they give you any advice on how to get it out of the country? Oh, no, no. That was not. That was. It was your responsibility. Oh, my God. So literally, I'm like, oh, fuck, man. I get on it. And like in my head, I'm playing all these movies, right? Like on this movie, he got caught at the border. You know, I'm like, fuck. You know, I know that's going to be this one. You know, it's like so. I end up fucking just going, oh. [1:33:46] cowboy boots tube socks like fucking 40 grand in one boot 40 grand in the other put it in the fucking and like walk and like you got anything to declare no just like walk through but realizing that eventually when i claim money um they hand a claim form they go okay you're claiming 140 000 okay thank you have a good day [1:34:06] Oh, you just have to claim it? You have to claim it. Because they want to send it. They want to send that receipt to the IRS. Oh. So when you go through customs. I thought it was just a function of not being able to take that much cash. So when you declare it, there's that situation too, right? Because everybody's going to go, where's he going to have a mail? Yeah, exactly.

[1:34:29] I guess back then, could you even go? No, you couldn't even YouTube yourself. No, no. You couldn't say, look, this is me, man. [1:34:36] Just one. No. Look, aren't I awesome? Exactly. This is how I really did win. Right. Back then it was hard to get tapes, man. Oh, my God. You know what? The example I give is like the corner video store next to the shutters where all the porn was. Yep. Right next to that was the VHS tapes. Maybe beads. So everybody can hear what you went through, you dirty pervert. You've got to go see Faces of Death. Oh, my God. That's it. Faces of Death. Oh, my God. [1:35:06] Yeah, that was right. Literally, those were where the UFC tapes were. Those were the pride tapes were. I remember I remember I was living in Hollywood. I just moved there. It was 94. It was when UFC two was available on VHS. Yeah. So I'd heard about UFC one, but I didn't see it. And then UFC two I saw on tape. I rented it from some one of those video stores and I was like, holy shit, they did it. [1:35:31] I couldn't believe him. Like, holy shit, they did it. Because this was always the dream. This was literally Bruce Lee's conversation. Dream, yeah. Bruce Lee's conversation. I mean, he was the first guy to be... [1:35:44] completely outside of the norm in terms of sticking to your style. Yeah. Because you were like a traitor if you left certain kung fu styles or certain karate styles. He was the first guy to say, no, use what's useful. Put it all together. Judo Gene LeBelle he got with. Yes. He got with Chuck Norris. He got with all these other. That was the first thing. Like the symbol is a kanji for a dragon, right? Bruce Lee was Enter the Dragon, right?

[1:36:14] Yes. And that's that. Enter the dragon. That's it. This episode is brought to you by Chime. Chime is bringing something fresh to banking. J.D. Power just ranked them the number one choice for new bank accounts in America. And that's not a small thing. That means real people, millions of them are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees and thousands of free ATMs. [1:36:44] their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category that you actually pick yourself. [1:36:51] Your savings rate, nine times the national average. That's crazy high. Go to chime.com slash Rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for more details. [1:37:17] This episode is brought to you by Blinds.com. Texas summers don't mess around with patio surfaces easily reaching 150 degrees, hot enough to make your backyard feel like a punishment. And if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Get ahead of it with custom solar shades for your den and your patio from Blinds.com. Whether you want to do it yourself or have a pro handle everything, they've got you covered.

[1:37:47] want but still have access to real design professionals. They'll even send free samples. Blinds.com has been doing this for 30 years and they back everything with a 100% satisfaction guarantee so you can order with confidence. Right now, my listeners can get an exclusive 40% off when you spend $500 or more at Blinds.com and use the promo code ROGAN40. Limited time offer, Blinds.com, promo code ROGAN40. Rules and restrictions apply. [1:38:17] Bruce Lee was the first one, if people don't realize it, he was the first one to go, "Fuck, this is incomplete." Exactly. And so fortuitous that he ran into Judo Gene LeBell. Yeah. Because I think once you grapple with that guy, you're like, "Oh my God, I'm fucking helpless." [1:38:33] And then it's just like, oh, this is super important. Yeah. You know, because like Gene was one of the first guys to ever have like a mixed fight. So there was a guy was a boxer and he had a judo gi on and he chases the guy and gets the guy into a grappling exchange and then strangles him. But he had like a boxer versus Gene. You never saw that? No. See if you can find it, Jamie. I want to say it's in the 60s. So this is going to be way back when. Way back when. [1:39:03] Mark Coleman and I did a clinic in North Carolina that was a Judo Gene LaBelle clinic that he brought us in for. What year is this? 63. Oh, my God. [1:39:17] So Milo Savage. So the boxer looks like he's OK. I remembered it wrong. The boxer's bare knuckle.

[1:39:25] And he made him wear a judo gi, though, which is how I would have said, fuck, you don't know wearing this gi. He probably doesn't understand that that's a weapon for a gene. Oh, my God. It's an extra set of hands. We didn't see him take him down. [1:39:37] Oh, that's just... Did they show him taking him down? [1:39:39] Oh, my God. Oh, don't skip through it. I'm going to see the technique. Because once he grabs it, here it is. So Milo throws it, but that's it. So once Gene's got a hold of him. Oh, it's over. It's fucksville. It's over. [1:39:50] I mean, you don't know what that even feels like until you feel it. Oh, my God. So I ruled with... [1:39:57] Higgin Machado. [1:40:00] Oh, my God. He's just putting him to sleep with a collar choke. Oh, my God. It's just brutal. Yeah, he's mangling him. Oh, my God. He's just mangling him. This poor guy. Oh, my God. [1:40:09] And Gene, his style was very, very brutal. Oh, my God. Like, he had a very almost like catch wrestling style based submission – [1:40:20] He had a lot of very, very painful moves that he would do on you. [1:40:26] Oh, my God. Can you imagine just not understanding what you're agreeing to? No, he just got choked unconscious. [1:40:33] No, I mean, you can't know until it happens. I mean, I don't know how much cross-training people did. I bet he probably thought I was just going to go in there and use my boxing. Yeah, and be good. And I'll fuck him up. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's just. [1:40:45] You don't know until you know. And then you go, wow. But it's just so wild that even at the highest levels, like at the level that you were wrestling at, a guy like Kurt Angle would go, let's check it out. Another notch. Another notch, man. And that's the crazy part. You always find, like.

[1:41:02] Like me being a fan of MMA and UFC and watching it, there's always an outlier, right? Yeah, always. Always an outlier that you go, that doesn't make sense. How the fuck is he getting to there? Yep. [1:41:17] Right? And that's like [1:41:19] But he's just found a new way to do it. He's found a new gear. He's found a new way to just go, okay, this is what I'm going to do. It's like a Dave and Goggins thing. Oh, I'm just going to run 125 miles. Yeah, and to be able to maintain that drive, that's what's probably one of the hardest things. Because you have to have almost no rest. And you're maintaining an insane drive for years and years and years while sharks are nipping at your ankles. All of it. Because they're all coming up. Yeah, all chasing you. All chasing you. [1:41:49] And everybody's scary. Well, I used to tell my fucking training partner, I'd go, fuck, the getting there, that's one thing. Fucking staying there, that's the secret. Yeah. It's so hard to stay at that level because everybody else is building on your experience, right? They're going, well, this is what he did. This is what he's incorporated. These are the things he's doing. I'm just going to build on it. Yeah. There's some weird rules to this fight that they had agreed upon too. [1:42:19] said that [1:42:20] Savage had brass knuckles in his glove. Oh! Oh, what? [1:42:24] Yeah, I start reading the rules. He couldn't punch or tackle. Sorry, he couldn't kick or tackle them. [1:42:32] And in exchange for that, Savage offered to wear a judogi.

[1:42:36] A judo gi. Oh, sorry. That's how they wrote it. Yeah. No, it's a judo gi. [1:42:43] That's a new outfit. They wrote a karate one instead because they didn't know the difference. [1:42:46] Okay, so in the parent belief that LaBelle was a Karateka. [1:42:51] So – [1:42:54] That's interesting. So he made a rule that... [1:42:58] Gene couldn't kick him. [1:43:00] So because he thought that he was going to use, he couldn't tackle him and he couldn't take him. So, kidnap, tackles or takedowns under the waist? Ooh. [1:43:10] So you had an only hip toss them. [1:43:12] Or only drag them to the ground. Everything had to be above waste. That's kind of silly. Yeah, it's really silly. Because it's one of those things where it's like Greco. Yeah. They're doing like Greco. Yeah. [1:43:22] A $1,000 bet? Yeah, to anyone who could prove that. [1:43:26] Boxer would be beat by a martial artist, I think, in a straight fight. Wow. Wow. [1:43:30] This is way ahead of its time. I wonder if the brass knuckles thing is true. Yeah, I don't know. I'll try to look that up. According to LaBelle and others... [1:43:39] He was a bad motherfucker, Gene LaBelle. Ahead of his time, again. And, again, that fortuitous meeting, him and Bruce Lee getting together. Bruce Lee was like, you know, the most famous martial artist on earth, the guys who are turning people on to martial arts, had the most open mind and had this philosophy of using everything that's useful and then meets this guy. [1:44:01] Here it is. Yeah. He would have loved MMA. Oh, my God. He would have fucking been totally jazzed on it. Oh, my God. He'd be at every fight.

[1:44:09] Yeah, that's one of those things where, you know, again, it's just somebody being ahead of their time. Way, yeah, way ahead of time. But not just that, but like the first guy that became a world famous martial arts person. [1:44:23] Like, there was no real world famous martial arts people before Bruce Lee. I mean, you'd have to be into martial arts to know about martial arts. Yeah. But Bruce Lee, like everybody knew Bruce Lee. Yeah. [1:44:36] Yeah. Changed martial arts, igniting energy. [1:44:39] martial arts all over the world. Yeah. [1:44:43] Yeah. [1:44:43] I mean, it's one of those things where I look back on it and I've read like part of part of the history and stuff. And you understand it obviously way better than I do. But, you know, like ahead of his time, just like when Gracie came along ahead of his time. [1:44:57] You know, and presenting something where he's knocking down all these stereotypes. Yeah, and they had rigid stereotypes back then. You'd have to, like, get in gang fights to protect the style that you were in. Do you know, like, so I started training at Beverly Hills Jiu-Jitsu Club, right, in California. I remember that spot. So Boss would have me out there. Avi Rubin is the guy that owned it. And I would go out there and I would teach wrestling a couple days out of the week. [1:45:27] Alec Tartar, Marco Huaz, and Pedro Hizo. They were training out of there as well. So you would get these guys, jujitsu guys, that would sit on the outside, wait until the other students were gone, draw all the blinds, lock the doors, and go.

[1:45:43] Can you teach us wrestling? [1:45:45] Thank you. [1:45:46] Because they were so afraid that if they got caught there with me, it was like a traitor. Oh, that's hilarious. Yeah. [1:45:55] That's hilarious. So you would get like... That's so crazy. It didn't make any sense to me because you would figure sharing information would be better. Yeah. And it was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Jiu-jitsu, we're not sharing shit. You can't participate. You can't. It was so fucking archaic. Like the outlook and it's like looking back and I'm going, God damn. Like... [1:46:18] Wow, that's dogma. That's like this. It's weird. Yeah. They didn't all have that, though. No, they didn't. There were some guys who were open to teaching people everything, but there was definitely some schools for a while that were holding back techniques. A hundred percent. I remember when Hoist Gracie, one of my friends said that when Hoist Gracie caught Dan Severin in a triangle, that he asked his instructor to show it to him. He's like, you're not ready for that. I'm not going to show you that. Why don't you just show him something that works? [1:46:48] round that tape probably 50 times and i still can i'm like what the fuck is he doing like what the fuck is he doing like you could figure it out like what the fuck is he doing because all of a sudden severin goes from beating the shit out of him going he's fucking tapping out yeah nuts [1:47:03] We couldn't believe it. I didn't know there was a name for it. You could submit a guy off your back with your legs? Yeah, like, what the fuck? [1:47:12] But if you look at it, like, the space where he had Dan's head and arm is, like, that big. Yeah. It's, like, that fucking, like, when you do a triangle, like, this one, that's not a very big space. It's, like, to have fucking Dan, because he's a big dude, going...

[1:47:25] Oh, I get it. And your legs, you can hold your legs in place for a long time. Your legs carry you around all day. Oh, that's like. Especially if you actually get that foot under the knee where it's like really locked in. It's not pressing on the end of your foot. You could hold on to that bitch for a long time. Oh, my God. And then he's like pulling on the fucking. I'm like, what the fuck? Nuts. Nuts. [1:47:46] Changed everybody. Like, oh my God, you could win off your back. It literally, I still remember to this day just looking at it with my mouth hanging open going, [1:47:55] I think it was one of the things that made MMA so popular because Hoist wasn't a big – he didn't look like you. No, no. So if you were dominating everybody, it would be like, Jesus, look at him. But Hoist just looked like an athlete. He was like a thin – he was 175 pounds. Oh, God. It's just so crazy. You know what's a good – So crazy. I had a conversation with Hoist probably about four or five years ago. [1:48:21] And I'd never spoken with him outside of a competition or event or anything like that. I cried. He's such a good person, man. Oh, he's a great guy. He's a great guy. Like, he was so just, like, talking to him. And he was just so... [1:48:36] powerful and so inspirational and just having this conversation with him was just like amazing. I was just left the conversation, hung the phone around going, [1:48:44] Wow, what an amazing human being. Yeah, he's a really good guy. And the most important guy ever in terms of the spread of MMA. He's the most important guy ever. Oh, prolific. Because he's the guy, when he won the first one, and you look at the way he did it, everyone's like, that guy? Yeah. And everyone was like, what's he doing? Yeah. No one knew what it was. What is this stuff he's doing to these people? The thing. Changed everything. Yeah.

[1:49:14] that it was just the most brutal person would win. It was the tank abbots. But no, no, no. There's this one guy, and he's doing everything with technique, and he's not physically imposing at all. [1:49:26] And he's handsome. He didn't make – yeah, he's good. Look at him. Handsome fella. And he wears that fancy gi thing. He's a bad motherfucker and he's choking everybody out. It's incredible. Watching that for the first time, literally it was like, oh, this is fucking new. Yeah. Like this is – because you've never seen it before. No, nothing like it. Yeah. And then the sport explodes. [1:49:56] come sanctioned. Yeah. Because boxing was very threatened by it. Everybody was. They had businesses with people. And then there was so much bullshit. They kept it. It was out of New York until like 10 years ago or something. So we were on, me and my brothers, we were on our way to see... [1:50:13] a UFC event in New York and it got canceled and it got moved down south. Yes, to Dothan, Alabama. Yes. UFC 12. Yeah, yeah. [1:50:23] We're on our way to go see it. Uh... [1:50:27] I was on my way to work at it. Oh, my God. That was the first one I was going to work at. Oh, my God. Yeah, and it got moved. Yeah, it got moved. And so New York was like, nope. Nope, ain't having it. Ain't having it. Ain't having it. Well, they kept it out for the longest time, though. There was the guy who was really fighting to keep the UFC out of New York. Eventually, he got brought up on corruption charges. Oh, no. Shocker. Yeah.

[1:50:57] They also owned hotels. They didn't have unions. Exactly. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was a lot. A lot going on. A lot that makes you go. You know, I went to the first sanctioned. The UFC flew me out to go to in New Jersey when they had their main, main, main card in New Jersey. Their first big event that was sanctioned by the New Jersey Boxing Commission with Tito. And they flew me out to that event. [1:51:23] Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. [1:51:24] Yeah, it flew me out to that event. And actually, this is at the time they offered me to fight. After that, they offered me to fight Pete Williams. [1:51:33] Ooh. [1:51:35] And it was one of those where they go, yeah, we're offering to fight people. You might have to take a little bit of pay cut, but you have to believe in what we're doing. And I'm like, okay, what's the pay cut? [1:51:45] We'll give you like an appearance fee of like 15 grand. [1:51:48] To fight? To fight. 15 grand? To show up. [1:51:53] And then it would be doubled if I won, and I'm like... [1:51:55] I'm making... [1:51:56] You know, a lot more in Japan. Like, why would I go do it? [1:52:02] That's crazy. Yeah. That's a terrible offer. Yeah. That's one of the worst offers I've ever heard. And it's one where the whole idea behind it would be, hey, we just, if you believe in us and you believe in the director, you're going, look, we just got sanctioned in New Jersey. Right? Yeah. So that's the steps we're taking to move this to Vegas and to do this. [1:52:26] And one is like, you know, like most fighters, it's like I have X amount of fights and I don't have more.

[1:52:32] I only have X so that would have been one off my X number and I'm like oh man I can't do it and they only ask once [1:52:40] At that time, the UFC was like, we're going to ask once. [1:52:44] And that's it. Okay. Yeah. Just leaving that alone. Just leave that one alone. That one's like, okay. Yeah. Why not? Why not ask me a second time? Why would we negotiate? I don't know. If you were at Pride then, right? So like what year are we talking about? 2002. Okay. So this was when the UFC was still hemorrhaging money. Yeah. And damn that crazy. Yeah. Hemorrhaging money is still... [1:53:09] Oh, gosh, man. It should have failed. [1:53:11] It could have. I mean, one is they didn't have – yeah, if anybody else was – yeah. Because that's crazy. They had no idea how much money you were getting in Japan. Oh, they had no clue. They had no clue. That's nuts. So you know what's crazy with Japan? Here's what I ended up doing. I said, listen. I said – they said, what do you need? [1:53:27] And I said, I need consistency. [1:53:29] And they go, okay, what does that look like? And I said, pay me X. [1:53:33] per month. [1:53:35] And then every time I fight, pay me a bonus on top of that. And they go... [1:53:40] Okay, how much do you need? And I said, okay, I need this amount per month. And they go... [1:53:44] Okay. [1:53:46] And that was just another stabilizing thing where I knew that every month I had X amount of dollars coming in that I could pay my bills. I could do my stuff, not worry about that because it allowed me to transition to like, it's not a hobby. [1:54:00] You know, I'm not like fighting and then I go to work.

[1:54:03] It's like this is what I do for a living. I was at the point of thinking about money investment. [1:54:10] like by giving them more money and they'd get better camps, wouldn't you think the product would be better? Yeah. [1:54:16] I mean, I don't like to think of people as products, but the show, the program. It is. The program. The program. Now, I guess you don't have to pay for it. You're going to just pay for the subscription to Paramount, which is pretty badass. Yeah. Where you don't have to pay for a pay-per-view every time. Yeah. [1:54:32] you know, [1:54:33] If they had more money, they'd be able to do a better camp. They'd be in better shape. All the way around. All the way around. They'd be better recovered. They have better nutrition. It's investing in what your product is. And your product is elite athletes. [1:54:48] elite athletes in order to get elite athletes they need funding right they need tools the only way they can get tools is through money you know better coaches better recovery facilities but and and i don't know that the the you know i obviously let me ask you this if you're if you were like looking like say if your son wanted to start fighting or someone wanted to look to you would you if you were giving a young fighter advice would you say go right into the ufc [1:55:18] Best case scenario is go into another organization like the PFL, build your style up, build it up on maybe a little slightly lower level of competition, although not necessarily. Yeah. Still elite guys. Yeah.

[1:55:34] Submission grappling. [1:55:36] That's literally a go ghost. You fundamentally, you need to build a base of what you what you're going to become. Right. So submission, grab ADCC. If a young kid, like 16, 17 year old kid, even 18, 19, 20 year old kid, I go, you need submission grappling because you can participate in those at a competitive level that teaches you how to compete. It teaches you how to prepare to compete. [1:55:59] Right. And it teaches you without the impact of striking and punching and all of this. So that's like the first foundational piece. And this is just my opinion. Right. Foundationally is like if you you have to have a mechanism out there which allows you to compete without having the physical impact that fighting does. So that would be the first thing like submission grappling, ADCC stuff. [1:56:29] and it starts building that base. And then you start adding pieces and going, okay, I understand this. Let's add the striking components and do it now. And let's do these little like PFLs or let's do this, let's do that. And it just allows you to build out something where you're not just throwing into the fire because that shit doesn't work. [1:56:48] I mean, the fighters have become so good now that you can't just throw somebody in there because you get fucked up. It might fuck your confidence up. And I just I'm done. I ain't ever doing this. You could definitely reach an opponent that you shouldn't be reaching. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I wonder that if you also if you build yourself up in another organization, then...

[1:57:09] Obviously, you have at least a name, and the hardcore fans know who you are. So like Rainier DeRitter is another example, who's elite right now. I say middleweight, but I can't believe he's really a middleweight. He's so fucking big. But he's a fantastic grappler. But he was already a champion in one. So he's a champion in one FC. And then when he comes over to America and he starts fighting for the UFC, people are already hyped for him. So he's like immediately. [1:57:39] Getting tossed in there with Kevin Holland. Yeah. Immediately getting tossed in there with, like, very elite fighters. [1:57:45] And so, like, maybe there's an argument for if you were, like, managing a fighter. Saying, like, don't just, if you fight well in the UFC, you might be three fights in in the waters that you really can't swim in. Yeah. Because the level gets high very fast. Oh, it does. It does. Like, maybe you'd be better off getting a few years in at a different level of competition to really tighten your skills up and make sure that when you finally do run into. You've been ringside for this. Yes. [1:58:15] young fighter when he clicks and he gets it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he understands how to compete at that level. It's brilliant. It's amazing. Like watching it, you're like, oh my God, he's like, he's in there. Oh my God. It gives me goosebumps to think about it because it's that moments that I can look at and go, [1:58:33] Oh, fuck. [1:58:34] And, you know, it's a beautiful creation. It's like a testament to the amount of hours worked. Like, you know it better than anybody alive. When you see someone perform at like a super elite championship level, you go, you know how hard that motherfucker had to work to get to what you're seeing right now?

[1:58:51] It's even, and this just brought this up just as a thing, like DJ playing me in the movie. [1:58:58] You just don't get there. Right. [1:59:00] It doesn't happen by magic, right? That's fucking work. That's work. For him to become you, he became you. He got all of your mannerisms down. Like down. Not like a simile, a facsimile. Like creepy down. Like he even said, he fucking walks like me. He even got my little fucking walk. He did get to walk like you, man. I'm like, where do you hire a walk coach? The crazy thing is that story was made for him. [1:59:30] Yeah, it was. That it was made, man. Because you have to be that big to sell that. Yeah. And you can't get that big that quick. It should take you forever. No. So we were talking about this the other day with DJ is that, like, there's, like, you know, through the history of, like, you know, movie making, there's been actors that have, like, I'm getting big. And they go eat, you know, Ben and Jerry's ice cream. And then there's, like, watching the whole transition of what DJ was doing and how he's, like, well, I just don't need to be big. Because that's one thing. [2:00:00] but put on quality of what I'm doing. And so it's these fast twitch. It's like a wrestler, fast twitch fibers. You look at him and go, [2:00:07] Oh, shit. He just didn't get big. He put on specific muscle for what he was doing, you know, and to be able to go through everything and understand going. He secluded himself. Yeah. [2:00:17] He literally locked himself away for 11 weeks up in Vancouver and didn't bring his family up, which I guess he normally does, and just went through his training camp.

[2:00:27] Jesus. Like going, like going, fuck. Okay. You know, like every day, same routine, get up to the same routine, do this. I was up there for fight week, got all of his stunt guys all like, this is, this is foundationally cause I'm not going to teach him wrestling 25 years of wrestling in fucking a month, right. Or two weeks or a week or an hour. It's like, okay, but let's get foundational pieces. [2:00:50] Right. Because the people are going to watch it. They can look at the film and tell whether you put the work in or not. Right. [2:00:57] Especially someone like you. Oh, God. Yeah. It was one where that was the biggest deal for Benny is to be able to shoot these scenes without stunt double. [2:01:06] because it just detracts from what he's trying to do as a filmmaker. How do you shoot this whole entire... Well, I'm going to give DJ foundational pieces of changing your level for a double. Here's where you get... And certain foundational pieces you have to have... [2:01:24] like I told them, once you get to a certain point, everything from that point on is your own. It's like when you watch wrestlers going, oh, he changes his level. And then all these little nuances, that's individual. That's individualized. Like Michael Jordan, it's like the structure for a jump shot is the same, right? But all these little nuances of like how to get to the position to hit a jump shot, that's Michael Jordan. Right, right. So I go like when I shoot a double leg, like lowering your level, that's foundational, fundamental, right? [2:01:54] out, my arms out, in tight. That's fundamental. But once I hit the person with the attack, right, double A, everything from that point going on is my own. Whether I tip him this way, tilt him this way, run him forward, run him backwards, sit down, change it. It's all these little new... I go, we need to do foundational, and then you're good.

[2:02:13] so it was a lot of work for him to get to that foundational point and once he got there it was like okay you're good [2:02:21] It looked very realistic. The fight scenes were excellent. Yeah. It was like really well done to the point where it looked like the historical fight. Yeah, they did. And again, this is Benny, you know, just like him and how he wanted to shoot it. I really appreciate that because it's like that's hard to do. It's hard to really capture. Like you watch a documentary or a docudrama rather on a person's real life when that person's a famous person like yourself. And I've seen you compete for decades. I'm like, I've seen it. [2:02:51] fights, they got it. They got it real close to that. To the point, like, wow. Yeah. [2:02:56] This is – it's really well done. And it also – like, it looks realistic. It doesn't look – you know, sometimes fights look a little corny. Oh, my God. That was the one thing we were talking about. There's always going to be a space for a Rocky fight, right? Sure, sure. Literally. Nothing wrong with Rocky. Nothing wrong at all. But that's not the film they were shooting. They were shooting. Like, this is – how do we create something that pays homage to? Yeah. And something you can build off of and somebody can look at it and go, oh, wow. [2:03:26] I think it's important if we're talking about Rocky, though, we have to say Rocky 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, whatever the fuck they got out to. But Rocky 1 was real. Oh, my God. I literally remember being in the theater and literally watching it and just like as a kid watching it and like I wanted to be Rocky. Dude, I drank a raw egg and I ran around the block as soon as I got home. Oh, yeah. 100 fucking percent. I mean, you're like, holy shit. That was a great movie. Oh, unbelievable.

[2:03:56] They didn't push him out. They didn't want him to play the lead. [2:03:59] He wrote that movie. Oh, my God. He won an Oscar for that, right? It was amazing. Yeah. It's a great movie, and it's a weird movie. It's a weird movie. It is. It is. Because that's the classic underdog. Yeah. Overachiever. [2:04:13] But he doesn't win. There are guys like that, man. And that's what's crazy. There's guys that are hyper fucking talented. But for whatever reason, they just never... [2:04:24] Buster Douglas. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Buster Douglas. Buster Douglas got it together for one fight against Mike Tyson and pieced him up. Yeah. And did it artistically. Yeah. He was hitting him with a jab followed by a left hook. Just whap, whap. And it was beautiful. The movement. [2:04:41] Wasn't that in Tokyo? [2:04:43] I believe it was. Yeah, Tokyo Dome. Yeah, I believe you're right. Yeah. Yeah. [2:04:47] That was one of the craziest fights. Yeah. I'll never forget that. I'll never forget that. Because his mom had died. Yeah. And he just got it together for this one fight. Wow. [2:04:59] And if it was one fight, he showed everybody what he had. Yeah. It was amazing. Never to be repeated. Never. And then Holyfield knocked him out in the next fight. Yeah. [2:05:06] Yeah, gosh damn. But like that one fight, man, he got it together and you go, wow. [2:05:12] So there's guys like that out there that are supremely talented, but for whatever reason, they just never sustain, never can keep it together. It's a mental thing. It has to be. I mean, all of it is, right? I mean, just like you're saying, like the outliers, it's a mental thing that they have a level or a gear they can get to that everybody else just can't.

[2:05:33] It has to be or there's got to be something, something they're doing that's so different. [2:05:40] And everybody's trying to figure it out. Like, what is he doing? Yeah. And it seems to boil down to almost always dedication. [2:05:48] Like how dedicated are you to it? And are you so dedicated that you're really willing to objectively look at what you do good and what you're not so good and change that and fix it and really tighten down your diet and really get religious with your supplements? [2:06:08] to be able to be [2:06:10] just have this self perspective, right? Yeah. This in-depth honesty. Because a lot of it, like, I literally, before Chris Campbell, right, I was just talking about, I thought I was training fucking hard. [2:06:21] I thought I'm training fucking hard. And he just grabbed me by the hand. He goes, no, let me show you what hard is. Right? [2:06:29] And so it was this routine where it's like in college, my senior year, 6 a.m., [2:06:34] get up. He would pick me up. And I wouldn't be a minute late. I had a chair that I put next to the door. [2:06:40] that I slept in for the last, because one time being late, he just throttled me. And I'm like, that ain't never happened again. That ain't fucking ever happened again, man. You slept in the chair? I slept in the chair next to the door. You know, I'd be like, all right, fucking, because he would just give two beeps, beep, beep. And like, all right, I'm up, you know, and fucking out the front door. We'd go to the gym, we'd train in the morning. So we'd do wrestling drills, stuff like that. And then we could do cardio or strength. He would go to work. He was a full-time attorney.

[2:07:10] all day, I would start practicing with the wrestling team, warm up, and then I'd wait for him to get off of work five o'clock. And then we train for a couple hours and then get up and repeat. But it's this level of intensity with everything had intention. There wasn't anything that was left without intent. Right. You know, from how we drilled, how we trained, everything was very focused and intentional. There wasn't anything like, I'm going to do this today. You [2:07:40] this [2:07:42] This is why you're doing that. This is why you're doing this. And that's the difference. That's the difference. It's this intention of every single thing you're doing has this intention for an end purpose. [2:07:54] Mmm. [2:07:56] You know who Gordon Ryan is, right? Yeah. That's Gordon's belt up there. When... [2:08:01] Gordon trains 365 days a year. [2:08:03] Yeah. He doesn't take any days off unless he's injured. And if he's injured, he'll still be on the mats watching. [2:08:10] Watches everybody. He says, I'm still thinking about Jiu-Jitsu. That's intention. And it's not just training like hard sparring. It's going over technique, going over counters, tape study. All of it. All day. And that is... [2:08:23] Somebody who's living their life intentional, right? Everything has a end purpose. Everything. And it's why he's been able to do what he's been able to do. I mean, I've looked at it going, if he existed when I was doing ADCC, I would have never won. [2:08:37] It's just a different level. And that's a skill set I had wrestling. But he's got a skill set that incorporates that plus 20 things more. And it's nuts because he gives away the formula. He's like, no one's willing to do it. No. And he just says it with confidence. He goes, I put on all my videos out there for free. You can watch. Isn't that fucking funny, though? I mean, he puts techniques up all the time and shows you how to do stuff.

[2:09:07] DVDs still. It makes millions just selling instructions because that's how much he knows about jujitsu. [2:09:13] Oh, my gosh. And he's only 30. Yeah. And everybody considers him the greatest of all time. You know, it's crazy. It's funny to just wrap this up. So when DJ and I connected again in 2023, when this got kicked off at Green Light for the film, he sends me this picture of Panther... [2:09:32] videos, Panther martial arts, seek and destroy videos that are on a VHS tape. He's got like 10 of them in the picture, right? And it's Mark Kerr, seek and destroy. Benny had found them and sent them to DJ and he's like, study him. So it's this videotape series that I did for Panther production. Here it is, Sam. Whoa. So this is one of these things where- Seek and destroy. Oh my God. No holds barred fighting techniques. Yep. [2:10:02] So DJ sends me this picture, and it was fucking – I was literally like, okay, I'm in. Dude, look at the size of you. You look like a superhero. [2:10:13] Oh, dude, I had such... This is... I call it phone booth fighting, right? Like, I could... [2:10:22] In a very small space, I could generate a fucking shit ton of power. Oh, dude, you were a freak. Shit ton of power. You were a legitimate freak. [2:10:29] And I remember watching you fight the first time. I was like, that's going to be a real problem. That's going to be a real problem. What do you do with that? It's one thing that you're giant, but it's also that you've got elite wrestling skills on top of that. Like, oh, fuck. Oh, shit. Yeah. This might be a problem. Yeah. Oh, my God. All these dudes in karate gis are like, God damn it. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. You're like, Phil, I'm turning in my gi. And then the problem with the gi is anyone can grab it. Yeah. It makes wrestling even easier.

[2:10:59] Still, I think there'll probably be a few people that get choked out. But also a lot of people get taken down a lot easier. Yeah. So even so. Because you can grab the gi. Higgin Machado. You have to be able to grab the gi. Higgin Machado, I've rolled with him. Right. John Jock and Higgin. And Higgin, it was like giving him an extra set of hands. Yeah. I go, dude, I literally, so on Torrance, when I train with him, there's like, there's one room and then another room and there's a door between them. [2:11:29] stacked up in the door watching us train. And it was like five minutes with a gi, and I just looked at Higgins and I go, I ain't never fucking wearing this thing again. [2:11:39] Take the gi off, man. Here, have it back. Because... [2:11:43] It's like, fuck. It's a weapon. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's a weapon, especially the guy who's got really good collar chokes. Those guys are terrifying. They get that thumb behind your neck, and you're like, oh, Christ. It was like he was getting me in position. He would tie up an arm with a gi, and I'd be like, fuck, now he's got – like, what the fuck, dude? It's a totally different thing. You have to really be aware of grips, and you can't explode your way out of stuff. [2:12:13] out of every position with technique. You can't just pull your arm out. Your arm's stuck, so you have to figure out the right way to do this, where you don't expose yourself because they have too much friction. It's been a minute since I've been, and I'm like, no friction. [2:12:28] I mean, you literally... Yeah. It's all friction. I mean, it's like you have no slip. Yeah, it's a problem. Yeah.

[2:12:34] If you have won. But the thing. Eddie Bravo always used to say. Why would you want to train in that for MMA though? He's like. That would be crazy. That would be like saying. If you play racquetball. You're going to be better at tennis. Yeah. No. Play tennis. You have to play tennis at an elite level. You should be. [2:12:49] all your grips should be based on control of the body, gable grips and underhooks and overhooks. And you can't. [2:12:56] Because that's the one thing that we saw with a lot of jiu-jitsu guys in the early days. They were so used to grabbing collars and grabbing sleeves that when they went to the ground, they lost 30% of their game. Yeah. [2:13:08] Yeah. And that's, again, that's the evolution of, it's why like foundationally gi-less grappling, right? Because it just teaches you fundamentally what you're about to do if you're going to get an MMA. Yes. Right? For sure. Foundationally, it's like that's where you need to start. Yeah, I think so. You know, because even to the point where it's like, because you have a lot of wrestling in there and you have a lot of moves. Like my first times at Abu Dhabi, the only thing I kept saying is small moves, small moves, small moves. [2:13:38] Like I literally, if I felt uncomfortable, it was these small, tiny moves. Right. It wasn't this like explosion because it's like, fuck, I don't know what I'm going to explode into. Right, right, right. So it's foundationally, it's, yeah, gis are, it's a different sport. It's a totally different sport. But I think there's something to be gained from cross training with the gi. I think the gi is like, it's a fun thing to do. And in most street fights, the realistic thing is you're going to be wearing clothes. Yeah. Especially if you're fighting in a place where people are wearing winter coats. Oh, God. Oh, my God.

[2:14:08] They'll be amazing. So much stuff to do. A smorgasbord. So many things to choose from. So much control available. But if you really ever wanted to think about competing, I would say just go right into wrestling. Wrestling and jiu-jitsu. Learn that stuff first. That's foundational. You have to. God, man, I can't believe you've been involved in this this long ago. I know. It's so long. [2:14:30] I mean, you're a spectator of history. [2:14:32] I know. I know. I feel super lucky. Incredibly fortunate. You know what I felt the most fortunate? During COVID. Because everything was locked down. You couldn't do anything. But the UFC was still putting on shows and you'd get tested and you'd have to get tested when you got there. Everybody's wearing a mask until you sit down next to each other. But we were in the Apex Center. [2:14:53] And I got to watch like world championship fights with no audience. I was like, this is crazy. And there's only one of maybe there's 100 people in the whole room that are getting to watch these fights. [2:15:05] When we saw Stipe fight Francis and Gatto, when Francis beat him for the world title, there was no one in that room, man. [2:15:11] Wow. It's crazy to watch. Wow. If you watch it today, it's such a weird video because – [2:15:18] It's... [2:15:18] an elite performance by Francis in his prime where he's like seek and destroy going after Steve and patient. You know, it's when DC started calling him patient Francis. Yeah. And dude, there's no crowd. [2:15:29] And it's kind of eerie. Wow. It's eerie. Wow. [2:15:32] Because when he KOs him and you hear people go, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's like people are kind of freaked out. Wow.

[2:15:39] That's unique. It's very unique. And I was like, wow, there's so few people that get to be here. Oh, my gosh, yeah. While this fight is happening. [2:15:50] Like when Justin Gagey fought Tony Ferguson. Oh, my God. We were in an empty arena. Wow. The arena was completely empty. It was only the UFC crew and only the people that were working around with the UFC. Oh, my God. There was no crowd. [2:16:04] Wow. Wow. [2:16:05] And if you watch that today, it's bizarre. Oh, my God. So I even thought, like, my first fights in Japan, how quiet the crowd was. [2:16:12] But not that quiet. There was no one there. The Justin Gagey, Tony Ferguson fight. There might have been, I don't know, 100 people, 200 people in the whole fucking arena. [2:16:22] It was nuts. It was like totally quiet. Oh, my God, that would be so spooky. It was crazy. [2:16:27] It was eerie because you heard the slaps of the punches and kicks way different. Oh, I bet. Because there's no people cheering because there's always people cheering. Yeah. It's always this background noise. The UFC like. Yeah. And you hear thuds and stuff. And I hear a little better than most people because I'm wearing the headphones and the microphones are in the. [2:16:48] But you don't hear it like you hear it when there's an empty arena. When there's an empty arena, you hear the thud. I need to go back and watch that. The thud of shin shitting me. Oh, my God. The thud. So I've sat there with a group of people that are like watching somebody check a kick in here shin on shin. Yeah. And just me, nobody in the room getting it but me going, oh, yeah. Like, ow. I don't care. Like, ow. I don't care. That fucking hurt. That hurt. I don't care. You can poker face that shit all you want.

[2:17:18] It fucking hurt. That's like a big fuck you. Like, I know that hurt, dude. [2:17:22] I know that hurt. I know that hurt. I mean, the COVID times were dark times, but it did make me feel very fortunate to be working for the UFC because to be there live as a, you know, a person who's like, just love this sport since it first started to be there live while those fights were going on like this is nuts. That is just one of those where, you know, again, money can't buy that. I mean, it's just one of those experiences like like I've had a couple through this process of filmmaking. [2:17:52] where it's like, [2:17:53] No money on earth could buy that experience. Like in Venice, standing there, like literally, like I'm crying because like I said, it was at the end of that, it was like therapy watching me and literally settling into like, wow. [2:18:05] Man, I was a dick. [2:18:07] You know, I just was really hard on everybody around me. And then having Benny next to me, DJ next to me, feeling their emotions and feeling DJ's emotions because they'd never experienced anything like it either. [2:18:19] you know. Well, I think anybody trying to do what you were trying to do has got to be a bit of a dick. I don't think, as nice as you were, and you were always super friendly, there's, [2:18:33] You're doing something that's really insane. Yeah. You know, you're cage fighting for a living in front of the world in your underwear. Yeah. Oh, my God. I tell people, it's hot pants. I go, fucking, I'm in hot pants. You want to know the truth? It's like in hot pants, you know? I mean, you were a human superhero, built like a human superhero, and you're fighting for, who the fuck expects you to be normal? No. They do, though. That's what's crazy. I'm like, no, I was a selfish, self-absorbed. And I look at it, I go, okay, all right, I can accept that.

[2:19:03] and understand that I was trying to raise everybody up. And if you couldn't get with a fucking program, I didn't have patience for you. Well, you had gone through, like when you were talking about these camps, and you had gone through the kind of training that's required to reach the level that you had reached. You know what's in there for everybody. And people that don't want to come aboard, you get mad at them. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's like, you're going to hold me back. Yeah. And that's part of it, like, understanding, like... [2:19:32] Like I just didn't have patience for it because I didn't have time. I didn't have time for it. Right. Yeah. It's understanding like I know that X – I only have X amount of fucking fights in me. Right. And I got to try to maximize – and that's not going to work. [2:19:44] You know, because a lot of that was assembling people that were accountable to me. [2:19:49] Right. And, and, you know, money can hold people accountable in a certain degree, but at a certain point, it's like, you know, the training partners I had around me, um, it was like, Hey, I can help you get to the next level. Mm. [2:20:04] Right. That was kind of the enticement. Yeah. You just need to make a commitment to me. [2:20:09] Right, right, right. [2:20:10] Right. Make a commitment to me and I'll give you that little piece that you're missing. You know, and that was kind of the part that I helped, you know, go, OK, my training partners be accountable to me and I'll help you with that little missing piece of how to be a professional. You know, and so I just didn't have patience. I didn't have patience. And it's one where I'm nice, I'm cordial, all this other stuff. But, you know, at the end of the day, I was like I was demanding. Do you think that maybe that.

[2:20:38] that kind of drive played a factor in you having an issue with substances? Yeah. Because you just wanted relief? Yeah. Maybe relief from the mindset? Yeah. You know, part of it was that – [2:20:51] You know, you almost, like, I almost buy into the bullshit, and I can never be this perfect being that I was trying to be. And so I'm always falling short. And that feeling of always falling short in this, just, like... [2:21:05] You know, I couldn't live up to what I thought I needed to live up to. Right. And so that was hiding. And, you know, I'm just going to get a little relief from it. You know, it's going to so I can unplug. Right. You know, and it was just one of those where it started with pain, you know, realistically. It started like, fuck, I'm doing something that inherently I'm going to have pain. Yeah. You know, and it was this progression from that of like, you know, from pain to I didn't know what an opiate addiction was. [2:21:35] Did... [2:21:36] Back when this was all going on, the opiate epidemic had not occurred yet. Yeah. And people did not know... [2:21:43] And they were also telling a lot of people when they were taking these pain medications that they were not addictive. Not addictive. Yeah, they argued in court that it was not addictive. Oh, my God. Which is really crazy. Which I didn't understand. Well, fuck, I didn't understand. Like, I didn't understand. Like, when I took it to the level that I took it, when I stopped, tried to stop, I didn't understand what being dope sick was. I didn't understand, like, getting, like, physically sick.

[2:22:09] Because I don't have the substance in my body. Like I would get diarrhea. I couldn't walk from here to the end of the room without having to sit down for a half hour. It's almost like a parasite. It is. It's almost like a parasite that needs you to keep feeding it to stay alive. Because like how else could getting poison out of your body be bad? Yeah. Yeah. [2:22:29] How nuts is that? [2:22:31] That you want it bad? You want to get the poison back in you? Like, what kind of weird biological mechanism is that? That crazy part is the first recognition of, like... [2:22:43] That I'm stuck. [2:22:44] that I don't know the answer of like, because I'm caught between, you know, like... [2:22:50] All right, I'm going through this physical withdrawal. [2:22:52] and everything else that comes with it, or I'm just going to go seek the thing that's causing the physical withdrawal because it makes me feel better. You know, so you're caught in this loop of just bullshit, right? And then you go, I'll just have a little. Yeah, just that's it. I just need to feel better just a little bit. And, you know, so it's one of those where it's like there wasn't the Internet back then. I couldn't fucking get on and, well, let's Google something, you know, it's like. [2:23:15] Wasn't that? [2:23:16] So how did you figure out that – when did you realize, like, I've got a problem? Um – [2:23:22] God, man. [2:23:24] it [2:23:25] I always from probably age 14. Really? Yeah, I knew I knew when I first drank I [2:23:35] first had a drink [2:23:36] that. [2:23:37] I drank until I was drunk.

[2:23:41] Because that was this taste of Jack Daniels, and it was like, oh... [2:23:45] This feels good. [2:23:47] It was like not a normal reaction looking back on it going, oh. So I've always had a propensity towards it. And then, you know, it functions both ways because I get addicted to the sport. I get addicted to the routine. I get addicted to getting in a ring and taking someone's will. I get addicted to the crowd, the championship, the adulations, the this. It's like that's who I am. [2:24:10] Right. Right. And it's a it's a contributed to my success, but it's also contributed to my to my demise. You know, in both ways, it's like, you know, from an early age, I understood like, hey, you know, this could be a problem, you know, and then when wrestling came along, I didn't drink during wrestling. [2:24:27] Like during that whole season, I didn't drink. You know, in college, I didn't drink during wrestling season. Like when, you know, when it's like, okay, you know, I'm in recovery. I have seven years of sobriety now. Congratulations. That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, it's, for me, it's one of those... [2:24:42] foundational things of like, oh, that's what I've been missing my whole life. [2:24:47] And you keep repeating that term for a good reason. Foundational is everything. Yeah. Like having like like morals and ethics as a foundation foundation, having your health. That's foundation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because it's one of those we're understanding, like like those are the building blocks, because if I don't have those things in place, nothing else fucking stands up. Right. Of course. You know, I mean, it sounds like the duh. No, but it's an important thing to reiterate because everybody should hear it.

[2:25:16] You know, and it's a huge part. It's a huge part. It's it with most things in life. Most things in life. You have to have structure, some kind of structure. [2:25:23] you know, figuring out like my son, [2:25:25] What makes him function? Structure. [2:25:28] he he's told me this he goes you should have been hard around me i'm like fuck i'm like okay i'm like all right i didn't i didn't know hilarious you know like i didn't know i'm gonna give you four stars dad yeah i could have given you five but you weren't fucking hard on i'm like fuck that's hilarious yeah but he functions best with structure he's just one of those individuals that are built like that right well i think part of that is kind of probably [2:25:58] and there's like some learned memory in there probably. Yeah, I would think so. I would think so. I think there is. And I don't think we totally understand where personalities come from. It's a mixture of like spirits and hormones and genetics and where you are born and what part of the fucking moon is facing this way. Oh, my God. Yeah. I always wondered if that shit's real. [2:26:20] Oh, my gosh. It's like, yeah, well, Jupiter's orbiting around my Saturn. I always wonder, like, why are they so into this? Here's something to this. [2:26:27] Because if there is, I would feel real stupid if I was ignoring it the whole time. You know what? Listening to Joe Dispenza, some of his stuff. [2:26:36] It changed my whole it's changed some of my perspective of how like just having we're energy, right? We're energy and your your emotional energy is transferred to me. It's like why I was addicted to dawn because of that exchange of negative energy, right? Yeah, back and forth. It's like being an addict, right? I'm addicted to the drama. You're also addicted to making up.

[2:26:59] Yeah, that's the other one. Yeah. Because that's a feel good too. Yeah. Right? Sometimes people want to get in fights just so they can make up. Hell yeah. I mean, it's the whole process of that fucked up shit. It's all fucked up. It's called fun. [2:27:14] Oh my God. What do you hate fun? [2:27:17] Yeah. Oh my God. So it's that really fucked up part of understanding, looking back on it going, oh shit. Bro, when you guys were fighting in the movie right before you were about to fight Love [2:27:29] It is such a crazy scene. [2:27:32] It's really well done, man. Oh, my God. It's really well done. It's how Emily flips that switch of like, fuck you, motherfucker. Yeah. Well, you wanted me to come. It's like, oh, my God. It's like, fuck. That's what does it every fucking time. It's amazing. Like that little like, oh, God, I guess I did want her to come. I'm a fucking asshole. It's amazing. Oh, my God. It's so realistic. I mean, they nailed it. They really nailed it. [2:28:02] recreated... [2:28:03] in a movie. Is it surreal? I mean, it's so surreal. I've used, I've like, I haven't found another word to explain. Right. It seems like there's not a word that they figured out for that one. There's not. Cause it's just one where it's like, you know what, on the other side of it. And this is just me going, you know what? I'm grateful. I have a sense of humility. I have a sense of just being like deep, profound gratitude that DJ, Emily, Benny, everybody involved in the film wanted to take this

[2:28:32] Yeah, it's amazing. Because I looked at it going, like, a lot of it's self-worth going insane. [2:28:36] You really want to do a movie about my life? About me? Like, what the fuck? [2:28:42] Really? And then understanding like what they see in me and the belief they have in the story and everything that's around it. Because at the end of it, it's redemption. It's like where I am today. [2:28:55] I'm so thankful that I have... [2:28:59] my health. I'm so thankful that I have my sobriety. I'm so thankful that I get to experience these things and share, you know, my experience, strength and hope, they call it right. [2:29:09] Thank you. [2:29:09] you know, with other people and give them going, look, look at all the fucking bullshit I went through and I'm on the other side of it. You know, so whatever you're going through, anything's possible. [2:29:18] Yeah. [2:29:19] Anything. [2:29:20] Truly. I mean, and... [2:29:24] The thing about what you did is that, like I said, I thought it was so brave that you did it publicly when you did the Smashing Machine documentary. And I was thinking, like, were you happy that you were getting on film so, like, maybe this, like, would make you get clean? Was there any of that? Ooh, there's a little bit of that. Yeah? Because part of it is that I didn't – at that point, the only person on the planet that knew what I was doing was Don. [2:29:50] right [2:29:51] Nobody else on the planet knew what I was doing. And... [2:29:56] So when John had put the camera down, he's like, dude, what the fuck are you doing?

[2:30:02] Like you're not being truthful with us. And I'm like, well, at that moment, I kind of went, fuck you. Get the fuck out of my house. You're done filming. And there was this moment where it was like I needed to tell somebody. And I go, fuck. [2:30:16] Okay. [2:30:17] Like... [2:30:18] Here's what I've been doing. [2:30:19] And I don't know who to tell. I don't know how to tell it. I'm just going to show you. [2:30:24] And that's when it shows me shooting up. [2:30:26] It was that moment where I'm like, you want to know what I'm doing? [2:30:29] Wow. [2:30:30] I'm going to show you. [2:30:32] because it was one of those where it's like, it felt like a weight got lifted. [2:30:37] Right. Like all of a sudden it's just like, oh, fuck. Did you ever think about not going through with the documentary? Yeah. Yeah. So here's what they ended up doing. So I didn't see one stitch of footage. [2:30:50] At all. Until I saw the complete documentary in Los Angeles at the Dolby Sound Studios. [2:30:57] So it was like a couple of years. Wow. Not a second of footage. [2:31:03] So I sit down and... [2:31:05] the documentary as it appeared on HBO, right? And the filmmakers aren't watching the fucking film. They're watching me watch the film. [2:31:14] Right? Wow. There's like eight of us in the movie theater. I get films done, lights come up, and I literally stand up, and John Greenhall goes, what do you think? And I go, what? [2:31:26] I'm going to have to get back with you. [2:31:28] And I just walk straight out. Don't say another fucking word. Get in my truck. Start driving. Back then the phones, you know, like in the car. He's calling me on the phone and he goes, you're going to be okay. I go, I have no fucking clue. I don't know. I honestly don't know.

[2:31:43] Because the agreement we had in place was I had final veto over the content of it. But he never showed you the content? [2:31:52] day I saw it in the Dolby Sound Studios in Los Angeles, the content, the whole film, I didn't see any of it until that moment. [2:32:02] So literally I drove home and John was like, [2:32:07] what i go i i you have to give me a day you have to fucking give me a day i i just fuck i said i don't know i don't know if i can go forward with that i don't think i can i don't think i can it's just too fucking much okay so you did have the power to veto yeah i did i did at the at the very what made you decide not to [2:32:24] Um... [2:32:26] John had... [2:32:28] said something to me like, um... [2:32:31] I guess it's like a... [2:32:32] a parable where it's like if you live your life and you've saved one person's life, you've had a worthy life. [2:32:40] Meaning that if somebody watches this, [2:32:43] and sees your struggles that you've gone through and sees the hope that you [2:32:48] you have in that in your recovery, it gives them hope or it gives them, because what keeps you addicted is shame. [2:32:57] The shame of what I was doing. [2:32:59] It kept me quiet. I didn't fucking... Who the fuck am I going to tell? Right. [2:33:05] Right. You don't [2:33:06] You don't want them to know. No, you don't want them to know. Like, fuck no. And so that shame is what usually keeps people... But if they see me in the film go through this process...

[2:33:19] And this deep revealing process of what was going on with me, it gives them an opportunity to go, well, I can ask for help too. When you got through the film, how long did it take you to get clean? [2:33:34] Um... [2:33:36] I got clean off of morphine, off of the new bane I was doing. [2:33:43] Right after, all the way through the Volchanchin, or all the way through the Fujita fight. And I was clean for, started drinking. [2:33:52] which is... [2:33:52] a whole nother topic, but you know, I had done narcotics in, uh, [2:33:58] You know, probably like three years after that. And then I started up again. And then it was this process of like, start, stop, start, stop, start, stop. And then the thing that predominantly dominated me was alcohol. [2:34:10] Because it's socially acceptable, easily accessible, you know, all these different factors of it. And so that's eventually, like I've said, so my mom passed away September 3rd, 1996. [2:34:27] Thank you. [2:34:28] And so my son knows this. And so my sobriety date September 4th. [2:34:34] And so my son asked me that day, September 3rd, he's like, Dad, I know you need a drink today. [2:34:41] Because your mom died, but would you stop tomorrow? [2:34:45] And at the time, I thought it was just another empty promise of like, yeah, yeah, I'll stop, I'll stop. And next day I got up and...

[2:34:54] There's just something a little different or whatever it was that day. And I stopped asking the questions, why? Because it's irrelevant, right? [2:35:02] And from that day till today, I'm sober. Wow. Yeah. [2:35:08] Makes no fucking sense. But it does. It's like you get better at sobriety just like you get better at all other things in life. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. [2:35:16] You get better at figuring out why. And, you know, there's also the reality that I think a lot of people need to take into consideration when it comes to fighting is that – [2:35:27] A lot of guys are self-diagnosing or self-dispensing people. [2:35:33] something to make themselves feel better. Yeah. Because they've taken a lot of damage. Oh, yeah. And they feel like shit. Yeah. And alcohol is a big one. Oh, yeah. A big contributing factor. A lot of former fighters become alcoholics. Cocaine's another one. Yeah. Because it's one of those where I thought, I literally woke up showing this is no shit. Like, waking up going... [2:35:53] Okay, I don't know what's wrong with me, but there's something fucking wrong. Like there's something wrong with me. And understanding like all this different stuff, head trauma and all these different things and factors, I literally thought I was... [2:36:04] like [2:36:05] going off the deep end. [2:36:07] I was like, okay, alcohol or drugs was the only relief I got for what the fuck was going on in my head. So the thing, was it past a specific fight? [2:36:18] Um, it was, it was literally towards, it was after 2006. It's like 2006, 2007, 2008. I stopped fighting in 2009. I didn't know what else to do. All my identity was tied up in being a fighter, you know, and understanding like these simple words of like fighting is what I did. It's not who I am. Right. I'm much more than that. Right. I'm much more than a fighter and understanding once I got to that point, you know, it's like, that's when some of the relief came in, but part

[2:36:48] fucking... [2:36:49] I don't know what it is. And so I was just seeking relief. [2:36:54] Because of like there's something that's fucked up in my head and I didn't know what it was. [2:37:00] Didn't know what it was. Still to this day, I look at it like... [2:37:03] I call it a God shot because it was one where it's like something needs to change because this is unsustainable. Unsustainable with the alcohol, unsustainable with what's going on in my head. And get sober, things quiet down. [2:37:16] It's actually a quiet down. That first year of sobriety, it took to clear out all the bullshit that was in my head, going, I just need neutral. [2:37:25] Right. And once I hit neutral, it's like, oh, wow. [2:37:29] I can build on this, you know, so it's been incredible. [2:37:35] It makes no sense at all, but it makes perfect sense. No, it does make sense because you're willing to articulate your deep thoughts, your very vulnerable thoughts on, you know, who you are as a guy who was, you know, one point in time when the scariest fucking human beings walk in the face of the earth. [2:37:59] man, a lot of people can get caught in that trap. They can. Don't think you couldn't. Yeah. You know, just be a little bit more compassionate and understanding and appreciate people first. [2:38:08] telling a very difficult truth about their life because I think people need to hear that stuff. They do. They do. Like I said, you know what I understood, like giving them the permission for the documentary, saying to John, going, okay, if this could change or help one person, then my life has value, right? Because I helped another person. And then when it premiered at HBO at the studios, this was like –

[2:38:35] the whole crowning moment is having like a 65 year old grandmother come over to me who I would have nothing in common with. [2:38:44] and say to me, you know what? That was beautiful. My grandson. [2:38:49] He's got a drinking problem and I don't know what to do. [2:38:52] Wow. You know, it's like this door had been opened where she felt comfortable to sit down and talk with me about her grandson. And it was like this moment of like, "Oh, fuck. This is what it's about." [2:39:06] It's about opening that door up so people can connect and go, well, if he can do it, I can tell my truth. [2:39:14] You know, because it's difficult, man. Addictions are just, I mean, shaming and they keep you in a box and it's just this, it's a horrible existence. Did anybody ever recommend Ibogaine to you? [2:39:27] No. [2:39:28] I've heard of that, though. So they're doing that now in Texas. The Ibogaine Initiative passed through thanks to former Governor Rick Perry, a Republican, who, through working with veterans, found that a lot of veterans who struggle with addiction and PTSD, that Ibogaine is incredibly effective. Wow. And it's not a recreational drug. It's not fun. No, no, no. [2:39:58] addictive pathways, like whatever the connection is in the brain that causes you to be addicted to things, it can disrupt those in a very bizarre and unique way. And it's something like 80 plus percent effective with one dose of getting people to stay off of narcotics, cigarettes, alcohol. And I think with two doses, it's in the 90s.

[2:40:21] So if you do two different... [2:40:24] The Ibogaine ceremonies. Yeah, that's it was yeah, they were going most people were going my friend Ed Clay did it down in Mexico and he even had a place that he was running down in Mexico because you couldn't do it in America. [2:40:37] Because it's illegal here. But it literally stops the train of addiction dead in its tracks. They don't totally understand how it does it, but it's very effective. I know a lot of veterans who have had relief. So they've talked about the neuroplasticity of drugs like that to create new pathways instantaneously. Yeah. I'd like to say those words, but I don't really know what they mean. You know what I mean? When I say them, I'm just faking. I know that's how you're supposed to say it, so I'll say it. [2:41:07] I don't know what the fuck's going on. What I do know is the my friends that I know that have gone and done It's been massively effective. Wow get them off drugs get them off drinking Wow get them you know They just change their perspective. They go okay. I get it now They just realized where they were tripping over their own dick like what they were doing wrong. That's incredible. Yeah quick [2:41:28] I mean, what else is like that where, like, 24 hours later, you can get a totally new perspective in life and be cured of addiction? And somehow or another, that's illegal? That's illegal, but the stuff that they're addicted to is not. Oh, my God. That's like, yeah, that's fucking bizarro land, right? Oh, my God. Total bizarro world. Yeah, none of that makes sense, man. I mean, it's just, that's, so that's a whole other rabbit hole. It really doesn't make any sense. No. Like, what we just said makes, no, it should be the opposite. Yeah.

[2:41:58] the opposite this is so stupid because it's just one where it's like if that stuff existed back then it would have cut short yeah it did exist but it just didn't exist here because we're corrupt yeah and so they're again kudos to governor rick barry because what he's done is like open the doorway to right-wing leaning people going oh maybe we shouldn't dismiss all these things that god put here on earth oh my god maybe some of these things are actually here to heal your brain [2:42:28] Yeah. [2:42:32] I'm not saying there's anything wrong with pharmaceutical drugs, but I'm saying that this also might cure you, and it's a plan. So that's, again, in the last five, six years, alternative perspectives has been just paramount in my – just in opening me up to – [2:42:52] to having a better understanding of like [2:42:55] how rigid I was and how, how just this thin line of thinking I had had for so long about stuff like this, you know? And so, you know, it's just been this incredible, um, [2:43:08] experience to get to here because I've had to open up. I've had to go, okay, I'm going to do meditation. I'm going to do this. I did meditation and... [2:43:18] for fighting, but it was visual meditation. How the fuck I was going to dismantle a dude in the ring. Right. I would sit and do, but this is meditation to access different parts of my brain, right. To try to get into Delta waves and, you know, theta, beta, you know, all these different things. So I could open different spots in my brain up, you know? And so it's just been this, you know, my wife, she's Nietzsche. I'm Buddhist. Right.

[2:43:41] You know, what is what is your whole ring? Go. She chants every morning. Duncan does that. Yeah. No. So the Buddha you have, the Buddha, the gold Buddha you have. Yeah. We have one in our house. Not quite that big. But we have. Yeah. So she's a Buddhist. And it's one of those things where she got me to start chanting. I don't do it as much now, but the first three, four years we were together, it's like I chanted with her regularly. And it's one of those where it's like harmonics and vibrations and frequencies. [2:44:11] you know, and understanding like [2:44:14] Man, we know so little, but realistically, all this stuff through, like all the different stuff they discovered in Egypt with the sound chambers and all the different things. I mean, it's a whole different thing where we just ignored. [2:44:26] Yeah. [2:44:28] And it's like, well, shit, we don't even... [2:44:31] we're so archaic in our thinking. Well, I think what happens sometimes is thinking and ideas get connected to people. [2:44:39] and you think that the ideas and whatever you think you know about – [2:44:46] history or about the way things can be done yeah like it's all it's all been solved kids yeah like settle down everybody knows like no no no i don't think they do i don't think that you should show me how they built that yeah show me who the fuck figured this out like maybe they knew about medicine yeah that you're ignoring because you can't patent it yeah these people have been making ayahuasca for 10 000 years in the jungle yeah you don't yeah don't tell me yeah oh my god yeah

[2:45:16] Settle down. There's all the things that you think are valid plus other stuff. That's the thing that people have to recognize. You can't be rigid with what you believe in because sometimes it's wrong. That's the part where I can't believe how much I've opened up and been just receptive. And a lot of it's because I'm sober and it's like, fuck, I don't know shit, man. Like when you look at the bigger picture stuff, I know so little. Dude, nobody knows shit. That's the scariest thing. [2:45:46] people pretending they've got it figured out but they're full of shit too yeah every one of us is a talking monkey flying through space that's a great way to look at it right over our head we are in a convertible organic spaceship hurling through the universe that alone once you start with that yeah that's your foundational okay this is foundational to your view of the world right oh my god the problem with us is that we don't fucking see the stars anymore that's a giant [2:46:16] ourselves up with light pollution and it's not a coincidence that the people that live in the most populated cities are the most diluted ridiculous people that are the furthest away from nature not that they're not awesome people but what i'm saying is like you you are so far away from nature you're so diluted from being like a wild animal so you know what i've actually done the last couple i've hugged trees [2:46:39] I've literally hugged trees. It feels good. It feels beautiful. Yeah, that's real. [2:46:42] It really is like walking barefoot. [2:46:46] Right. Like on grass and getting connected. And, you know, you would have said to me 10 years ago, I'm like, yeah, OK, whatever, dad. You know, but it's like, OK, who says it? Who says it's not? I think nature's a vitamin. Oh, yeah. I think. Hey, where did the term tree hugger come from?

[2:47:04] Did it come from the time where hippies were doing acid? Probably. Because then that would make so much more sense. Because if you were on acid and you hugged a tree, you would be like, oh, I love you. I love you, tree. You're so fucking amazing. [2:47:20] Yeah. [2:47:21] Oh, shit. That originated a while ago. From a series of nonviolent environmental protests in India, beginning with the Bishnoi community in 1730, who physically clung to trees to prevent them from being cut down. See, those people are probably on mushrooms. Whoa. That's why they worship cattle. That's what I think. [2:47:44] Why else would all those poor people not eat cows? Oh, my God. Cows are so good. But doesn't that make no sense? It makes no sense at all. It makes no sense. You guys have food everywhere and you're starving. Yeah, starving. And your religion won't let you eat that food. [2:47:58] Boy, okay. How'd you come to this? The only thing that makes any sense to me is those cows were giving you the mushrooms. They had to. Because that's where the mushrooms go. That's where they grow. The best source of psilocybin is cow poop. Duncan used to live in, my friend Duncan Trussell used to live in Asheville, North Carolina. And the farmers out there used to put a certain kind of feed into their diet to make sure that fungus couldn't grow in their shit. [2:48:28] because there were so many spores in that area these kids would go just get bags of mushrooms and go to other planets. The farmer had to feed his cows. Some anti-mushroom. I want to see them still there. I wonder if it is, I bet there's parts of this country where they just grow naturally all over the place. I would imagine. Once those spores get out there,

[2:48:54] I would imagine. Yeah. I would imagine. I was supposed to actually go down to Brazil and ayahuasca. [2:49:01] Oh, really? Yeah. [2:49:02] Yeah. [2:49:03] Isn't it crazy that you have to go to Brazil to do that too? That's nuts. [2:49:07] A friend of mine, we actually went down to stem cells in Panama. It's called Origins. And so we go down there, and he starts explaining like this. For him, it was like seeing the face of God. He said it changed his whole entire being. And he's like, it's in the jungle. So there's no like, it's, yeah, exactly, exactly. And he goes, it's life changing. I just picture Alex Pereira walking to him. [2:49:37] Dude, totally, man. Totally. Like, that's a scary motherfucker, man. I swear to God. He's the scariest. Oh, dude. His walk-in is the scariest, bro. Oh, my God, man. It's the dopest, too. Oh, it's just taunt. It's just like, I'm coming to get you. And nothing you can do about it. Yeah. Yeah, he's built for one thing. And I bumped into him in Chicago, and it's like, he's built for one thing. He's built to fight. Yeah, he's built to fuck you up. Oh, he's built to fight. [2:50:07] weirdly strong guy. Oh, [2:50:09] Yeah, like literally it's like he shouldn't be able to do what he's doing. Right. It's like, you know, I go, there's no wind up in his kicks, his low kicks. Nothing. There's no tells. No tell. [2:50:22] Like you look at it, it's really sneaky. But he's got unbelievable power. But the thing is, he puts it together with technique. It's not like he's just waiting after you, trying to exchange with you and land first. No. No, he's setting you up. And while he's setting you up, he's taking your legs away and you're not seeing the tells.

[2:50:39] Oh, my God. They're not there at all. These hips are – yep, that's it. They don't move. By the time you think it's coming, it's already there. Oh, and that's the whole thing is you go, okay, you're thinking you're going to pick up on it, and it's like, no, you're never going to. Yeah, he's very clever with that, and he does it with both sides too. He's just as good with the left leg with a switch kick when he's fighting a southpaw. [2:51:01] He just starts chewing up those calves really quick, man. I can't believe that even a thing. [2:51:07] is that nerve. Yeah, it's a horrible nerve. Oh, my God. That wasn't a thing when you were five. No, it wasn't a thing. Isn't it crazy? Oh, my God. You have to know it now. Oh, my gosh. Like looking at it going... [2:51:19] Oh my god, he's taking him out. He can't walk. [2:51:23] Look, it's like five kicks in. You're like... [2:51:25] Oh, fuck. He can't push off of that. Isn't it crazy that you went your whole career without seeing that? [2:51:30] Like, who discovered it? Michael Bisping. Yeah. Even Michael Bisping said it. I went through my whole career without getting calf kicked. [2:51:39] That's so crazy. Yeah. [2:51:40] He's a world champion. Never got calf kicked. [2:51:44] Like, that's a good thing. Yeah. That's a really good thing. But it's amazing that it came along so late. [2:51:50] Because it's unbelievable you would think that something that looks that innocent is so debilitating. Well, Benson Henderson was the first guy to start implementing it in the UFC. And then Mighty Mouse did it to Henry Cejudo and made his leg go limp. [2:52:05] Mm-hmm. [2:52:06] Did you ever remember that? [2:52:08] He started doing it. But this was like around the time where it started catching on. There was one fight between Dustin Poirier and Jim Miller. Oh, that was a horrible one. There was a lot of calf kicks in that fight.

[2:52:21] Yeah, I mean, that's the copycat league, right? It's a copycat thing, like watching another Friday going, yeah, I'm going to try it. Now we'll see. Everyone has it. Yeah. Everyone has it. [2:52:30] You have to have it, and you can't take too many. No. No matter who you are. No, it doesn't matter. I mean, it's just one of those where I – So vulnerable. It's one of those where it's like – [2:52:39] There's there's other than checking it or getting out of the way. There's not a fucking shit you can do. Well, Pereira has a very interesting way of checking it. So he checks it like the hacky sack way. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like when you throw a kick at him, he just lifts his leg. Yeah. He just lifts. He has his knee there and he just picks his leg up. Yeah. So the kick just kind of goes with it. [2:53:02] And he goes, it takes all the impact on it. Because he was saying, as far as checking it, like you don't want to check it because it fucking hurts too much. Even if you're just checking it, now that leg is fucked up. Why check it when you can just do that like hacky sack thing? And he was showing us with it, like, oh, that's a different one. He does that one. That's a different hacky sack one where he uses the back of his foot. Yeah. But what I mean is he is picking up his leg like at the knee. His ankle is coming up parallel. Yeah. [2:53:32] I know exactly what you're talking about. [2:53:35] He's just clever. There's a lot of cleverness, and it seems to be very creative, like the style that he has, like how he figures out how to – because he knows he's just got to land one. So he's got this very creative little ways to chop out the legs. Yeah, yeah. I still think Sean O'Malley's got the best feints.

[2:53:55] Oh, he's got phenomenal things. I mean, just... So I remember watching him before he got to the UFC. [2:54:02] And a friend of mine was like, no, no, no, you got to watch this kid. You got to watch this kid. You know, and watching him going, it would be like this just... [2:54:10] Again and again and again and just realizing, oh, fuck, that's what he was setting up. Yeah. It was 14 feints, right, to get to what he wanted to get to. And then it was like a feint here, feint on this side, feint here. And all of a sudden he's got a tendency and now it's like attack time. Did you ever see the Eddie Weinland one? [2:54:28] He feints an uppercut and he comes over the top of the right hand. I've seen it, but I haven't seen it. Oh, you've got to see it. It's so pretty. It's one of his prettiest knockouts. [2:54:38] He like stepped in, like fainted, like he was going to throw an uppercut and turned it into a left hand. Oh, my God. It was so clean. Yeah, he's done some stuff. Watch this. [2:54:51] Watch how it is. It's amazing. [2:54:53] Look at that. [2:54:54] He feints the left uppercut and comes over the top with the right hand. God. Watch that again. And that's one of those words where that is. That's silly. Bro, that's so beautiful. Oh, my God. [2:55:07] That's like one of those things where it's like you can't teach it. [2:55:10] You can't teach that stuff. This is so slick. [2:55:13] That's such a slick move. Cannot teach it. Did you watch the Terrence Crawford-Canelo Halvarez fight? Yeah, I did. Woo! [2:55:20] Talk about slick. [2:55:22] Oh, my goodness. Crawford just outboxed, man. Like, fucking unreal. Who's ever done that? Who's ever jumped up two weight classes like that? That's scary. It's crazy. Scary. Scary. So realizing, like, watching it going, Carnello has such a bully style. Mm-hmm. Right? He's going to get in. He's going to bang with you. Yeah. He's going to power. And watching Carnello just, or Crawford just...

[2:55:44] just box just box beautifully oh like i watch the whole thing i'm like that's art [2:55:52] That is art. He's so clever. And just like the way – and it got to a point where he got so comfortable. He's like pit patting him. And then clap. What? Bop, bop, bop. Bang. It's like wow. You're watching like wow. Towards the end, towards the final rounds, really started getting comfortable and really started putting it on. I'm like this is amazing. [2:56:10] You know, one of those rare like that's history, obviously. Right. Watching somebody do you shouldn't be able to do that. You shouldn't be able to fight at that weight for the first time ever against one of the greatest of all time. Fuck it. And do what you did. No, it is beyond like my favorite an outlier. You're beyond an outlier. You're something you're an anomaly. Yeah. [2:56:35] Something special. Something really special. I believe he's 37. Yeah. One of those where he shouldn't be able to do that by any account. By any account. 37, my body was so wrecked. I'm like, fuck you. I can barely go bowling. [2:56:51] I watched a video of Dolph Lundgren the other day. Oh. [2:56:56] Like, that guy was like, remember in Rocky III, he was the first guy that was scientifically trained. Whenever I think of, like, UFC fighters, like he's. Yeah, absolutely. When you're thinking of talking about guys doing everything scientifically. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dolph Lundgren in Rocky III. Yeah, oh, my God, man. It was Rocky IV, Rocky IV, right? That was a stereotype. That was a stereotype. Like, the Russians, you know, oh, they're manufactured. You know, like, biologically manufactured. I came from a test tube, you know, type.

[2:57:26] He crushed an experiment in that movie. He did. But that was the first time I saw VersaClimber. I was like, whoa, conditioning. Look at that. Oh, my God. He's unstoppable. He's unstoppable. [2:57:36] I was on a VersaClimber two days ago. They're brutal. Oh, fuck. I hate them. Not a lot of fun. No. Not an enjoyable activity. I do an Aerodyne, VersaClimber, a rower, and then a skier. All the things that suck. All the things that suck. Like going, shit, just, you know, but it's one of those where I'm like, you know what? [2:57:56] I don't have to do it for anything other than the challenge of just doing it. [2:58:00] Yeah. I think everybody needs a little bit of a challenge. And just getting over the challenge of doing, like I'm doing 45 minutes on this elliptical machine, period. That's it. Yeah, that's good for you. Oh, it's huge. It's huge. It's giant. Because it's just like when I trained, it comes small wins, right? I just need a win. [2:58:18] It's like some days I just need fucking a win. That's it. I don't care what it is. Right. You know, I just need a win. [2:58:25] Right. Being nice to my wife, you know, being nice to, you know, just whatever it is. I just need something that day. [2:58:32] Right. You know, it's like, fuck, I'm going to go to the gym and get on a fucking thing that I hate and I'm going to fucking do it for 45 minutes. And I'm and that's a win. And I think if you looked at the proportion, like if you looked at this, there was a study done on people that are happy. [2:58:46] versus people that are not in this life, I bet the people that would gen... [2:58:51] generally say they're happy. [2:58:53] Get more of those. Get more of those wins in over themselves.

[2:58:57] Get more of those doing some shit that you did want to do, but you did it. There, I'm done. Yeah. [2:59:02] I feel better. And that's, for me, that's the link to get to where I am today is that I didn't understand how huge those components were. Yeah. Because when you're competing and stuff, it's easy because every day you need to get wins. Right. And you're stacking them, right? I'm stacking them. I need every day. I need a good training day. I need a good training day. And then you get to regular life. It's like. [2:59:26] Okay, what the fuck? I'm not doing anything. Yeah, what's my win? Letting somebody in on traffic? [2:59:33] That's a giant problem for fighters, too, because you're at fucking 9,000 RPMs for years, and then all of a sudden, boom. Yeah. Yeah. [2:59:41] And you're supposed to go to normal life now? No, no. And I didn't. So this is this is again where fucking this idea of like of like I didn't understand how much of myself was tied up in it and how much I needed to go. It's what I did, not who I am. And understanding like this who I am has a lot longer career than this fighter. [3:00:05] Yeah. Right. It's it's it's understanding who I like. [3:00:10] really getting into the fact that [3:00:13] I'm much more than just a fighter. [3:00:17] you know and understanding like okay what is that you know i'm i'm a compassionate person i'm empathetic you know [3:00:25] um

[3:00:27] I try to be kind in understanding the people around me. I try to bring, I call it emotional sobriety. If I'm emotionally honest with the people in my life, everybody else fits in. [3:00:38] If I'm emotionally dishonest, people get fucked up. My environment gets all fucked up. Right. Right. Yeah. You know, so it's like it's understanding these these aspects about my life going, oh, God, man, I need to make these the important parts of where I'm building and what I'm building in my life. And it's been, you know, it's been a process. It's been some days I'm like, fuck this, man. Fuck this. Fuck. [3:01:01] And other days I'm like... [3:01:03] That was just a day. [3:01:05] As long as you can keep that clarity of knowing that these fuck this days are going to pass. Oh, God. Yeah. Well, my Hall of Fame speech, I call it, you know, like when I was first getting sober, it was like I just I would try to get through a minute. [3:01:19] I just need to make it through this minute. That's all. [3:01:22] And I just need to make it through this next minute. [3:01:25] I just need to get through this next. Some of them are fucking hard because I just wanted to fuck this because I'm so uncomfortable. And I get through that minute. I go, I just need to make it through this hour. I need to just make it through this day. And then it'd be this week. [3:01:39] You know, and then all of a sudden it's like a month goes by, but I'd still have to go back. I just need to make it through this fucking minute. Right. You know, like it's just how I'm built. You know, like this just self that just is so restless inside. You know, it's like, fuck.

[3:01:58] you know? [3:01:59] Amazing. Do you think that that was accelerated by fighting, or do you think that was a preexisting thing that drew you to fighting? [3:02:08] Um... [3:02:10] I think it was accelerated by fighting. [3:02:13] You know I do. [3:02:14] Um, you know, a lot of it just, you know, I'm a competitor being a competitor allowed me to fight, but fighting was like hurting another human being to the level that I had to hurt them. That was a whole nother experience. [3:02:28] You know, it's like I could wrestle, I can compete, I can do grappling, but to physically beat, I had to flip a switch and turn into this other person that I'm like, fuck, I'm glad I know he's there. But it's like, that's not... [3:02:41] That's not me. Right. Right. [3:02:43] you know, [3:02:44] It's just this weird dichotomy or this weird... That nobody ever really gets to experience except for someone like you. Yeah. [3:02:51] Yeah. [3:02:52] Or maybe at another level, a higher level, someone at war. Yeah, yeah. [3:02:57] Oh, my God. That's – I mean that's – you know, I understand why there's, you know, a lot of the veterans and what they go through. It's like that's – normally that's not how you're built as a human being. Right. You're not supposed to experience that. No. And then come back and just be normal. Yeah, like – It's like, oh, fuck. That movie Hurt Locker when he's walking around the supermarket until he wants to go back. Oh, my God. Yeah. Because it's just one where it's like it's not how I'm built. You know, I have a – [3:03:24] I have... [3:03:25] a lot more compassion for other human beings. But, you know, I was glad to know that if I got...

[3:03:32] put in a fucking room with another dude. [3:03:34] I was coming out, motherfucker. [3:03:38] That was a good thing to know. It's a good thing to know. It's a good thing to know, right? It's a good thing to know. Do you, when you look back, do you, I mean... [3:03:48] do... [3:03:49] If you were going to give yourself advice... [3:03:52] When would you think would have been a good time for you to stop fighting? [3:03:56] Oof. [3:03:59] After Fujita. After Fujita? Yeah. Yeah. [3:04:03] Because that was, you know what, and... [3:04:06] Like if people understood like that time period, like I got sober, I just fought Ensign and then I went and did Abu Dhabi and I won my weight class, won the all around. [3:04:18] which is a big deal for me. [3:04:20] At the time, it was a huge deal. And then if I would have won that championship... [3:04:25] uh... [3:04:26] if I would have won the Pride Grand Prix, [3:04:28] I have a mic drop. [3:04:30] I could have walked away and it could have been a Khabib moment where it's like, oh, I wonder how good he could have been. You know, it would have been a complete fucking mic drop. Right. Right. [3:04:41] But it's just at that moment, I knew that something had changed in me, that I didn't have that thing in me that I needed to do it. Because you need a thing in you to do that. You do. And that's what we're talking about, like a gear. You need a different gear. You need a different component to get to that level. And if you don't have it, it's like...

[3:05:05] You know, let's say in the NFL, if you're thinking about retirement, you shouldn't be playing the game. So you were... [3:05:10] at a point where you're... [3:05:13] Okay. [3:05:13] dislike of hurting people was interfering with your job. [3:05:17] Yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, I had to just get to a place which is just... [3:05:24] you know, just a place that I just didn't like being. Right. [3:05:27] No, it makes sense talking to you, you know, because it's funny you talk to certain people like yourself and George, like George St. Pierre, I was just hanging out with him the other night and he, my friends are always like, he's so normal. This is so weird. It's so hard to believe that that guy's one of the greatest fighters of all time because he's so normal. [3:05:48] And that's also the beauty in it. [3:05:51] It's that's why people are fascinated by fighting because they want to know what kind of normal person to yeah, what can a normal person turn himself into? What is possible? Yeah, and that's that's the I answered that question for myself, right? And it's one where it's like, okay, you know, and to get for me to get there was was so interesting. [3:06:13] Not difficult, but like I would watch film of me walking out and I couldn't even recognize myself. [3:06:20] like my facial expression, how I walked, how I carried myself, I'd look at it and go, wow, that doesn't even look like me. [3:06:29] Like transforming like into a completely different person. And it's understanding like compartmentalizing everything. Like no emotions, no nothing singularly focused to one thing. And that thing was I'm going to impose my will on you until I fucking take yours. That's it.

[3:06:48] And for me, it just was a darker place for me to go. [3:06:51] Right, of course. [3:06:53] And probably unsustainable if you want to be a happy person. No, you can't. But in order to be the Mark Kerr that everybody loved, you kind of had to go there. That's the only way to do it. Yeah. That's the wildest thing that most people will never understand. Only a person like yourself who's actually experienced it will really truly understand what those words mean. [3:07:14] I mean, it's just one where... It's a nutty requirement of someone. Oh, fuck yeah. A nutty request. It is. Hey, you want to go fight in front of the whole world? Yeah. [3:07:23] Yeah, because it's fucking, you talk about vulnerable. [3:07:27] like vulnerable, like fucking bare in your soul. That's, [3:07:33] Because you get to a place of exhaustion. You know it's weakness. [3:07:37] You're showing everybody you weren't strong enough to train to the capacity you needed to train to to fight. [3:07:44] And look at this dude, he's beating the fuck out of you. [3:07:47] And you got fucking hot pants on. Boo! Right? To add a little fucking insult, right? You got fucking hot pants on and you're beating the fuck. So, I mean, there's that whole thing. It's very fucking vulnerable to fight because there's – it's just – [3:08:02] It's just very, like the loneliest places, two loneliest places in the world is walking into the ring and after the fight's over. [3:08:09] Mmm. [3:08:11] The two loneliest places I've ever been in my entire life are those two places. [3:08:15] Because there's no help when you're walking into the ring. It's just fucking you. And you know that. And after the fight...

[3:08:22] It's just you. [3:08:24] You have to live with whatever experience you just had, win, lose, or draw. [3:08:28] You know, times I won, I felt empty because it felt like I needed to go do something again. [3:08:34] It felt like I needed to go achieve something again. Like everything was so focused on this thing. Once this thing's over, I need another thing. I need to go chase that thing. Oh, wow. It's this never ending. Like for me, it was this never ending because I was trying to be enough. [3:08:50] I was just trying to be enough, and I could never get there. Isn't it crazy that that kind of addictive behavior and thinking is almost the only way to make true excellence? I know. [3:09:02] It's just so fucked up, right? It's so fucked up. I'm like, come on. It's so crazy. Because I know it doesn't only apply to fighters. I know it's actors. Oh, musicians. And I know it's artists. Do you think Steve Jobs had fucking... [3:09:18] I mean, that's again singularly focused. Singularly focused. Right? I mean, it's just this, it's the, you know, madness and brilliance, you know, are almost of the same vein. Right? And, you know, this driven component of me, the bane of that is that once that, you know, [3:09:38] thing was over, I had to go fucking chase something else. And I can never fucking sit in that moment and be okay with whatever. And, you know, again, it's one of those things where it's like, [3:09:50] Thankfully, I am designed the way I am, you know, because I'm finally in a place where I'm like, I'm okay with me.

[3:09:57] I'm completely okay with me. [3:09:59] And it's taken me a long time to get here. Well, that's awesome, dude. I'm glad that you got there. And I'm glad to... [3:10:06] Just be able to sit down with you and talk to you and tell you how much I appreciate, first of all, your career. But you've been able to do that Smashing Machine documentary, I think, wasn't just eye-opening for a lot of people to realize, like, wow, a lot of these guys are struggling in a way that we couldn't even possibly comprehend. It's all they're doing in private. This guy just led us into his life. Holy shit. How many more stories are there out there like this? Yeah. [3:10:29] opens people up to the conversation. [3:10:32] But also, like, having the courage to let people, like, look at your life like that. I think it's pretty powerful, man. No, I appreciate that. And the movie's great. And The Rock, you fucking nailed it. Oh, my God. I mean, The Rock, Emily, you know, Benny. She nailed it. Oh, my God. She nailed it crazy with it. She got an A+. Oh, my God. Yeah, exactly. Wow, chef's kiss for that craziness. Well, thank you, sir. Thanks for being in here, man. No, I appreciate it, man. It was a lot of fun. I appreciate it. The Smashing Machine, it is out October 3rd, right? Is that what it's called? Yeah, October 3rd, yeah. Yeah. It's very good. I appreciate it, Joe. [3:11:02] Boss Rootin' kills it in it, too. Yeah. It was great. All right. Thank you. Bye, everybody. All right. Cheers.

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