Mommy and Clyde: The Crimes of Sante and Kenny Kimes

[00:00] Leviticus is this summer's horror discovery of immense power that critics are hailing as haunting and heartbreaking. If you see anything that looks like me, don't go near him. When a curse is inflicted on two teenage boys, they must escape a violent entity that takes the form of the person they desire most, each other. I know it's not you. Critics are raving that it is a bone-chilling horror that's biblically scary. It's gonna kill him! Leviticus, rated R, named Beatrice, June 19th. [00:30] Bye. [00:31] Cape Fear is a new series now streaming on Apple TV. This 10-episode mystery thriller is executive produced by Martin Scorsese and stars Academy Award winner Javier Bardem, Academy Award nominee Amy Adams, and Emmy nominee Patrick Wilson. [00:45] When convicted murderer Max Cady is released from prison, he begins infiltrating the family of the married attorneys who helped put him behind bars. [00:54] Every good detective needs a partner to support them on important cases. Think of a State Farm agent like your sidekick, there to help you along the way in your search for coverage. State Farm can help you choose the coverage you need, whether it's for your home, car, boat, or even RV. With so many options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you, so you can get back to solving all of life's bigger cases. Go to statefarm.com or use the award-winning app to connect with a local agent and get a quote, [01:24] neighbor, State Farm is there. [01:26] Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid.

[01:44] This is Morbid. We just got finished watching the, is it 2009 documentary? I think it is 2009. Catfish, the movie. Catfish, the movie. Not the TV show. [01:55] the movie it all stemmed from. [01:57] Oh, 2010. 2010. Wow, for some reason I thought it was earlier than that. [02:01] That movie... [02:02] Wow. [02:04] Henry aged really well. Henry did age very well. That's actually nuts. [02:10] But... [02:11] If you haven't watched that movie yet... [02:13] where are you? Honestly, everybody aged for you. You gotta, you gotta watch that movie. That movie is, [02:19] Will give you so many different emotions. It feels like a horror movie. [02:24] No, I stand by the fact that it turns into a horror movie. I remember the first time I watched it, I was like, oh, is this like a found footage thing? Yeah, we thought it was a horror movie when we first watched it. Yeah, I fully get that. It's a weird comfort movie for me, even though it's not comforting in any way, because... [02:42] The time period it came out in, we watched it when we were like living with friends and we all watched it together. Yeah. And it has like a nice cozy feel to it. [02:51] And I remember very vividly watching it for the first time. Yeah. So it is like one of those movies I can put on and it puts me in like a weird cozy place. I don't know. It's weird. All right. I get it being from a time period that like feels comfy. I understand that. Yeah. Because there are certain movies that are just like... [03:08] I love, and this movie's awful. There's one scene that I can't watch. [03:12] No, it's true. Hold on. I'm literally having problems. It's the Yah-Yah Sisterhood, I think.

[03:19] Divine Secrets of the Yaya Sisterhood. Oh, I was a traveling pants. Oh my god, that's exactly what I was going to say. I kept going to say Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. I don't know why. That makes sense. I was like, that's not it. Because Sisterhood, you know? Sisterhood, yeah. No, the Divine Secrets of the Yaya Sisterhood. I love that movie, but it's like the darkest movie of all time. I've never seen that movie. You would hate it. Yeah. There's one scene that like literally I could never watch again. Really? Yeah, I saw it like way too young. But I love that movie, but it's like... [03:46] I think it just reminds me of a childhood or something. That's the thing. It's not necessarily... [03:51] I will say with Catfish, though, every time I feel like I know what is going to happen. Yeah. Because I've seen it a million times. But you're still shocked. I'm still shocked by it. And I'm still, like, just... [04:02] You could knock me over with a goddamn feather. I get it. Every time. I get it. And we were watching it and Deb had not seen it. Watching somebody had not seen it actually. So we had them watch it for the first time and they were shocked and watching their reactions. That's the thing. Made us sit there and go, wait a second. [04:18] Maybe we should talk about the original Catfish movie on a bonus episode, because you know it'll be fun and terrifying and wild. And if you've never seen it before... [04:28] go watch it. Don't spoil it for yourself. Go watch it. Yeah, don't Google anything. But maybe we'll do, we have a few bonus episodes planned out ahead of time. Like, we're going to be covering Eclipse, obviously. We've got a fun book club coming up. And we have America's Next Top Model, sweetie. So we have those lined up, but we could do it after those. And just let us know if that sounds like a good idea. I feel like it would be a fun one to, like, deep dive into. It feels criny.

[04:58] - Yeah. [05:00] this happening. Like the phenomenon of catfishing on the internet. Because doesn't it feel crimey? Oh, it... Like, identity theft is a crime. Yeah. I mean, it does feel very crimey. You know what I mean? [05:12] And I don't want to ruin anything. So, like, I feel... [05:15] I feel like it would be a fun episode. Yeah, there's so much to talk about. So let us know if that sounds like a good bonus episode for a few out from now. Yeah, yeah. Hit us up. Yeah. I have a wild case today. And Dave named this one. And I said, what am I getting into? Mommy and Clyde. [05:37] It's the crimes of Santa and Kenny Kimes. Okay. And I hadn't heard of this one when I dived into it. No, I haven't heard of it. [05:45] Oh, I always love that. And it starts like really beautifully, but then it gets so sad so fast. Let's go, girls. And then it gets fucking dark and crazy and murderous. Oh, man. [05:55] So, [05:55] It also starts on July 4th. Oh, [05:57] On July 4th, 1998, 82-year-old Irene Silverman threw a small party for her friends at her East 65th Street townhouse. Let's go. She was a former ballet dancer who had studied under the famous Russian instructor Michael Fokin. And even once she was retired and got older, she never lost a single bit of her elegance. This woman is gorgeous if you look her up. [06:21] Her friend John Gruen said, She was a very exquisite woman, very beautiful. I remember offering her some coffee or tea when she came to our house. She refused, saying she was in constant pain with a bad back. She told us the only way that she could allay the pain was with champagne. And with that, she took a small bottle out of her purse and we got her a glass. Honestly, she sounds iconic. I love her. So it seemed like everybody who had even just a casual relationship with Irene had only good things to say about her.

[06:51] said she was so hip so funny so awake she was with it another close friend zang toy echoed those same statements he said she's vivacious she's a lot of fun [07:01] uh zhang toy and irene had actually been friends for many many years so of course he had been to her manhattan townhouse for a ton of the lavish parties that she'd thrown throughout the years and he was always amazed by the lengths that she went to just to make sure everybody was entertained like anybody who was at her party there was going to be something special for each person he said she knew how to throw a great party during her heyday and she had a heart of gold [07:31] so you would love her. She was born in 1916. [07:35] Her father was a fisherman. Her mother was a seamstress. And despite the odds, she did manage to escape that poverty through her incredible talent and commitment to dance. She was a beautiful dancer. Eventually, she landed a spot studying with some of the most famous ballet instructors in the world. And at her height, she was dancing on some of the most prestigious stages, which included a high profile position with the Radio City Music Hall's classical ballet company. Oh, shit. Like, that's a huge deal. That's huge. [08:05] I believe it was called Cours du Ballet. She used to say, lots of people think I'm very rich, and I am, but I've always worked. And look at where I am. And look at where I began. I'm a tough broad, a child of the Depression. I had to be self-supporting from the age of 16. Wow. I just love, lots of people think I'm rich, and I am. She's like, fuck you, I worked for it. Yeah, good for her. She's got great energy. So in 1941, Irene married millionaire real estate broker,

[08:35] Yeah. [08:37] Obviously, they had been married for so, so long. So Sam's death was incredibly hard for Irene. But she was determined to hold on to her love of life. She didn't want to just lose herself in his death. And in the years that followed, she was just making sure she was constantly surrounded by friends and family. Now she was a widow, so she had a lot of time on her hands. And she also had more money than she knew what to do with. So 59-year-old Irene enrolled in courses at Columbia University. Wow. Started taking classes. Look at her. [09:07] classmates and her instructors, and she would regularly treat them to like small gifts or gestures of her friendship. Her friend George Frango said, these gatherings were a colorful, improvised theater over which Irene presided, reveling in the intrigue and drama of it all. [09:23] She sounds like a hot fucking ticket. She really does. She really does. It wasn't just that she wanted to fill her time after her husband's death either. It seems like no matter where she was, she just wanted to be surrounded by people. Like she had a love for life. In the wake of Sam's passing, she decided to rent out one or two of the rooms. She had very large bedrooms in her Manhattan mansion. And over the years, she shared her home with tenants like actor Daniel Day-Lewis. Oh, okay. [09:53] Chaka Khan. [09:55] No big deal. Isn't that nuts? No big deal. And it wasn't that she needed the money. She just didn't like being alone. And she, again, loved being around people. And why not have really awesome people around all the time? Well, and that's the thing. When it came to choosing tenants, she had two requirements.

[10:09] They had to be interesting and they had to be easy to get along with. Honestly, that's so valid. Yeah, that was pretty much it. So those who happily shared their lives with her usually found themselves rewarded, too. And like... [10:20] Just unexpected ways. Yeah. According to journalist Alex Kirsta, they might find Silverman's antique silver service and a bottle of champagne left in their dining room when she knew they were holding a party. One who had embarked on a romance with a new girlfriend came home one day to find his old bed replaced with a much larger one. [10:39] wow she said get to it she said you know what she said you're welcome i'll help exactly i'm like i want to be friends with irene yeah [10:48] So at the end of the night, just where we started on July 4th, Irene said goodbye and goodnight to her guests and she went to bed. The next morning, her maid, Aricella, came to clean up after the party. And it was a holiday, obviously, so the rest of the staff was off. And Aricella herself was planning to leave around noon. She was working a shorter shift. The last time she saw Irene, she was still dressed in her nightgown and her slippers. And Irene asked if Aricella would take the dog for a walk on the roof garden before she left. [11:18] was planning to leave for a few hours and then she was going to come back okay so she was like oh before you go just walk the dog [11:23] So when Aricella returned after being away around 4 p.m., she got back. The house was empty and there was no sign of Irene anywhere, which was very strange. Yeah. And as far as Aricella knew, Irene didn't have any plans to go out that day. The rest of the staff was gone. And Irene, like I just told you, she loves being surrounded by people. She very rarely went anywhere alone. So it seemed highly unlikely that she would have left without saying anything to anybody. Yeah. Yeah.

[11:49] So obviously concerned that something was wrong, Arichella called Irene's butler Menji Mengistu. [11:56] knowing that if anybody knew where Irene had gone, it would be Menji. But Menji hadn't heard from Irene since the day before when he left for the long weekend. So similarly, Irene's close friend and business manager, Jeff Feig, hadn't heard from her in a day or two. And he said she hadn't mentioned having any plans to go anywhere over the holiday weekend. So he agreed it was weird. Yeah. So Arichella waited in the house for an hour or two. She was like, you know, she could have gone somewhere. It would be out of character, but let's not panic. But after an hour [12:26] there was the panic was starting to set in. Yeah. There was still no sign of Irene. So Aricella called the police. [12:31] Now, strangely, the day after 4th of July is a quieter day for the Manhattan police. When the call came in about a missing elderly socialite, it didn't seem like an emergency situation, which is kind of weird to me. But the case was assigned to newly promoted junior detective Tom Hovegem. Later, he said, I'd just gotten promoted in January. So the other two guys were pretty senior to me. And they said, well, kid, this is yours because nobody really wants a missing persons case. [13:01] am like that's fake all right cool it's tedious to find someone missing so you do nice and also like you're junior so you do it i'm like but you guys are senior so you might be a little better at it it's like a whole person missing yeah somebody's loved one you could treat it with a little more than that respect dignity any of the above but luckily detective homogene was a good detective he drove to irene's six-story townhouse on the upper east side and he started

[13:31] a six-story townhouse. [13:33] All I can think of is Sonia Morgan's house. That's literally all I could think of. From Real Housewives of New York. But to have to collect evidence from a home like that, I can't imagine. Oh my god. And there's all this expensive... I was going to say, and there's like years of... [13:47] of living in there that you have to like search through. You also have to be careful. It's a lot. So with Arichella as a guide, Hovijim searched the entire house and the entire property, but there was truly no sign of Irene anywhere. After searching the house, he spoke with the attendees of the party the previous evening, but didn't really find anything useful or suspicious there. [14:08] And the same was true of Irene's staff. Everybody was accounted for, and nobody had any information that seemed useful in finding Irene, and none of them seemed suspicious in any way. So other than the missing homeowner, there was really just one thing that seemed out of the ordinary. Irene's current tenant, a man named Manny Guerin, also appeared to be missing. So about three weeks earlier, on June 14th, Manny Guerin showed up at Irene's door. [14:38] rent one of her large vacant apartments upstairs. Okay. He, I think earlier I said they were rooms. They were actually apartments. Oh. Because picture like a townhouse. Yeah. That makes sense. So, yeah, [14:49] Manny was charming. He was well-spoken. Two things that Irene prized. Seems like he might be easy to get along with. A good tenant. But the only weird thing was he didn't have any references or identification. Right.

[15:01] What he did have, though, was $6,000 cash for the first month's rent and a promise that he would give her the references the following day. [15:10] so all it's a red flag for sure but especially because we know yeah i was gonna say it's from like you know the rearview mirror exactly a red flag but and i think i mean she was 84 she probably is like i knew i can read people at this point and like i'm getting good vibes yeah he's a businessman he's got the money obviously the vibes run off to her so right [15:33] So all things considered, she said she couldn't see the harm in letting him get settled and giving him a couple days to put together a list of references. So she let him move in that very day. [15:41] But the problems began almost immediately. Once he moved into the large first fuller apartment, he became far less charming than he had been on that first day. When Irene or the staff members interacted with him at all, he seemed to avoid eye contact. [15:56] which was obviously very strange. Yeah. And he also would only give one word and often very blunt responses. Hmm. [16:03] He refused to allow the cleaning staff into his apartment, which is like, why? You don't own it. Yeah. You're just, you're renting it. And anytime Irene would press him for those references, he'd come up with one excuse or another about why he didn't have them. Yep. Equally troubling was the number of suspicious looking people who seemed to show up at his apartment at all hours. Uh-oh. Including an older woman who he, quote, always seemed to shield from the security camera when letting her in. This would fuck me up. Yeah.

[16:33] only person who found him suspicious. Her staff also found him strange and disconcerting. More than once, one of them noticed him staring at Irene's open office door or like lurking around the door. Menji Mengistu, her butler, expressed his concern to many of Irene's close friends, including James Shenton. Shenton said Menji became suspicious when Guerin started getting pally and trying to turn him against Irene. Guerin asked why they were all silly enough to go on [17:03] a wealthy exploiter who didn't care about their future and that they'd never end up with money or security. And he suggested they come work for him instead. [17:11] What the fuck? Would you have to imagine... [17:14] get the fuck out of here also this woman has well-established relationships with these people they know who she is you think you're gonna turn them on her right now and she treats her staff like family that's the thing like she puts her money where her mouth is exactly so eventually several of the staff members including men just do told irene about their concerns they were trying to have respect for her of course this guy's talking shit behind your back right exactly like in the beginning i think they were like you know what you're doing and like we're not gonna [17:44] went on, they were like, [17:44] Irene are you sure about this? We're getting weird vibes. And they had actually heard I think they felt more confident sharing these concerns after they heard her arguing with him for a few days after he moved in. Oh damn. [17:58] You were going to say for a few days. For a few days. I almost did. It was like the stamina that takes. Yeah, they were arguing for days. So Irene's friend Bob Yakovic remembered, Valerie and Menji both warned her not to trust him. Down in the kitchen, Menji had drawn an Ethiopian cruciform symbol on top of the fridge as if to ward off evil, saying these people mean you no good, they are bad, and you should be afraid of them. Whoa. Irene's response was that she was an old lady who had survived many dangers, and she still wasn't afraid of anybody.

[18:27] She is such a bad bitch. She really is. [18:30] but still after just one week wow this all happened in one week this all happened in one week holy shit irene had had enough of manny and she told him she wanted him out he never got her the references yeah he's trying to turn her staff against her he's bringing all these weird people and she's like get out of here [18:47] The following day, she instructed her business manager to serve him with eviction papers before the month's lease was even up. Good for her. [18:54] So the last time that James shunt in, [18:56] a friend of Irene saw her was June 27th, just one week before the 4th of July party. Irene might have talked a tough game, but she and, you know, she was definitely a very self-sufficient woman. But that day, her friend couldn't help but notice that she seemed particularly spooked by what was going on. Rather than sit inside to have coffee and talk like they always did, Irene insisted they go up to the rooftop garden because she was, quote, nervous of being overheard. She felt like she was being listened to. [19:23] Imagine having a rooftop garden to go to. I fucking wish. To talk shit. [19:28] I would never stop talking shit on my rooftop garden. That would be the only reason for my rooftop garden. I would name it. Talk shit. I would name it something about. Talking shit. Talking shit. Yeah. Yeah. Like I would. Oh my God. I would decorate it for optimal shit talking. Yes. [19:42] Absolutely. Comfy chairs. Oh, hell yeah. Mini fridge. Yep. Snacks. Tea cups. Tea cups. Spilling tea. [19:51] metaphorically and literally. Those chairs are going to have big comfy pillows so you can sit cross-legged while you talk shit. Someday let's get a roof garden where we can talk shit.

[20:00] shake shaking we're shaking across the room we're doing that so they went up to the roof garden to talk shit and when shet and asked irene what was wrong she said i can't tell you what's wrong i don't want to put you in danger you'll know more next week [20:15] That would fuck me up. I would be like, I'm going to take you away from here. Yeah, I'd be like, we got to go somewhere. Yeah. I can't. But obviously, at the same time, Irene's telling you, like, I can handle it. I'm good. So there's nothing he could have done to get involved. No, definitely not. I just wouldn't be able to let that go. I would think about it. [20:32] Day and night. Yeah. [20:33] day and night. Absolutely. So the disappearance... That happened to us earlier. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. No, no, you're good. It did happen to us earlier. Somebody gave us a very vague like, oh, don't worry about it. This person said this. And we hung up the phone and we said, no. And we immediately texted and we're like, tell me everything that person said. I don't care what it was. I need to know. I need to know. And we convinced them to tell us what they said. Yeah, because I'll obsess over it forever. And we won. Yeah. So the disappearance of Manny Guarant at the [21:03] At the same time, Irene had insisted that she wanted him out and her business manager had given him eviction papers. So to Detective Hovijim, he thought it was possible that maybe Manny had just simply left as he was instructed. Yeah, it's like it's it's suspicious that they are gone at the same time. But like if you look at it. [21:20] piecemeal, you're like, well, his disappearance isn't crazy because of what you just said. Right. It's just when you put it together that it gets like a little. Well, and then as he was leaving the house, the detective, he noticed a spot of blood on the ground by the front entrance. And the case was immediately elevated to something far more concerning than just a missing person. This is echoing the Nancy Guthrie case right now. Okay. Thank you. In a way I can't handle. Thank you so much. Yeah. It's all I could think of

[21:50] That's so weird. Isn't it? [21:52] And that's not on purpose either. No, it's not on purpose at all. Which also, just a quick little thing. [21:57] they still don't have like updates. They detained someone last night, but then let them go. Yeah. [22:03] Like, what the fuck is going on in that case? I know, it's very strange. I'll keep watching. The doorbell footage is haunting. Doorbell footage is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. I hate it so much. It ruins everything about me. Yeah. To the core of my being. I was watching it last night before I went to bed, and I was having weird dreams afterwards. I know. It's such a bad idea. Truly the worst idea. But back to this. Things only got more alarming when one of the staff members opened Manny's room for the detective. [22:33] items, but what stood out most were the garbage bags, the roll of duct tape, and the shower curtain rings on the shower rod with lack of a shower curtain. [22:44] Oh. [22:45] Thank you. [22:45] Yeah. [22:46] That points to something. Sure does. So the next day, Hovajim and his partner Joe Resnick held a press conference to ask for the public's help in locating Irene Silverman and Manny Guerin. They didn't have a photo of Manny, but they did have a professional quality sketch of him that Irene had actually had done a few days before she disappeared. Wow. Which is just next level. [23:06] Wow. So they use that as a reference for the public. Now, Detective Ed Murray of the NYPD's Fugitive Task Force happened to be watching that press conference that day when he saw the sketch. He immediately recognized the man, not as Manny Guerin.

[23:22] but as Kenny Kimes. Oh, no. A car thief and con artist that he had taken into custody just a day earlier, a few hours after Irene Silverman had disappeared. Oh, no. [23:45] Improving your sleep can feel overwhelming. It's like, do I need a new mattress? Do I need to check this tracker that I'm on? Should I be taking this supplement? Oh my god, I think I need blackout curtains. Whoa, it's overwhelming. Upgrade your sleep by upgrading your bedding though with bowl and branch. It's simple. Signature sateen sheets, breathable pillows, cozy waffle bed blankets, I freaking love a waffle bed blanket, and beautifully crafted comforters work together [24:14] No new routines, just a bed with bowl and branch bedding that feels softer, more breathable, and way more inviting. Start with the signature sheet set. Then add the comforter or the waffle blanket to finish the bed. I personally love how the waffle blanket looks, and it's so cozy, cozy, cozy. I... [24:32] I really have a hard time with sheets until I found Bowlin Branch. I don't know if you guys have had this problem before. It's like three o'clock in the morning. You roll over and your fitted sheet comes with you and it drives you insane. Not with Bowlin Branch, honey. Ever since I got Bowlin Branch, my sheets stay where they're supposed to. My waffle blanket is covered, cozifying me, and my temperature is regulated. I love it. Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch. Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bowlinbranch.com slash morbid with code morbid.

[25:02] That's BolandBranch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash morbid. Code morbid to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply. [25:11] This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app where you can bank, borrow, and invest all in one place. Let's talk about bank accounts for a second. The average bank savings rate is 0.39% in interest. You're earning pennies on your savings, and it doesn't have to be that way. But with SoFi's high-yield checkings and savings, the money barely making moves sitting in your savings account [25:41] No account or overdraft fees. We love transparency. You can get your paycheck up to two days early, plus get up to a $300 welcome bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit. [25:53] Sign up for SoFi Checking and Savings at SoFi.com slash morbid. SoFi Checking and Savings is offered through SoFi Bank and a member FDIC. Terms apply. [26:05] Chilling crime cases are mysterious, but finding coverage shouldn't be. With the State Farm Personal Price Plan, you have options and can personalize your plan to help create an affordable price, so you can get back to cracking all of life's bigger cases. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Head to statefarm.com to get a quote. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state.

[26:34] by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. [26:44] So a few weeks before Kenny Kimes showed up at Irene's door posing as Manny Guerin, he and his mother, Santa, had fled Utah after writing a bad check to rent a Lincoln Town car. The fraud was reported to the police, and when they were discovered to be in the New York area, the Fugitive Task Force set up a sting operation to capture them. Okay. So from the moment that Santa and Kenny Kimes were arrested, Murray found the pair to be very odd. [27:11] Damn. [27:21] And when they pulled both their criminal records, what came back was a startling trail of crimes and suspicions of things much more serious than check fraud. [27:32] So Santa Kimes, let's get into who she was. Santa Kimes was born Sandra Louise Singers, I believe it is, in Oklahoma City on July 24th, 1934. She was one of three children born to marry and pray and singers. [27:51] So they went on to move to L.A. to look for work. [27:54] According to her oldest son, Kent Walker, Santa's oldest son, not long after arriving in L.A., Prame abandoned his family and left the children to wander the streets of L.A. day and night while their mother did whatever she could to support their family, which sometimes included sex work. Yeah. Now, it would be several decades before Kent learned that most of what he thought he knew about his mother's past was largely untrue.

[28:19] She had lied to him for most of his life. The father had not abandoned the family. He actually died of a heart attack when Santa was about five years old. That's different. [28:28] Very different. And according to her sister, Reba, Reba, love that. They had been a solid middle class family and nobody ever relied on sex work to support the family. [28:39] What the fuck? Yeah. That's the weirdest shit I've ever heard. What? Yeah. Considering her extensive history as a con artist and a consummate liar, it's really hard to determine what part of her life is true and what part is not true and what's a lie and what's not. I know people who like do that. Same. Same. [29:00] All the time. Like, they just make up... [29:02] like entire backstories and it's like why are you doing that like like write a book i think it becomes you can write a whole backstory for a character in a book you can it won't affect anyone i think it becomes like compulsive at a certain point and then i do logical pathological and i do believe that there are people who believe they start to believe the falsehoods that they make up i don't know if she's one of them but i don't know what the difference between like pathological [29:32] My ex-boyfriend told me once because he said he was one. I think a compulsive liar... [29:39] Wait, lies. He told me one of them. A pathological liar lies because they can't help it. A compulsive liar lies to get out of trouble. [29:47] One of them is like you lie when you don't have to. And I'm not kidding you. My ex-boyfriend was like he was very matter of fact when he would get caught doing. Because you called him a pathological liar. Because I said you're you're a fucking pathological liar. And he said, I'm not actually because pathological liars lie when they don't have to. And he always lied when he had to. He felt. Well, actually, he was a pathological liar. He just wasn't a convulsive liar. Yeah, I think he was lying when he said he wasn't a pathological liar. That's a mind fuck.

[30:17] lie manipulatively to gain control, which is what he did. Attention or an advantage. Often with little remorse to serve a selfish agenda. So he's a pathological liar. Conversely, compulsive liars lie habitually as an automatic, uncontrollable urge to cope with anxiety or stress, often about small, mundane matters without a clear motive. Maybe I had it wrong then. Maybe it was flipped around that compulsive liars lie technically when they don't have to, but pathological liars... [30:46] Pathological lying is more calculated. Compulsive lying is more impulse driven. That makes sense. Yeah. [30:51] It sounds like she could have been a pathological liar, I would say. Yeah, she kind of sounds like she was pathological. Yeah, but then I don't know the difference. I don't think there is a difference, but I wonder what kind of liars start to believe their own lies, if there's a word for that. Yeah, because... [31:05] Because that just becomes like a mental health disorder. But I wonder if that's just in general, like if you lie enough. Yeah. Which I do believe that that's a thing, because like if you lie enough, you begin to believe. Yeah. [31:16] what you're lying about because your brain will just be like well this is real it's like how you tell yourself if you're like you're like oh i'm so ugly your brain starts to believe it's true so it's like if you tell yourself anything yeah long enough yeah your brain will start to go into like survival mode of like well this is life now and like rewrite now so i should live it yeah so that's lies lies uh but it's hard to determine what part of santa's life is true and what's lies most of

[31:46] by the way it's a little confusing because there's kent and then there's kenny i was gonna say kenny and then she also marries a man named ken which is very confusing wow yeah it's a lot i i think she also marries a man named ken no she doesn't holy shit there's kent ken and kenny that's like ron swanson when it's like my wife my first ex-wife tammy my second wife tammy and his mom yes my mother's name is tamara yeah we call her tammy i don't understand it's a lot [32:13] So even her son Kent acknowledges that his mother's backstory should be taken with a grain of salt. For sure. According to Santa's. Yeah, exactly. What'd you say? Because lies. Yeah, because lies. Pathological. So according to Santa's version of the story, when she was still very young, she ingratiated herself to a local theater owner who took pity on her and started buying her lunches whenever she came around. [32:43] Children. [32:43] but had been unable to have any of their own through natural means. So Dottie arranged for the couple to adopt Santa, and within a few years of living in California, she had a new home and a new name, Sandy Chambers. [32:57] what i don't know if that's true what it might be it might not be all right we don't really know cool but according to those who did know santa during her early years she was a liar and a thief all while she was still in high school whoa and her inclination to manipulate and con others only got worse the older she got oh no so by then she had renamed herself santa santa she believed the name sounded more french and therefore more sophisticated i mean is she correct yeah

[33:25] Actually, we were setting some, this just reminded me, we're tangenting today. Yeah, it's one of those days. We were setting up an account the other day, Drew was, and the guy was like, oh, should I add, I'm so sorry if I say this wrong. [33:36] ashley and true was like oh it's just ashley ashley and he goes it's spelled so fancy it is i was like yeah i mean he's right it is that's i was like you can just say ash so i love that a lot so my name is french and more sophisticated ashley imagine if i just demanded everybody call me that because i thought it sounded more sophisticated i think you should [33:59] Well, Santa did. So in 1956, Santa reconnected with an old boyfriend, Edward Walker. They got married not long after. And one year later, her first son, Kent, with a hard T, Kent, was born. But his arrival did not do a lot to strengthen the couple's already failing marriage. [34:16] At the time, Edward was a contractor who built houses in and around Sacramento. And it was a stable job with a pretty decent income. But it was far from the riches that Santa believed she deserved. She wanted more. So in 1960, she set fire to one of her husband's properties. Holy shit. That escalated fast. I said, so you know what she did about it? She collected an insurance payout. I deserve more than commits arson. Yeah. She committed lots of arson. Damn. So in the years that followed, several more of Edward's construction projects would... [34:46] quote, burned down mysteriously. I just feel bad for Edward. I do too. That's his hard work. Yeah, he's doing like, and all the people that had to build all of that. Yeah, and put in hours and hours and days of work. She's just burning them down together. Yeah, she sucks.

[34:59] So in 1961, she was arrested and convicted, not for arson, but for shoplifting in Sacramento. Oh, that's new. Yes. [35:06] And after that, it kind of seems like her marriage disintegrated. She and Edward were living apart by then. They got back together every now and again and talked of reconciling permanently. Yeah. [35:16] But by 1969, they finally gave up and officially divorced. [35:20] Now single, Santa left Sacramento. Ready to mingle. Ready to mingle. And she wanted to mingle in the decidedly more glamorous Palm Springs. Oh, my. And she took our son Kent with her. [35:31] It was there that she met Ken. Oh, okay. So not Ken. She met Ken Kimes. That's a lot. Yeah. Ken was a wealthy motel developer who was nearly 20 years her senior. Oh. He didn't know it at the time, but their meeting had not, in fact, been by chance at all. Oh. Sanda had read about him in his recent divorce in a magazine article, which also referenced his net worth. Oh. [36:01] their meeting and they were dating in no time. That's confidence though. It's called manifesting. I will give her that. Look it up. She's like, I love that she was just like, I can snag him. And she did. Good for you. Yeah. On that front. On that. Yeah. Period. Just that. A few years later in 1975, their son Kenny was born. Jesus. Ken, Kenny's Kent. So first came Kent, then came Ken, then came Kenny. Okay. So Kenny is Ken Jr. Yeah. That's the Kenny... [36:28] That was Manny. Exactly. You're following. We're following. We're following. Get your red string out, everybody. Look at that. So Kenny was born in 1975, and six years after that, Santa and Ken officially got married in Nevada. Okay. And I said it right. You did say it right. I know, and I don't even say it like that. I did that for you guys. Oh, I say it wrong. I was just about to, I was like, maybe I say it right, and then I said, no, I don't. I say Nevada. We say it wrong. Sorry. But I said it right for the listener.

[36:54] That's really nice of you. You're welcome. So by all accounts, there never seemed to be a moment in Santa's life where she wasn't scheming, conning, ripping somebody off. Aren't you tired? No. I think people like that thrive. They have to. Because it's exhilarating to them, I think. Yeah, I think they're those kind of people that live for drama. Yeah, they live on the edge. It's their lifeblood. It drains me of everything I have. I was just going to say it drains the shit out of me. [37:24] crime if like i just said only for the thrill she's loved to crime she loves criming loves criming her last name is literally kimes but it should be crimes he's not crimes so in the winter of 1980 just a few months before she got married to ken santa was at the town and country uh lounge in the mayflower hotel in washington dc just like a little lounge area where she was drinking drinking and eating maybe well probably not when it looks like she was getting ready to leave though [37:54] Rina Bici. Rina Bici. Rina Bici. Sounds like a nice lady. And you know what? She is in a lounge. Yeah, absolutely. Rina in a lounge. Rina Bici. Yes, absolutely. Well, Rina Bici watched with astonishment as Santa threw her own mink coat over the coat of another woman who wasn't paying attention. And then Santa casually stood up, put both coats on and walked out of the restaurant. [38:18] So her first son, Kent, confirmed later. [38:22] That's who she was. That is who she was. I love that Kent is just like, yeah, I don't know. She just did that. It reminds me of, again, a quick little tangent, but. We're tangenty today, but it's okay. I know I am. Go watch on Netflix, Man on the Inside. It's Ted Danson. Yeah. Real funny.

[38:36] two seasons, I think. Manko's? One season's very funny. They also have like a con woman in the second season that is reminding me very much of this, like would pull something off like that. Yeah. I got to watch that. You've been telling me that. It's one of those shows that is delightful. Yeah. Like I'm telling you, if you need a little, we could all use a little pick me up right now, a little fluffiness, a little whimsy, Man on the Inside with Ted Danson. I fucking love Ted Danson. Don't tell me anything about Ted Danson. I just love him. Oh my God, don't. [39:06] Just don't. Don't. I don't want to know anything. To me, he's awesome. And... [39:12] It's a great show. So I highly recommend it if you need like a little thing. It's just reminded me of it because it's very culinary. I'm going to watch that. Yeah. So back to this. It didn't take long for the D.C. police to catch up with Santa and she was charged with grand larceny because mink coats are very expensive. Yeah, that's a big deal. [39:27] But when the trial day came, she was just nowhere to be found. Yeah, she said, that's not for me. She said, no. That wasn't part of it. No, she's a lounge girl. She's not a trial girl. So the prosecutor proceeded with the case anyway, trying her in absentia, and she was found guilty. Oops. Which, it doesn't happen that often that they try you in absentia. Yeah. Which is a fun thing to say. That is really fun. Ready? [39:48] So she later appealed the conviction, arguing that her constitutional rights were violated when they tried her in absentia. But the lower court's conviction was upheld. They said, you know, they said, they said you larcenied. You did. Grandly. You larcenied a lot. So this was the first of many times that she would be caught committing crimes. But she always seemed to have a way of getting out of taking responsibility. Until the slavery charge came in 1985. Yeah.

[40:17] What? Yeah, she was charged with slavery. What? In 1985. I the year of Big Red. There's no that is the year of me. But my goodness. [40:28] I haven't, I don't know what the fuck is happening in this case. I've never heard of it in my entire life. It goes crazy. I did not look at this beforehand. That just took me. Yeah. [40:38] That just took me out. I figured I would kind of just deliver it to you in a normal tone. You just casually laid down that charge. And just really get your reaction. What the fuck? Yeah. [40:48] Oh, let's tell me about this. Okay, I will. So in the mid-1980s, Santa and Ken, they were living a good life in a large house in La Jolla, California. They had a staff of housekeepers to handle most of the responsibilities around the home. [41:01] At first, Santa treated the housekeeping staff very well, almost like family, almost like what we were saying with Irene earlier. But the difference was, as soon as they challenged Santa in any way, they found themselves on her bad side. Ew. Kent said, it's just like everything else in her life, elevated, elevated, elevated. And so the maids then became the enemy in the house. Oh, she's such an asshole. She sucks. That's so gross. [41:31] towards the housekeepers, so singling out one housekeeper who often traveled with them from California to their house in Hawaii. According to the criminal complaint, Santa was physically and verbally abusive towards this woman, who alleged that Santa and Ken locked her in her room, and she alleged, quote, she was not allowed to use a telephone or write to anyone and was never paid for her services.

[41:55] They literally forced her to work for them, locked her up when she wasn't working and let her out to work. [42:03] That's it. And treated her horribly and physically abused her as well. [42:08] What a fucking pair of monsters. Yes. So as a result, Santa and her husband were charged with violating federal peonage, which is forced labor and slavery laws. [42:19] Wow. And they were indicted. She's a real piece of shit. She's a big old piece of shit. So the indictments were the first charges of slavery to be pursued in the United States for... [42:31] many many many many many years yeah i bet and the evidence was damning ken accepted a plea deal and he was given a short uh short prison sentence and a large fine dick but santa on the other hand flatly rejected the accusation and actually tried to make herself the victim in all of it oh shut the fuck up she said she took the case to trial [42:52] Which is just insane. Like, I don't know why you would ever do that. You're literally accused of slavery. And she insisted that she was being framed. Yeah. [42:59] The jury did not buy that, and she was ultimately found guilty, but only spent three years in federal prison. Three years for a slavery charge? Yes. [43:08] Wow. Next level. [43:10] We're killing it. We're a broken system. We're really killing it. We're a broken system. We remain killing it. Yeah. Holy shit. So the conviction and the jail sentence, you would think would be a wake up call for Santa. Probably not. Maybe setting her on a path toward a more responsible, maybe law abiding life. Nah, she's a...

[43:26] Total bitch. Yeah, as anybody could have guessed, it didn't seem like that was the life she wanted, and she was a bitch. Actually, after being released from jail in the late 1980s, it seemed that not only did she not have any intention to stop committing crimes, but she actually had bigger and more elaborate schemes in mind. [43:42] huh she was like man i only got three years for slavery so i feel like i could fuck around some more yeah i mean that'll make you think you're invincible i guess yeah so after returning to their house in my birthplace honolulu whoa in 1989 things went back to normal for a little bit but it wasn't long before santa got back to her old ways the kimes family including kent were all living in las vegas when they got a call from john who was the caretaker of the house in hawaii [44:06] According to John, the house had caught fire and was reduced to ashes in a surprisingly short amount of time. Oh, no. Kent said, her oldest son said, I knew what happened. I didn't know the specifics, but there was no doubt in my mind. Damn. In fact, when he heard about the news at the house, he started thinking back to his own father and all of those times that Edward Walker's construction projects had burned in, quote unquote, mysterious circumstances. He's like, huh? He's like, that's weird. Fire seems to follow my mom wherever she goes. [44:36] So a few weeks after the house burned down, Santa obviously filed an insurance claim and she waited for her money to come in. Of course. But by that time, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, ATF, had taken an interest in the case and they started investigating what they believed to be arson. [44:51] A short time later, Elmer Holmgren, who was an unemployed lawyer and associate of Santa and Ken's, confessed to setting the fire. Oh, wow. He never mentioned Santa or Ken in his confession, but many, many people suspected that Santa had somehow convinced him to set the fire. A month later, another fire occurred, this time in Elmer Holmgren's office, where he had paper stored that could implicate Santa in the arson. Uh-oh.

[45:21] him to burn the house. But she assumed that it was only a matter of time before he did. And that type of accusation obviously would have landed her back in jail. Of course, where she belongs, where she belongs. But she's not going to have that. No, of course not. [45:33] And just as she expected he would, Elmer Holmgren did make a drunken confession to a friend in early 91 that it was he who had burned the house in Hawaii, but that he had done it for $3,000 given to him by Santa Kimes. But what he probably didn't expect was for his friend to immediately relay that information to ATF agents working on the case. And in exchange for a reduced sentence, he would. [45:55] He agreed to wear a wire and try to get Santa to confess to their arrangement. Damn. But the most federal agents ever got was a short message from Elmer who told them that the plan would have to be put on hold. He couldn't handle it. [46:09] Several months later, in August, Elmer told his family he was going on vacation to Costa Rica with Santa and Ken Kimes. [46:16] And that was the last time anybody ever saw him alive again. Yeah. According to Kent Walker, during a drunken fight with Kenny, his younger brother, Santa, and himself, his brother admitted that their mother had murdered Elmer Holmgren. Holy shit. Kenny allegedly shouted, she killed that guy. She was sitting in the backseat and she hit him with a hammer. Oh my God. Yeah.

[46:46] brought against santa or kenny and elmer's body has never been found holy shit yeah that's diabolical yeah [46:55] *music* [47:05] Thank you. [47:06] Do you know that feeling when working out finally clicks, when you finally feel like you get in a routine, when you can see the results, not just physically, but also like emotionally, mentally, automatically? [47:18] All of it. I don't know. Tell me about it. I'm going to tell you about it because finally when it clicks for me is when I get that clear headed feeling. I can I actually look forward to my workouts because I feel like they're kind of like a reset for me. Oh, heck yeah. Heck yeah. It's honestly it's worth it. You're it's worth it. It's an investment in yourself in every way that it can be. So I'm telling you one way you can do this is with Peloton. Peloton helps you unlock all the [47:48] gets through movement with the Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus powered by Peloton IQ. Peloton IQ builds a workout roadmap that's completely yours. So you can stop overthinking and just move, which is the hardest part. Peloton IQ provides intelligent strength coaching so you can stay in the moment. You can track every single rep, you can read every movement, and guiding form in real time. So there's no second guessing because that's always my thing

[48:18] right and they're like no you're not this is how you do it don't second guess yourself girl don't do it so spin the swivel screen too and feel what's possible moving from running to strength seamlessly without breaking any flow because we don't want to break that flow reach your flow state they're honestly the clarity that comes when you stop negotiating with yourself i'll just do it tomorrow i'll start it next week maybe if i get in this routine i'll feel better don't talk about it [48:48] I'm the person who will continue negotiating with myself until I'm 80 years old and I've yet to step on any single exercise equipment. So finally, when I stopped and I just got on my Peloton, I'm telling you, it's an investment. It's a worthwhile investment in yourself. So let yourself run, lift, fail, try and go. [49:13] Period. [49:15] Thank you. [49:16] Sling is the live TV service that puts viewers in charge of their entertainment at an unmatched value. Streaming live sports, shows, and movies starts at just $4.99 and everything works instantly across your favorite devices. The best part? Total control over the channel lineup. No paying for tons of channels that never get watched or local channels that are already free. And there's also no long-term contract. Live TV is available when it's wanted with flexible options like monthly subscriptions or one-day, three-day, or seven-day passes. [49:46] subscriptions can be paused at any time and entertainment doesn't stop over 600 free channels stay available even after pausing one thing that i love about sling is they have this thing called the cloud dvr and it includes 50 hours of storage but you can also upgrade that to 200 hours i love that that's awesome because i love to record my shows and watch them later and then fast forward through the commercials

[50:07] Choose and customize your favorite channel lineup or pause and watch for free. Sling lets you do that. Visit sling.com to learn more. [50:15] This is a paid ad by BetterHelp. There have been times in my life where I have been work, work, work, and nothing else, but that simply doesn't work for me. So I feel like the older I've gotten, I've really gotten much better at taking a step back, being able to prioritize a work-life balance that works for me. Not everybody thrives when life gets busy. You might catch yourself feeling drained even during things that you usually enjoy or realize that you've been pushing yourself more than you need to. It's important to take care of yourself when things get busy by resting, [50:45] and saying no when you need to. [50:47] Therapy can also be a great way to get out of autopilot and get a solid reset. Therapy with BetterHelp may help you understand your needs, feel more confident setting boundaries, and create a rhythm that feels sustainable. BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. Just take a short questionnaire to identify your needs and preferences, and BetterHelp will handle the initial therapist matching work for you. You can also feel confident knowing that BetterHelp therapists work [51:17] Take a pause with therapy. BetterHelp can help life feel manageable again. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash morbid. That's betterhelp.com slash morbid. [51:35] So in the years that followed, Santa and Ken, her Ken senior, the husband, seemed to be laying low and avoiding the attention of law enforcement somehow. But then out of the blue in 1994, poor Kent got a call from his mother who was in hysterics. I know I'm feeling bad about Kent. I do too, but there's good news. Can I feel bad about Kent? Yes. Okay. You could totally feel bad. I've been wanting to say that, but I was like, what if he's terrible? No, he's great. Okay. As far as I, well, I don't actually know anything about him.

[52:01] But from what I've seen, he's great. And there's like a nice little sprinkle in here that I'm glad he will get there. So but before that, in 1994, he gets this call from his mom. She's hysterical and she keeps repeating over and over. They won't fix him. And then she just hung up. That's it. Which is like maybe relay information. [52:19] Ken had no idea what she was talking about, but eventually he learned that his mother was referring to Ken Sr., who had just died from a brain aneurysm. Oh, man. [52:27] Yeah, I would feel a little bit worse if he wasn't guilty of slavery. If he wasn't charged with slavery. Yeah, exactly. Charged and convicted. Yeah, yeah. If that's the thing. So Ken's death sent Santa into a downward spiral if she wasn't already in one. And that caused her to become more erratic than ever. [52:46] Not only because her husband and literal partner in crime was gone, but also because when he died, he left her with nothing. [52:55] Wow. He left her with nothing. I mean, if you're both like that... [53:02] How are you expecting that you have an actual partner? Well, and that person's whole life is lying and conning. Exactly. Just like yours. Yes. [53:10] They're going to lie and con you too. Well, and the thing was, it wasn't even necessarily a lie and con situation. They'd been together for 20 years. And by that point, they'd blown through almost everything he had. Damn. Aside from a few non-liquid assets that weren't easy to access. Wow. So she didn't have any accounts of her own at that time. So she really had nothing. So her frantic desperation started to scare the shit out of Kent, her oldest son. And he eventually made the decision to step away from his family.

[53:40] and build a healthier life for himself. [53:42] Kent yeah Kent yeah [53:48] Kent. I'm proud of you, Kent. Yeah, I am too. [53:51] You know what? I know nothing about you. But I'm proud of you for that. But I'm very proud of you for that. And I hope you built a very healthy life for yourself and you're happy and thriving. And it's not easy to walk away from people. No. Like, it's really not. But it's necessary sometimes. That's healthy and well. That's healthness and wellness. It is. You know, it's healthy and wealthy. I thought is what you were going to say. I was going to say that. It is healthy and wealthy. Good job, Kent. I'm very proud of him. What a boundary. Yeah, we love a boundary king. And in the 90s, establishing a boundary, tough. Yeah, I've never heard of it. Tough. [54:21] Or even in the early aughts. No. So, of course, with Ken Kimes dead and Kent having become estranged from his mother and his brother, that left Kenny alone to deal with his dangerous and increasingly desperate mother. Yes. Who proved that she would stop at nothing to get what she wanted. Over the next two years, over the course of the next two years, Sante combed all of Ken's accounts looking for whatever money was left after his death. [54:45] In September of 1996, Santa and Kenny, so her son, were in the Bahamas staying at the house that they owned in Nassau. [54:52] And they had dinner with 48-year-old Saeed Bilal Ahmed. I looked up that pronunciation. I so hope I'm saying it correctly. That's what the internet told me to say. Saeed was an executive at the first Cayman Bank, where Ken had stashed some of his money. Santa invited Ahmed to dinner in the hopes that she could convince him to release $850,000 that was in Ken's account to her, despite the fact that she was not a signatory on the account. Damn. Yeah.

[55:22] several faxes and other documents over to the bank with Ken's forged signature, demanding that the money be sent to various American addresses. [55:31] But all of the requests were obviously unsuccessful because they were like, that man is dead. He didn't sign. We can't do that. [55:38] Now, in addition to his executive role at the bank, Ahmed was also the bank's auditor, right? [55:43] So he would have been made aware of any potential fraud or attempts at fraud. So obviously he suspected Santa Kimes of trying to fraudulently access the money in the account. He's like, this is kind of my thing. And he's like, yeah, I guess I'll have dinner with you. But like, I know what you're up to. I know you're a fraudster. Yeah. And those suspicions of fraud would have been confirmed quickly once the bank learned that Ken Kimes, like I just said, was in fact dead. Yeah. On the night of September 4th, Santa and Kenny met with Ahmed for dinner at the Androsia, which is a restaurant in Nassau. [56:12] Whatever happened during that dinner is unknown, but the staff at the restaurant recalled seeing Santa and Kenny leave with their dinner guest a little after 10 p.m. And Saeed Bilal Ahmed was never seen again. [56:24] What the fuck? This is crazy. It's diabolical. I had no idea how layered this was. A few days later, police in the Bahamas opened an investigation into Ahmed's disappearance. So not only were the mother and son the last people to be seen with the missing man, but a hotel employee at the Radisson, where Ahmed had been staying, reported two people matching the Kimes' description, attempting to get access to Ahmed's room a few days before he disappeared.

[56:54] They were planning this like well ahead of time. Malice aforethought, my darling. Yeah, very much. Despite their strong suspicions that they were responsible for Ahmed's disappearance, they weren't ever able to come up with anything strong enough to make an arrest. And it was only after Santa and Kenny were arrested on those several other crimes and facing the death penalty that Kenny Kimes confessed that he had drugged Ahmed that night, drowned him in the bathtub and dumped his body in the ocean. [57:21] all at Santa's request. [57:23] holy shit and it's like that's not gonna get you the money either so what's the fucking point you're just diabolical [57:31] You're just evil. [57:32] So after the murder of Saeed Bilal Ahmed, Santa spent months trying to fraudulently access her husband's accounts, demanding that the money be sent to some random address in the U.S. But obviously she was unsuccessful because people are smarter than that. According to Kent Walker, after Ahmed disappeared, the first Cayman bank was being liquidated. He said in part because of Ahmed's disappearance, because he was such a big part of the bank. Yeah, he was an auditor. Yeah. [58:02] she fucked herself and honestly i hope that that was his that's his like final fuck you yeah and i'm glad truly and i hope she thought about every day for the rest of her life [58:11] So by the fall of 1997, Santa and Kenny were basically broke, living in a run-down one-bedroom apartment in Fort Lauderdale. Oops. And that's when she came up with her latest scheme. Several years earlier, before Ken's death, Santa and Ken had transferred one of their properties to their friend Dave Kasdan in order to hide it from federal authorities. Ken and Kasdan had been friends since the 70s, and he had always been willing to help whenever they found themselves in a jam. He was a nice enough guy. In 98...

[58:41] Santa remembered that remembered that house, which imagine just having a home that you forgot about. She's like, we're really in a pinch. What do we do? What do we? Oh, I have that house. [58:53] So she came up with a scheme to get some quick cash after convincing a notary to forge Kasdan's signature on a loan document, which like, who are you, brother? Seriously. She took out a loan for [59:11] role. [59:11] holy shit the loan went through and santa got the money but in late january dave kasdan also learned of the scheme when he got a notice in the mail informing him that he'd taken out a second mortgage on a home he didn't even think he still owned wow yeah this is some rich people shit yeah so when kasdan called the bank to report the fraud it was already too late santa had already cashed the check and moved the funds into an offshore bank account i'm exhausted just listening to this i don't know how people live like that i don't either i really don't i also don't know [59:41] track of all this shit. Because I also, I'm allergic to admin. It's true. So I can't, [59:46] Imagine this. I don't even like the admin that I have to do. Yeah, this is so much admin. Yeah, it's a lot. And it's just a lot of, it's a lot of talking to people. It's a lot of convincing people. It's a lot of like, oh, yeah, I'm tired. It's pretty terrible. Pretty fucking terrible. So it turned out that the loan scheme was just the first step in Santa's process. Lord. A few weeks later, Dave Kasdan got a call informing him that his home in Las Vegas was [1:00:10] had burned down my goodness the arson the arson is everywhere

[1:00:14] In the days that followed, it was discovered that Santa had taken out an insurance claim on that house. And by the time Kasdan learned all the details, she'd already made off with the money. [1:00:23] She's... [1:00:24] She's diabolical. She's lava. So when Dave Kasdan started making reports to the authorities about who he thought was responsible for all the fraud, he started getting letters and faxes from Santa. In a fax from late February 1998, she wrote, I'll give you five days to stop all these lies. You know you endorse the loan. Why are you doing this? Wow. So she's literally like gaslighting him. She thought that establishing a paper trail would help support or claim that she had nothing [1:00:54] some point she obviously realized that wasn't going to work and she came up with another plan. [1:00:59] Two weeks after her last fax to Dave Kasdan, his body was discovered in a dumpster at the Los Angeles International Airport. [1:01:07] He'd been shot in the back of the head. [1:01:10] This lady needs to be stopped. She sure does. The coroner quickly identified him and made a homicide investigation was opened, and that was led by LAPD detective Bill Cox. It didn't take long for Cox and his partner to learn that Kasdan had recently been the victim of financial fraud, and according to his daughter, somebody had been harassing him in the weeks leading up to his death. [1:01:32] The daughter told them that her father was being harassed by Santa Kimes, and she suspected that Kimes had something to do with the death. So the detectives went to speak with Santa. [1:01:42] but they missed her by just a few hours. Oh, of course. By that time, she and Kenny had fled to Los Angeles in that Lincoln Town car that they picked up in Utah several weeks earlier. Remember, paying with a bad check. Wow. So for months, detectives in L.A. dug into Santa Kime's criminal history and reached out to any of her known contacts in the hope that somebody might know where she had gone. But they just kept coming up empty.

[1:02:12] in New York, informing him that Santa had been arrested there, and she and her son were suspected of murdering Irene Silverman. [1:02:20] So we're way, we went on a big old roundabout and we're all the way back. Yep. So when Santa and Kenny were arrested outside the Hilton Hotel in Manhattan, it had been on suspicion of check fraud in Utah. But what investigators found in their hotel room implied that something much larger was going on. In a bag, detectives found Irene Silverman's house keys, her passport, her checkbook, her social security card, and countless other personal documents. [1:02:50] When detectives found the Lincoln Town car two days earlier, they also found more damning evidence. They found several automatic pistols and ammunition, 10 different wigs, the sedative Flunitrazepam, and boxes of documents related to their business associates, including Elmer Holmgren, Dave Kasdan, and Saeed Bilal Ahmed. This is wild. That's not even it. [1:03:20] telephone conversations between irene and a woman who would eventually be identified as santa comes holy shit so they literally just had like like the smoking gun basically everything and one of the conversations santa posed as a manager of a las vegas casino and was trying to persuade irene to share her social security number in order for the casino to finalize details of a free trip that she had won

[1:03:44] I the Jen Shah of it all. I just can't. I can't imagine living life like this. I don't understand. And targeting an elderly woman, an elderly socialite. Yeah. What the fuck is wrong with you? Fuck. [1:03:57] I mean, she's already been convicted of slavery, so we know that there's a lot wrong with her. I was going to say, she has nothing inside of her. So in the months that followed their arrest, investigators worked tirelessly to rebuild Santa's extensive criminal history, which must have been exhausting. Because that included, at that point, arson, fraud, slavery, at least three suspected murders. Holy shit. And the murders stretched across the U.S. and into the Caribbean. My God. [1:04:27] early age had been shaped and molded into exactly what his mom wanted him to be. That's so disgusting. An accomplice, not a son. In addition to the crimes that he was believed to have committed with his mom, he'd also been arrested for domestic violence and assault. He had beat up one of his former girlfriends and another student when he was briefly in college. Ew, disgusting. Yeah, he's gross. Disgusting! Literally. So the case of Irene Silverman and Santa and Kenny Kimes quickly [1:04:57] up Santa's old nickname, which was the Dragon Lady, because of her association with arson, of course. But most were more fond of the new moniker that they'd given the pair, Mommy and Clyde. Mommy and Clyde is the perfect way to describe this. It's also diabolical. It is very diabolical. When I first read that, though, I was in. Yeah. That makes you just want to know everything. You're like, what? Yeah. I love a moniker. Yeah. So the first big break in the case came in late July, when investigators found a notarized deed in Santa's possession,

[1:05:27] that Irene transferred ownership of her townhouse to Santa and Kenny at a value of $390,000. Oh yeah, I bet. That was less than 10% of its value. [1:05:37] Wow. No. Good try. [1:05:39] Despite the compelling evidence, though, Sanda and Kenny both maintained they had nothing to do with Irene's disappearance. You lie. We just have her checkbook, her passport, her social security card. In recordings. Recordings of us. Of me trying to fraud her. Yeah. It's just, we were doing that, but we didn't kill her. Yeah, I don't even know her. Oh, okay. For the prosecutors, the biggest problem wasn't that they maintained their innocence. It was the fact that they still hadn't found Irene Silverwood. They didn't have a body. And at that time, she obviously was assumed to be dead. [1:06:06] Despite the lack of a body, though, District Attorney Robert Morgenthau decided to move forward with the case. And in December of 1998, Santa and Kenny Kimes were indicted for murder on purely circumstantial evidence. [1:06:20] Morgan Thau said, the mere fact you don't have a body doesn't give somebody a walk. All the facts show that the murder was committed. Yeah. Which is very true. Where is she? So when the trial finally arrived in the spring of 2000, it was exactly as sensational and chaotic as everybody expected. Before both sides had even selected the jury, Santa had to be ordered by the judge to stop speaking to the media after she continuously reached out to members of the press to give interviews. That checks.

[1:06:50] And the note said, the deed is real. The notary is liable and lying. They know where she is. [1:06:55] girl, you're doing the most. And then that wasn't even her doing the most. That was just the beginning of her crazy ass behavior. She's already doing the most. In late April, after the judge repeatedly told her lawyer to stop a certain line of questioning, Santa became irate and started yelling at the judge, Your Honor, how can we have fairness? And then she went on to compare the trial to the Salem witch trials. And then told the judge that she was, quote, [1:07:25] Murdering the Constitution. Shut the fuck up. [1:07:30] This bitch went nuts. I hope someone just said, shut the fuck up. Can you imagine being accused of murdering the Constitution? No. You know what? Get a life. Get a life. Get a life. [1:07:42] Throughout the trial, the prosecutor called over 100 witnesses, all of whom spoke to the criminality of Santa and Kenny. Mommy and Clyde. Mommy and Clyde. And presented a ton of evidence that established a direct connection to Irene Silverman. The only thing that they couldn't get around was the fact that there still was no body and technically no conclusive proof of murder. But in his closing statement, defense attorney Michael Hardy reminded the jury of that very thing. He said there's no body, no witnesses, there's no proof of any murder at all. Oh, yeah. [1:08:12] So on May 16th, the jury retired for deliberation, and when they returned two days later, the [1:08:18] They found both defendants guilty. Good. I was going to say, if they get off, I'm going to riot in the street. Yeah, no, they were both found guilty, not just of the murder of Irene Silverman.

[1:08:28] But on over a hundred other charges related to fraud, larceny, and kidnapping, among others. Yeah. That next month, they went before a judge to be sentenced, and the judge referred to Santa as a sociopath of unremitting malevolence. Yes. And her son as a vacuous dupe who had evolved into a remorseless predator under his mother's influence. I have never heard a better description of two people in my entire life. Vacuous dupe goes crazy. No notes. [1:08:58] No notes. You are a sociopath of unremitting malevolence. And a vacuous dupe and a remorseless predator. Obsessed. Just... [1:09:06] well chef's kiss yeah when asked if they had anything to say on their own behalf santa spoke up for the both of them and she said all of our precious civil and constitutional rights were trampled much like the witch hunts of old salem shut your mouth police planted and planted and planted evidence to fool the jury no one has been told the truth in this case you didn't that's not even a good like [1:09:29] you know, [1:09:30] correlation there's what are you talking about please like what are you talking you have nothing to do with the Salem witch trial shut up so when basically the judge felt the same way and they were like okay are you done speaking and she was like I'm all done and he said okay cool I or she said I sentenced you to 120 years in hell yeah and Kenny was sentenced to 126 years in prison that's awesome yeah just love I was like six more years he was like you done here you done here okay [1:09:54] So in the wake of their sentencing, Santa and Kenny, of course, did not just fade into obscurity. Of course not. Still facing potential murder charges in California, Nevada, and Nassau, Kenny felt that it was his duty to make sure his mommy was spared from the worst of the consequences. Damn, dude.

[1:10:14] Kenny took her hostage by holding a ballpoint pen to her throat. [1:10:19] What? While holding her hostage, he demanded his mother not be extradited to Los Angeles, where they both faced the death penalty for the murder of Dave Kasdan. Fortunately, officers were able to create a distraction that allowed them to safely remove Maria's own from the room and Kenny's attempts to save his mommy failed. He is so pathetic. It's really pathetic. Like, ew. Yucky. A few months later, both Santa and Kenny were extradited to Los Angeles and charged with Dave Kasdan's murder. [1:10:49] Now facing the death penalty, Kenny accepted a plea deal from the prosecutor where he would confess to the murders in exchange for taking both death penalty sentences off the table. After pleading guilty, he confessed to the murders of Saeed Bilal Ahmed, David Kasdan, and Irene Silverman. [1:11:07] And as part of the deal, he was required to detail all of the crimes for investigators. So according to Kenny, after they failed to get Irene's money through deception, they resorted to violence. On the afternoon of July 5th, they went to the townhouse where he and Santa tased Irene, an 84-year-old woman, and then Kenny strangled her. Oh, poor Irene. Once she was dead, they put her body in several garbage bags and put her in a dumpster in Hoboken, New Jersey. Wow. [1:11:36] To this day, her remains have never been found. [1:11:39] Wow. [1:11:40] And I just want everybody to remember... [1:11:43] how I described Irene for you, like the lengths that she went to, to make other people feel special and all of the connections that that woman had, how generous she was, how generous she was, how talented. And they wrapped her body up and threw it in a dumpster in Hoboken. Yeah.

[1:11:58] Like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah, that's all for money. Yeah, that's it. Which, meanwhile, if he had been nice to her and actually ingratiated himself, he probably would have got money or something, anything. So in 2004, they were both found guilty of Dave Kasdan's murder, but no charges have ever been brought up in the other two cases. [1:12:20] After their convictions, Senta returned to New York to continue serving her life sentence for the murder of Irene Silverman. And on May 19th, 2014, she died of natural causes at Bedford Hills Correction Facility for Women. She was 79. [1:12:34] It's pretty old. [1:12:36] I feel like that's kind of young to die of natural causes. 79 in prison, though. Yeah, in prison. That's true. Kenny Kimes remains incarcerated at the Richard J. Donovan Correctional Facility in San Diego, California. And that is the case of Mommy and Clyde. [1:12:53] Wow. Jam-packed. That was a non-stop thrill ride. Wasn't it? That was... [1:13:00] I'm shook. It was insane. And what kills me is like the amount of people that they just disposed of. Like they were nothing. When they didn't need... [1:13:09] them anymore or when they didn't give them what they wanted exactly like that's so disgusting it's such like predatory inhuman behavior and obviously kenny is a piece of shit but it's really sad that he was just like he was molded to be what that's the thing that he was just like he didn't have a choice you feel bad for the child version of him and then he became an adult when you become an adult you make your own choices exactly you don't choose as a child but as an adult you make a choice

[1:13:39] hear the fun fact i found i really do the world's oldest dog lived to be 29 and a half years old [1:13:47] I want to have that dog. And their name was Bluey. [1:13:51] Bluey. Bluey. Oh. [1:13:53] Yep. [1:13:54] Yeah, that is a fun thought. Louis the Australian cattle dog survived to the ripe old age of 29 and a half. I want my dogs to live to 29 and a half. Sydney, Blanche, and Dolores will live to be 100. Thank you. I will take no further questions. With that, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. And definitely so weird that you spend the rest of your life with your dog. Yeah. Because they're going to live forever. Do it. Bye. That's the weirdest Santa, though. No. [1:14:21] Thank you. [1:14:27] you [1:14:30] Thank you. [1:15:00] Thank you.

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