UPDATE: Katelin Akens

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now wherever you get your podcasts. [00:30] *music* [01:00] All right, crime junkies. So back in March of this year, we released episode 15 of our podcast about the missing person case of Caitlin Akins. And it has been one of the most discussed cases by our listeners. Yeah, we get messages all the time about it on Facebook and Instagram. And people have discussed the case endlessly in our Facebook discussion group. And everyone has the same questions. And they're all about James. [01:30] do not get into the nitty-gritty details of the case. So if you're new to our podcast, or if you need a refresher on the details of Caitlin's case, please go back and listen to episode 15, which was titled Missing Caitlin Akins. And for this episode, I actually had the opportunity to talk to Caitlin's mom, Lisa, and ask her some of the questions that I have seen repeated in so many places online. And before I jump in, I want to make clear, no one has been convicted of any crime in this case,

[02:00] and anything discussed is from the viewpoints of the family members in this case. Please tell me you asked Lisa about James. Oh, I will. But really quick, I have to tell you something that endeared me to Caitlin even more than I already was. Lisa asked me if we really lived in Indiana. Do you live in Indiana? No. [02:18] I do. I live in Indianapolis. [02:21] You know, Catelyn was born in Indiana. [02:23] I didn't know that. Where was she born? She was born in Goshen, Elkhart County. Oh my god, I'm like a stone's throw away from there right now. I work in Elkhart. I know, I couldn't believe it. It's really such a small world, and Caitlin's biological dad actually still lives in the state. Wow. I know. So... [02:41] Once Lisa told me a little bit more about Caitlin, I, of course, had to ask the questions about James. Because one of the main documentaries on Caitlin's case, that disappeared episode that we watched, really revolved around him. And I asked Lisa if she thought the disappeared episode was a good representation of the case. Was it a good place to start? They actually did a really good job. [03:04] Good, good, okay. I thought so too, but I never know. One thing I was thinking of, we already knew... [03:11] Right away that Caitlin and Saccone, in the Saccone case were not linked. [03:17] Oh, you did? They did that first, yeah. [03:20] Mm-hmm. [03:21] Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Cause everyone kept talking about it. Like they were linked for a long time. Like everything online, people kept coming back to it. [03:28] Yeah, and they weren't. They ruled that out from the very beginning. Okay, good. Okay, perfect. Oh, that's interesting. Based on the way the show laid out the case and the way everyone was talking online, I would have thought there was more of a question about whether the two cases might be connected. Yeah, same. Everyone keeps linking them online still, but I guess that was all ruled out pretty early. So then the focus must have really been on James from the start.

[03:58] there. I asked her about the morning she dropped Caitlin off. Was it really her idea to take [04:04] Caitlin to James's house. Yeah, my sister's husband was and her was supposed to take Caitlin there, but his work had mandatory overtime. So he couldn't take her. He was afraid he was going to miss the plane. But he got off work. [04:17] Okay. [04:18] And he was the only other person we can think of that would take him, and she was actually okay about it. [04:23] Okay. Yeah. And so you guys, did you have a pretty cordial relationship after your divorce? Like, did you see him regularly? [04:30] It took a little, it took probably about a year because the first little bit, I was not happy. Even though I was the one that left, I was just, with everything that was going on, you know what I mean? But he was always angry with us and was just hard to explain. He always had these depressed modes where he didn't want to hang out with nobody. We wouldn't see him for a couple hours a week, and when we did, he was always angry. Yeah. [04:56] And that was after you guys got divorced or is that part of what went after the divorce? That was where I left. So maybe he was kind of unstable and these mood swings weren't really a surprise. I don't think his mood swings were that severe. I mean, enough to divorce. But through my whole talk with Lisa, it was really clear that her and her family are all as baffled by this as everyone else. So it's not like they ever expected him to go nuts. Even looking back on it, it still doesn't make sense to them. [05:26] Baitland's relationship and her sister's Gabby relationship, how they were with James after the divorce.

[05:31] And then he, since he was a stepfather, he, James was the only father figure that my girls knew, Caitlin and Gabby, besides my brother and my sister's husband. [05:41] Because her real father was never really in her life, either one of their lives, because they got the same father. [05:48] Caitlin's real father hasn't seen her since she was three. [05:51] So did they, did Caitlin and James have an okay relationship, I guess, while you were married? And then like at the time that she went missing? What was that like? [05:59] At first they did. They had a pretty okay relationship. Towards the end, they did not. [06:06] But he stayed in their life. They didn't like seeing him at first, but he would always bring them birthday presents and Christmas presents. And they realized that he wasn't being mean anymore. He wasn't being rude. We weren't living in that situation anymore. They were like, okay. And they were more accepting that way. [06:27] If I needed anything at all, if I needed him to help me with groceries or... [06:31] pay a bill if the girls needed something, he would get it for us. But no problem. He didn't even bat an eye. This is the strangest part for everyone that's heard this case, is that they were so comfortable with him. And to think of a reason why he would just turn on them, it doesn't make sense to anybody. And it's something that even Lisa cannot fully grasp. [06:52] Yeah, when I left them that morning, everything was fine. They were talking by the front door, right by the side of the couch. Caitlin was talking about her high school diploma, about how she was going back to school. Everything seemed fine.

[07:06] So when she dropped her off, James was acting normal. Caitlin was acting normal. [07:11] But what about before she dropped Caitlin off? We obviously now know that the night before, Caitlin had a rough night, cheated on her fiancé, and was obviously going through something. Did she really not show any of that? I asked her mom that very thing. She didn't bring up anything. Caitlin seemed normal. She seemed a little tired, but she... [07:29] And [07:30] Was a teenager. She spent the night and stayed up late. You know, she was being a normal teenager. She had to wake up earlier than what she wanted to. She was tired. She was texting on her phone and was excited to go back so she could start school. So everything that day seemed normal to Lisa until she hears from Amber, who's Caitlin's fiancee at the time, who said something is wrong with Caitlin's flight. And Lisa was like, no, that's not right. There's nothing wrong with her flight. That's the only flight she has. [08:00] texts back and forth with Amber and with James because James had told her that he had dropped Caitlyn off and everything was fine. Right. Right. [08:07] Well, when pressed, James says he dropped her off at the mall instead of the airport. Right. And from everything I found online, it said that Lisa thought this was fishy because Caitlin had never rode the bus from the mall to the airport. Right. [08:20] But when I actually talked to Lisa on the phone, she said that her problem with this story was even bigger than this. When I talked to her, she said that Caitlin had never even been to that mall and probably didn't even know it existed. That was fishy because...

[08:36] Even though we live in Virginia, we never went to northern Virginia because there was so much traffic. We never went to the malls up there. If we did, it was not that mall. I didn't even know that mall existed. [08:48] Oh, interesting. [08:51] Neither did, how did Caitlin know? If we never went there, we never talked about that law. I don't even know how she would know that law existed. [08:56] This makes the whole dropping her off at the mall story seem even less plausible. I know. Does Lisa think that any part of James' story is true? I asked her about this, too, because I couldn't shake it. Why make up this whole story about dropping her off at the mall if they can prove that you weren't there? Why not just make up a story about dropping her off at the airport instead? I mean, thinking about it now, I think the whole story is made up because he never went back to work. He never, he went, he didn't go back to work for like six months. [09:26] Hold up. [09:28] He didn't go back to work for six months after Caitlin went missing? Right? And when he goes back to work, he isn't even working for the same company. Like, what is going on in your life that you need six months off of work? You are a no-call, no-show, and then just never go back? That is so suspect. Yeah, and the day Caitlin went missing, if you'll remember from our episode, the whole reason he had to drop her off early that day was because he said that he had to work. [09:58] confirmed that. That day, he was scheduled and just didn't show up. He was scheduled, but he was a no call, no show. He never showed up. Mm-hmm. [10:06] And then he never went back to that job? He never went back to that job. He didn't go, Kate went missing in that December.

[10:12] 5th? He never went back to work until like that June or July. [10:16] When I asked Lisa what she thought that all of this stuff with his work meant, this is what she said. [10:23] So, thinking about all of that and him lying about going to the mall, I'm thinking his whole story's made up. Okay, and I have to ask about those cell phone pings, because that was really the red flag to police that James' story was bogus, even before the mall surveillance video. [10:38] Yeah, and Lisa confirmed that all of the pings weren't anywhere near the mall or the airport. His pings from his house. Caitlin's pings from Thornburg to Cowan Boulevard to Stafford. I don't really know Virginia very well, so what do those areas mean? She said that these areas are really close together, and actually where her phone ping was almost on the way to Springfield, where the mall was if you were coming from James' house. [11:08] are concentrated near James' house. His cell phone is at his house. And where Caitlin's cell phone pinged is actually on the way if you were to drive from James' house to... [11:19] to the airport or mall. [11:21] Oh, wow. Is there anywhere else Caitlin's phone pings were close to? Well, the Cowan Boulevard ping? You can use Cowan Boulevard to go to... [11:32] And get to River Road where her luggage was dumped. So we know these phones were pinging in the wrong location all day. But the number one question I got online was, is it possible for James to have just left his phone at home while he drove her? And maybe that's why it shows he didn't leave his house?

[11:51] It's possible, but to me that doesn't explain Caitlin's. But I asked Lisa this anyways. He could have been out there without his phone, but... [12:01] He would use GPS. I don't even know if he knows where Springfield Mall is. He might. Because he used to work up in Northern Virginia at the different gas station that's the Wawa he worked at. So he might know exactly how to get there. I don't know. So he could have left it at home. [12:15] Doesn't really explain Caitlin's phone because if he took her and left his phone at home, her phone still should have moved. Right. I'm still not totally clear why we can't just get more information from James's cell phone. Because James was actually a super techie guy and his phone didn't have a normal operating system. He's a techie. [12:35] When the Android phones first came out with a slide-up keyboard, do you remember those? We had those. [12:42] When they first came out, Janice put his own operating system on him when we first got him. So police couldn't crack it because he put his own operating system on it. Yeah, Lisa said as far as she knows, they've tried bringing in experts to look at this, but everyone has failed. And that's the main phone that he would have been using. And now they can't get into it and he's not helping them get into it. And just to be clear, they for sure never found Caitlin's phone. No, they didn't. Does Lisa and her family believe it was him texting from her phone that day? [13:12] I think so, because it wasn't her. [13:15] The way those texts work for back-to-back text messages, she doesn't do that. Yeah. And I was looking back on my old phone that I had then, at some of his text messages, and some of the warnings was his, but I don't know. You know what I mean? Yeah. But it's not hers.

[13:30] So the way Caitlin, air quotes, was texting the day she went missing looked like some of James' old texts. Yeah, but Lisa said she can't be sure. So Britt, I have to ask you, there's this question that I had that no one else asked. [13:45] asked. So maybe I'm just like way too deep in the weeds here and it really doesn't matter. But it seems like something that's like a huge glaring oddity to me that needs to be answered. What is it? Caitlin's luggage. When we talked about it, the wheel was broken. And per investigators, they said it looked like it had been thrown out of a moving vehicle. Yeah, I remember that. Okay, but how? Like, again, the story that most of us are going off of is something probably happened [14:15] James probably had something to do with it. We're only talking about James. How would he alone have thrown luggage out of a moving vehicle? It was a big piece of luggage. That one wheel was broken off of it. So I'm thinking they threw it out of the car while it was moving. [14:34] So it almost seems like it would have to have been two people, right? One driving and one throwing the suitcase out or... Possibly. He had it ready, but I don't know if you would have enough room when your driver's not to throw it out the window while you're driving. So I'm thinking maybe two people. [14:47] How did we not talk about this during the episode? This feels kind of big. [14:51] Would it have been Caitlin? I still don't think so. I haven't found anyone that I've talked to who thinks Caitlin just ran off. So who then? Were there even any other suspects?

[15:03] I talked to Lisa about this. I said, you know, would there have been anyone who would have helped him or maybe would have been there after things went wrong? The only person I know that would help him that day would be his mom. [15:16] He doesn't really have many friends at all. He's a homebody. He doesn't go anywhere. He doesn't do anything. He doesn't really have any friends. [15:26] I know one friend that he has, and I don't think his friend would help him do that. Where does his mom live? Close enough that she could feasibly get to him quick and help? [15:35] Britt, this is where I believe that all of the answers to this case lie. She actually lives in his other house and me and him living together because he owns two houses. In our episode, I only remember you telling me about one property that they searched. [15:48] Because they did only search one. My first question to Lisa when I heard this was if they searched both or just the one that he lived in at the time. And I usually try my best on these calls to like be silent and keep my cool, but I just couldn't at this part. I'm so sorry. Just the one he lives in because the other one she's considered as a tenant. [16:09] Because he doesn't actually live there. [16:11] So they never searched that other property? [16:16] Oh my God. - And I've asked them to do it several times, and they can't. - Why? [16:21] Because even though he owns it, he doesn't live there. Somebody else does. [16:25] Yeah, I know, but he has – like, oh, my gosh, I think that's crazy. If, like, you have access to somewhere, you would think you could get a search warrant –

[16:33] Even though he's not there, like if I have access to a friend's house and they suspected me of killing somebody, I would assume they would still get a search warrant. [16:42] Right. But they, I guess they can't. Oh my God. I also asked Lisa more about the search they did of this one property. Yes. They said they searched everything. [16:52] What they confiscated that day when they searched his stuff, he never asked for it back. [16:57] Wait, so they still have everything they confiscated? [17:01] It's because of vehicles. What? [17:05] Yeah, his bones, his guns... [17:07] That he had of his dad's, his bed sheets, his pillows, everything. And he never wanted it back. [17:14] No. Does Lisa still live close to James and his mother? Yeah. I actually talked to her about the last time she saw him, and I asked her when that was. Face-to-face was, um, um, December was a year, so I haven't seen him. [17:29] I talked to him in 14 months, 15 months. [17:34] Because not this past December, but this December before that, I went to his house and I begged and asked him to go talk to the police, talk to somebody about Caitlin. And I told him, if you don't, only put your name and phone number and address and everything out there. [17:47] He just didn't care. [17:48] He didn't dance. He wouldn't do it. He told me that was going to ruin him. I'm like, I know. That's why I'm here. I want you to go say something. And he still wouldn't do it. [17:57] She said one time her other daughter even saw him more recently.

[18:06] Do you ever see him? No, I haven't really come across him because I've been working a lot. My other daughter, Gabrielle, she's... [18:14] come across from the Walmart one time and they looked at each other and she ran away. [18:19] Went another way. When did it turn into this? I remember from the episode he cooperated with the police and the family for a while. Did he just shut down after he became a person of interest? According to Lisa, they all knew from day one that he was going to be a person of interest. So she's not sure what made him shut down. Because I told him when I talked to him that day when I was on my way home, that night when she went missing, I talked to him at 6.[redacted address] home. [18:48] And I told him, I said, you know that you are the last person to see her. You're going to be a person of interest, right? He said, I know that. He already knew. [18:55] And he was fine talking then. He's a very intelligent person. Even after you told him he was going to be a person of interest, he talked for a while. [19:01] Yeah. [19:02] Is Lisa concerned for her safety at all? Yeah, I actually asked her this because I would be a little. There's obviously something that happened to your daughter. You think you know who did it. [19:13] And you're openly telling him that you think he had something to do with it. If he is this killer, like, could there be backlash? But she was less concerned. No, I don't think he will. [19:23] Because I think everybody knows that [19:26] That he did something to Caitlin, I think he's going to be too big of a chicken or a coward to do anything else. [19:32] Right now. Because the spotlight's on him. So she very clearly thinks she knows who. But does...

[19:38] Lisa believes she knows the why... [19:40] We have a lot of theories for that day. [19:43] We just don't know which one it would be until he comes clean. I asked Lisa if there was any small part of her that believed Caitlin was still out there. I still hope she's out there somewhere, but where, I don't know. [19:55] Yeah. [19:56] Thank you. [19:57] If she's not alive, we don't know. [19:59] I know with the time and stuff like that, it's not good, but I still hope she is. Knowing the story from the outside, I told Lisa it was just so hard to believe that Caitlin would have just left her family like this. [20:13] It was so obvious that she loved them, and it just didn't make sense, at least not to me, that she would just walk off. It wouldn't have. [20:21] She was so excited about Landon being born. She couldn't wait to see him. She couldn't wait to be an aunt. She would have never left that baby. [20:27] She would have never missed out on his life. [20:30] If anything, that would have made her move home. [20:33] Did not run away. Yeah, I can't help but agree. I know her diploma was gone, but nothing else points to this being a runaway. [20:41] Yeah, not even her complicated relationship. And Lisa and I discussed this. There are a thousand ways to get out of an engagement. And if that really was the problem, I'm sure Caitlin would have known that she could just stay home in Virginia. Yes, she always knew that. I told her when she left. She was 18 years old. I'm like, honey, wherever I'm at is always her home. I don't care if it's two months from now, three months from now. [21:03] Three years from now, 30 years from now, we're around that. It's your home, too. Yeah. [21:07] You can always come home. I don't care when. She always knew that. Have there been any updates recently from the local police? No. I asked Lisa how often she gets to talk to them. I talk to them about once a week. Yeah.

[21:21] Because he's a person calling him all the time. There's nothing new. Yeah. [21:25] Yeah. I didn't miss you. [21:27] It makes you more depressed talking to him every day or every other day, and there's nothing. As far as Lisa knows, the police are just waiting for something new to come in to reinvigorate the case. And I asked if James is officially considered a person of interest by police. As far as I know, he's a person of interest. Have they ever named anyone else a person of interest? [21:48] No. Is there anyone else that James might have talked to in the last couple years? Anyone that might know his secrets? Not that I know of, no. If he talks to anybody, it would be his mom. Is she still alive? No. [21:59] Yeah. She lives at the other house he owns. So that's it? She's just stuck waiting? Yeah. And I asked Lisa if this is sometimes the hardest part, just not being able to do anything to get those answers. Yeah, it is. [22:15] You never know. You think I'll wake up every day. It's going to be the day. Because we think about it all day long. [22:22] Even when I walk, because I work at a convenience store, I walk down the aisle and be like, Caitlin used to like those. [22:27] Certain candies or like banana flavored Laffy Taffy, stuff like that. I can't even use the love of those. [22:34] You know, just certain things. And the baby, Landon, he's got so many characteristics of Caitlin. The way he does things, the way he smiles. A lot of it's her. A lot of it is a lot like her. Finally, when I kind of ended things with Lisa, I just asked her if there was any way that we could all help as podcasters, as listeners. And this is what she said. I mean, just keep sharing her stuff. Keep talking about her, you know? I want people to know that she's still missing. I want...

[23:02] I want to round. [23:03] Keep sharing ourselves. [23:06] So everyone, after this episode, please go to Facebook. There are two groups, Find Caitlin and Help Find Caitlin Akins. Please share some of her stuff on your page. The more people we can get to share and see her face, the better chances we have of helping find Caitlin. And if you want more information on Caitlin's case, make sure to check out episode 15 of our podcast. We also have an accompanying blog post at CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. And we will be back [23:36] on Monday with a regular episode. [24:06] pod on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast and check out our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. You can sign up for our newsletter there and be one of the first to know when merch is available. Thanks, guys. [24:18] Talk to you next week.

[24:51] Okay, crime junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? [25:09] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now and I've been listening for years. [25:13] I think you'll love it too. [25:14] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.