The Wizards Win (Something!) and More Lottery Reactions, Plus the Juggernaut Knicks With Joe House, Tate Frazier, and Chris Vernon

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[01:30] What a special day here on the Bill Simmons podcast live on Netflix. [01:36] Thanks. [01:36] Tate Frazier is here, employee number one at The Ringer back in 2015, now a host for us. [01:43] on a ringer tailgate pops on a bunch of our shows a college basketball expert [01:47] There, I would say. And more importantly... [01:50] Because Zach Lowe couldn't be here today because he – [01:53] was at the lottery. [01:55] Watching Joe House's favorite team. Oh, yeah. We called it. [01:58] We called it to being Joe House. You finally got the number one pick in an awesome draft. I've known you since 1988. [02:06] September, September. [02:07] We ate food and played pickup basketball together. That's how this all started. I have never seen your Wizards even make the conference finals. [02:15] You've never had a truly awesome player in your team. You've had fun players. You've had good players. You haven't had an awesome player. How are you feeling? [02:24] Well, let me say... [02:25] Right up front that it is, of course, ridiculous. [02:31] irrational. [02:32] For a grown ass man. [02:36] With a mortgage. [02:37] To derive... [02:39] Such enormous pleasure. [02:42] Joy for something as dumb as... [02:45] as where the ping pong balls land. But let me tell you right now, [02:50] I apologize to absolutely fucking nobody. The champ is in the house. Number one is right here, baby. And we got it done with my guy number two, John Wall, in that chair. And look what we do. We do it with a doggy.

[03:10] John Wall. I'm just glad you have pants on. [03:14] Unbelievable. I wasn't encouraged to whip my dick out. [03:20] prepared an acceptance speech for today. I did a little acceptance speech. Oh, Taylor, clear out. Let's hear it. Yeah, let's hear it. So, uh, [03:28] I have to start with my wife because today is Mother's Day, and she agreed that we could end Mother's Day today at 3 o'clock p.m. Eastern so I could get in, locked in. [03:38] That focus was... [03:40] Crucially important. Good karma. Good karma. Plus, you probably had some drinks at brunch with her, so you're feeling great. We did that. The Bloody Marys. That put us in the right frame of mind. [03:50] Huge thanks to Ernie Grunfeld. [03:52] to Tommy Shepard, to Jan Vesely, [03:56] To Johnny Davis. [03:57] All the way up to this moment, finally, with incredible infrastructure, a brain trust who created... [04:06] The tank of all tanks, a tank so brilliant and beautiful in execution. [04:11] that the league had to change the goddamn tank. We'll never have a lottery like this again. I'd like to thank Coach Brian Keefe, Sharif Cooper, Juju Reese, Jameer Watkins, Alondez Williams, all the guys. They poured their heart out. [04:24] All my old DC guys, John O'Ran. We'll go all the way back to Wiznuts. Shout out to Wiznuts, my guy, Dan Shanoff, Christian Dineski, all of the old heads. [04:34] Bar. [04:34] So over the top with this one. [04:37] We got our guy. We got the number one pick. And I'll humbly accept the number one selection today. Emotional stuff. Tate.

[04:45] They earned it. They went one for 24 in their last 25 with a net rating of minus 14.6. [04:51] I think somewhere in there was the Bam Adebayo 83-point game, which was one of the most humiliating nights in the history of the NBA. Thank you, Bam. They traded for two expensive former superstars that just didn't play all year, Trae Young and Anthony Davis. [05:07] Played it perfectly. Just a win from start to finish. 50 wins in the last three years, Tate, for the Wizards, and it's finally paid off. Yeah, they did it. Yeah, worst record in the NBA. It kind of feels like they deserved it, right? Finally, we see the team with the worst record get the number one pick, so that was encouraging to see. And I just love Joe House. I mean, he's out of breath right now as he gives us his full breakdown. Yeah, I was worried he was going to die. It's going to be a sweaty two hours today. Can we talk about how... [05:34] the rig for this year was the anti-rig. [05:37] The brilliance of Adam Filler. It was. The tremendous zag was that the teams with the worst records grabbed the top three picks. Now, the Brooklyn Nets were on the outside looking in. But when you did your karma rankings with Nick Wright, [05:51] magnificent as always by the way. Shout out Nick Wright. My buddy. We've never met but we're friends. [05:58] You didn't have Brooklyn very high. You thought it was like you know did Brooklyn deserve the karma right? I thought their first rounders were so stupid last year I had to deduct points. I just didn't understand anything they did. Yeah when you think about it [06:11] And we'll talk about Indiana and the Clippers in a second, because that was the most momentous thing that happened, other than who got the number one pick. But for the most part, Golden State didn't move up.

[06:20] Atlanta didn't get in the top four as a possible Giannis Suter. [06:24] Um, nothing truly goofy happened. And you would think the league would want to take care of Indiana, a team that lost their best guy to a terrible Achilles injury in game seven and not give the fifth pick to the Clippers. [06:36] But that's what happened. We have to talk about this. I really want to dive in that Quipper thing. [06:41] We have to talk about this Washington pick because it seems like AJ is the guy. I predicted this to you, Tate, two months ago. Yeah. I was just like, this is a wrap. AJ is going to be the guy. And it seems like he's the guy. [06:53] Couldn't help but mention there was a look on his face after the lottery. There was a picture that got sent around about a half hour later where it looked like, [07:02] Not just one of his dogs died, but like he had three dogs that he grew up with and they all died in the same explosion in the living room or something. [07:10] Do you see a world where he doesn't go number one here, whether either somebody trades into this spot or Washington says screw it and takes Darren Peterson? Yeah, it could be like a Chris Webber situation, right, where like a team really loves him and they don't like the fit. So maybe they trade up to get him at number one. It does feel like Utah obviously has invested. I mean, I don't even know how many years, what, five years, seven years. Yeah, you run the numbers about all the millions of dollars from the BYU and IL to when he went out there to play for high school. [07:40] his mind when he got to the final four, he's thinking, all right, Adam Silver, he cooked the books for me. I'm going to stay in Utah. I'm going to be a happy camper. This is going to be great. And then when number two popped up, you could just see it. He was like, oh, wow, this is real.

[07:54] He's like, where's Washington? Is that near Philly? I think it hit him in real time. I also saw a lot of people say that he was like, you know, he's a very no-nonsense, all-business type of guy. So that was an all-business response. I do think he had a little bit of like, oh, man, [08:10] But it leads itself to a situation. We were already texting about this. I mean, if you're Washington, maybe you call up, you know, and kind of see what they're willing to offer, because obviously Utah is in love with him. There's also the other wrinkle where Carlos Boozer is a scout for Utah and obviously has his son in the top three. And played for the Jazz for a while. And played for the Jazz, right? So, like, there may be something where they're happy there at number two and they're going to get Cam Boozer, which means Peterson could even fall back to a 3-4 range, depending on what Memphis likes. [08:40] you know, the one, two, three, four situation, even more fun. [08:43] Yeah, House and I... [08:45] We've already kind of ruined the podcast with a bunch of texts about this already. And basically, as soon as it all settled down, it's like, all right, House, let's say Utah really wants that number one pick. You only have to drop down one spot. [08:57] And you could just take Darren Peterson and just make sure he doesn't put creatine in his creation drinks and creatine in his green juices and just stays away from creatine. It took him a long time to come up with that excuse. You know what I mean? That was a good one. I was like, you know what? I tried out the creatine a little bit and it really screwed me up. Yeah. [09:16] Yeah, it's not for everybody. We've seen it happen in golf. Bing Griffin, he had too much creatine one tournament. It was losing his mind. So, I mean, it's happened before. We've seen it in sports. I recommended it to Kevin Wilds when I was trying it out. And now I think he's still doing it. I think he's all in on it. Well, maybe it works for him. But, you know, the innovation for Peterson was to wait. He waited enough time for, like, the stink of how his season played out to have to deliver the excuse six, seven weeks. We're all done with March Madness.

[09:46] thinking about kansas basketball anymore uh i have here is what was going on we knew that there was a true story somebody was going to give us the so i i admire uh the the innovation revelation yeah the one thing i will say nobody with the wizards are not calling anybody tate i mean maybe the wizards call the wizards are the wizards phone is sitting here yeah they're taking aj and there and you call them if you want to call the phone's right here you can call [10:16] I'll take the call. And you know, the funny thing is the threads. So from so many different sources, my phone's been buzzing relentlessly. And it's been all these congratulations. But everybody is wondering out loud about Utah because, you know, they made that big investment in DeBanta. And by they, I mean, Ryan Smith. [10:39] And BYU made an economic investment in the bands of being physically in at BYU by BYU with the idea that he might if the ball goes before the house. Why took him? They took him from Massachusetts. Yeah. And he went to prep school in Utah and BYU. And this has been a thing that's been going on. Right. I don't remember if it's four years or five years. [11:02] And it was always like, wow, if they could ever get AJ, they're taking him. They're really familiar with him, the whole thing. It's weird. It's not so weird. Somebody is this excited to go to Utah. We haven't had that a lot in the league in the last 50 years. Haven't been a lot of. [11:15] people panting to go to their house. But I sent you all the pics Utah has. So Utah has been building all this stuff.

[11:24] hoping to do a 125 cents in the dollar type of trade. They have a swap with the Lakers next year. [11:31] In 27, they had the best two of Minnesota, Cleveland, or Utah. [11:36] Um, [11:37] They have a swap with Cleveland in 28th. [11:40] They can do the best two of Cleveland, Utah, and Minnesota. [11:44] And I'm saying two different, two of the three, the top two. They have their own first. And then they have this really nice Phoenix first in 2031 house. [11:53] Devin Booker will be like 34 years old making $80 million. [11:57] On top of some other guys they have, [12:00] So my thing is, let's say they come to you and they give you two of those picks. They give you Sensabaugh. [12:07] And they give you number two just to move up one spot. And you take Darren Peterson. Like, are you sweating that? No, no. Two of those picks. I was wondering if the offer, if I was being too greedy, looking for something like Ace Bailey, the number two. And that's the other way it could go. So just Ace Bailey and number two to move up to one? I need one of those future firsts as well. [12:30] Ace Bailey looked pretty good. Tate, didn't Ace Bailey want to go there last year? Yeah, that was what he was angling. That's what a lot of people thought, that his agent was trying to get him to go there. Right. I mean, honestly, Ace Bailey and two for one is a lot. [12:43] Because I thought Ace looked good last year. I don't know if I would do that if I was Utah. My thing is, I would trade back just because... [12:49] We've been arguing about which of these four guys are going to be the best guy for four months. And I don't even know if we have an answer. Tate, where'd you land? Yeah, I mean, I do think that AJ is number one. I feel comfortable with AJ, right? He wants to be the number one pick. That's the number one test. Do you want to be the number one pick? AJ obviously wants to be the number one pick. Peterson has worked his way through the media with these exclusive interviews to put out that he also obviously is willing to be the number one pick. I thought the interviews at the draft, what an awkward TV experience that is at the lottery, by the way, with like everyone. Can we talk about that? Yeah, please.

[13:19] So you have a half hour. You have a half hour. You're ESPN. You have a half hour for the lottery. [13:25] And then the next game starts. You spend the first 15 minutes... [13:29] having awkward interviews with the people sitting there, showing all the representatives, and then doing the same ping pong ball video they show every year. [13:38] The lottery happens. [13:40] Four massive things happen in the lottery and they just throw it right to the game. And it's like, [13:45] What are you guys doing? [13:47] How could you have handled this worse? I would have had the lottery at three and then 15 minutes of discourse. Anyway, go on. So we both had AJ... [13:54] We both think AJ should be the first pick, but it's not like a Wemby situation where you wouldn't bet [14:00] your life, he's going to be the best player in 10 years from this draft. It could be any of these four guys, right? Yeah, I mean, I think you can talk yourself. I mean, I've seen boards that have Boozer at number one, right? That seems like he's the safest of the four picks, right? Hollinger had him one. Yeah, Hollinger had him one, which is, you know, I think it's a fair point because if you look at Boozer's record, right, he's won at every single level. He obviously was national player of the year this year. He liked the way that he carries himself. He is going to be a really good player at the next level. I think Caleb Wilson, obviously, is tantalizing. [14:30] style that he had there at the ambitious ambitious hair i think he cleans it up and i think he's going to be all right but i mean just the high flyer and sean kemp has been thrown out there kg has been thrown out there obviously mcgrady a little bit i also think i see a lot of people with caleb at the four i think he's going to end up being a wing i think he's going to end up being a three so i think he's one of those guys yeah i just think he has the athleticism to be out there maybe they slot him down with the four you know at some level but i think caleb's obviously in

[15:00] Carolina game in the fall. And I mean, he didn't even have a great night, but I mean, puts up 24 points with ease and you're just like, man, this guy is so smooth, so easy. And obviously the McDonald's All-American game, you saw a lot of people defer to him just because if he, you know, just the way he carries himself, he calls himself Michael Myers of basketball, right? Like I kind of like that, even though he's a little bit of a weirdo, I think that might be a good thing. We told him, we said he was the Kawhi of guards. So again, you can kind of argue the Kawhi of guards house. Yeah. Yeah. I could take the Kawhi of guards. [15:30] Michael Myers, he wasn't enough of a killer this season. I think AJ should be... [15:35] I think AJ should be first. [15:37] But I also feel like if you end up with Peterson and more stuff, that's a nice place to be. [15:42] And we've talked about this before when Tate and Kyle Manwur on, but... [15:47] The Peterson High School tape is out of control. [15:50] It's out of control. I mean, he looks like he's going to be Kobe Bryant. [15:53] when you watch this stuff. And I thought, see, Mike, he had a little too much weight this year. And we were talking, just felt like he could never get going this season, which of course makes you nervous to take them one. But, [16:04] It also feels like he could just be spectacular. It also feels like he didn't want to learn the college game. I mean, I know that's a little bit banal, but I just feel like it's such a different sport. It was just like, all right, I'll just skip this stage. I totally agree, Tate. What he showed us body language wise, attitude wise is my single goal is to not get hurt. I will do this thing that is a required step. I will fulfill the requirement. Present, present. He raises his hand. Are you here, Mr. Peterson?

[16:34] is here. He's present. And that's it. Get me the F out of here. I want to go be a pro basketball player. And here we are. [16:41] The VP of common sense would be a little nervous about the wizards taking a guy who's already had major cramping issues and questions about his demeanor and his body. You're talking about the old wizards. Gilbert Arenas. Those are the old wizards. That's not just wizards. That's old stuff. I don't know how. You're bringing up the past. We're in the present, baby. One of the things I love about DeBansa is there's just no way. He's already built a 28-year-old man. And I don't even know what his body is going to look like five, six years from now. [17:11] Thank you. [17:12] There's some interesting stuff with him. There's some defensive metrics that aren't great with him, Hollinger pointed to, for how athletic he is. [17:19] why isn't more stuff happening on that end? But I just, to me, he feels like the perfect kind of, he could play the three, play the four, [17:28] He's physical. He rebounds. He [17:31] I think he's really competitive. He really wanted to be the number one pick. I think that matters, House. [17:36] And if you drafted him and he actually could talk himself into going there, [17:40] Thank you. [17:41] I just feel like it's a set thing. You know what it is. [17:46] I don't know what the variance of it being bad, I don't really see. [17:49] with the band said no no no no that's why you're the ceiling with him feels like to me to me the highest ceiling just acknowledging that um caleb wilson is a more of an unknown quantity because the injury limited how much we got to see him against the the highest comp and especially in uh march madness where you really get a chance to see like okay these are stakes the guys are ramped up let's see it um

[18:12] So we were deprived of that with Wilson. But I feel like ceiling-wise, it's the whole thing. And he will definitely be cool with being here in Washington. [18:24] AJ Strong. [18:26] We've had some more luck lately with nickname, acronym, first names. [18:33] Dare I say... [18:34] If he comes in right away, and I think he's a 30 minutes a game guy next year, right? In the NBA. [18:41] Yeah, 100%. I think he could be like a 15-8, like a 16-8, something like that. Is that conceivable? Yeah, and if you look at the front court with Washington, that's a fun front court, like as far as size, you know what I mean? Like those three guys. So you put him and Saar and Anthony Davis with Trey Young. [18:57] And George. And how slow is Trey Johnson? Like, that's kind of a team. The floor... [19:03] is Vijay Edgecombe. I think what we got out of Edgecombe this year for a guy that showed up ready, and he took that team. He, more than any other player on that team, transformed what they were going to be capable of for this entire season. When we did the dumb October, what the hell is Philly going to be? We had no idea. We knew how excited they were about Edgecombe, but he showed up, and within two weeks, it's like, oh, look at this backcourt. They have Maxie and [19:33] And it resuscitated the fan base. And if we get anything, I think that's the floor... [19:39] for DeBansa. Now, maybe I'm high on my supply right now, baby, but

[19:45] We like SAR. Oh, yeah. There's... [19:47] Some of the metrics with him were pretty bad, but I liked him. His shot blocking stuff, that's what you want. Threes and shot blocking. [19:55] All right, we'll get back to Washington because number two is Utah. [19:59] Washington had a 52% chance to be in the top four and Utah was at 45. Won a crucial coin flip. [20:06] I don't know if you guys know, they had a coin flip with Sacramento. [20:09] to decide who was four and who was five and who got which set of things. And that ended up getting them the second pick. Um, [20:16] Danny Ainge, so I'm [20:18] Intimately familiar with. [20:19] as a guy that ran my team forever and just the way he thinks. [20:23] He always goes for superstar ceiling. [20:27] He's always, if he feels like somebody has a chance to be great, [20:32] He's going to take that guy and he's not going to care. [20:35] where it is in the draft. Like he was the one guy that would have taken Duran over Odin. It's just that that's just how he rolls. [20:41] Tate, is it possible... [20:44] He'll look at the high school stuff from Peterson. He'll throw away the Kansas here and be like, this guy's Kobe Bryant. We got to take him. [20:51] Yeah, I think there's a high chance just because, I mean, I think a lot of times the college tape is just like additive. It's not the definitive case. And I think a lot of times for fans, it is the definitive case because that's what most people see. They don't see all the stuff beforehand. They've seen these kids since they were 16 years old. And obviously, Danny Ainge was there the last time the number one pick was traded and Markel Fultz. And there was a lot of people that, you know, were a little upset in the moment that that happened. And then it turned out to be one of the best trades ever for Boston to be able to get Tatum there at number three. So he's been there. He's done that. He's seen that.

[21:21] It just sort of depends on how he interviews maybe with Ainge and if Ainge likes the fit. But I just think it could be tantalizing with that. It could be a boring interview. I'll tell you that much from what we see from Peterson. But maybe he likes that. You know, maybe I don't think I'll be talking about his favorite podcasts and books he's read lately. It's not going to be like Con Canipo, you know what I mean? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's another one. [21:43] Look. [21:44] he fits in with the team they have. Cause now they have Jaron Jackson, they have Mark and then, [21:49] They have Kessler who's coming back. Yep. [21:52] They got a great [21:54] Great year from their young point guard. What they're actually missing is a two guard and a score and like a closer. [22:00] Which that's what he played at Kansas. He played the two. Right. So House, maybe they're just happy. [22:07] Maybe this all, because there's a world where you just look at the board and you go, Washington, happy to take the Bansa. [22:12] Utah! [22:14] Super excited to take Darren Peterson. Memphis. [22:17] Couldn't be happier to add Cam Boozer, like the most Memphis pick ever. And then Chicago, like, sure, we'll take Caleb Wilson. And that's just how it goes. And Boozer is kind of a grown up. You know what I mean? Just feels like a guy that's not going to have any sort of issues. You can make him a franchise type guy. Cedric Coward fits in well with him. Great grind Grizzlies. Yeah, they're back. It works. [22:35] I could see that. You agree with that, Huss? I sure do, and especially Peterson's athleticism at the pro level, and Ace Bailey. There is something there in Utah that you could point to and say, let's go ahead and see if we can win some games. Well, I think that team, because that poor coach, Will Hardy. Yeah, Will Hardy. We haven't seen...

[23:00] him really get to cook. He only gets to cook every once in a while. He cooks through three quarters and then he has to turn the oven off for the last two years. He was going to be cooking meth if he had to coach that team for three more years. It was Breaking Bad. It really was. He was losing his mind probably. But I mean, they got lucky last year with Ace. [23:20] Ace tried to do that stare down and get them to go to Washington. They just stared him down like you're coming in. His agent video. One of the classic draft videos. [23:30] I don't think in the history of the franchise until... [23:33] until this draft. So Peterson... [23:36] I would assume, but I'm telling you, man, if Danny watches enough Caleb Wilson and is just like, this guy's... [23:41] This guy's the next Giannis. We're taking him. Like, they'll take him at two. He gives zero fucks. I know their process, like... [23:48] It's that there's never leaks with Danny cause it always takes him a while to figure out who he likes. [23:53] Also, his son's running a team, and obviously the owner is going to have a say. [23:58] There's a bunch of people involved, but Danny's going to be the Yoda of this situation. [24:03] I think from a fun NBA standpoint, the Bansa one and then Peterson go into Utah two is fun. [24:09] Boozer at three. [24:10] And then we don't think Memphis will trade that pick or anything. And then, [24:14] Chicago, just hilarious. They're going to actually end up with a fun team despite themselves. And it will go nowhere near the luxury tax, but they'll play with pace. [24:23] They have Taylor Jenkins went there. [24:26] And with Wilson, the only question I have, Tate, [24:29] There's no chance he drops to five, right?

[24:32] I just think that anything is possible with the Bulls. I could totally see the Bulls having Keaton Wogler. Because Wogler's from Illinois. Exactly. I mean, that's like not nothing. In their backyard, they talk themselves into Wogler. Great passing vision, all that sort of stuff. And then somehow Caleb Wilson falls to the Los Angeles Clippers and gets to work under Kawhi Leonard, a guy who I think as far as the hand size, I think is a little bit similar. And I think it would be a perfect kind of tutelage situation where he could learn under. [25:02] but it could be a good situation and a good spot for Caleb Wilson. But the Bulls, I mean, I know they just got a new, you know, kind of front office situation, so maybe. But at the end of the day, the ownership is the ownership, and they've, you know, done some things in the past that are head-scratching, and that could happen yet again there at number four. Or not done some things. Let me ask you guys this, and we'll have a chance to talk to Verno as this all plays out. Oh, yeah. Memphis strikes me as a team that might be more inclined to take a swing on Caleb Wilson rather than the tried-and-true, steady Cam Boos [25:32] Because, like, does Cam Boozer move the needle for Memphis? I mean, they have an interesting little nucleus. There is still yet whatever they resolve with Ja, whatever assets they get back. But they're still super in transition. They're not a team that's going to be looking to try and win, I don't think, 45 games next year, right? They don't have the roster for that. [25:52] So if Caleb fits, like, where Cedric Coward is, like, you're just building a really athletic kind of front court situation.

[26:02] Boozer dropping a four would be out of control. That's why I'm asking Tate. [26:07] He just feels like [26:09] I don't know what his ceiling is, whether he's ever going to make a first-team on the NBA or anything like that. And I'd probably like him a whiff less than others, but I still feel like [26:17] It's like a guaranteed... [26:19] 22 and 10. You know, he's always produced. I mean, I think that's the real thing with cam boozer where you almost talk yourself out of it, even though it's right there in front of you. And you're like, he's going to be an all-star, you know, he's going to be a guy that's in that conversation. So, um, I, I really, I think Memphis just plays it safe there, but I, I like what you're saying. How it's like high IQ transition type team, coward, Caleb Wilson, that could be a fun combo. I could, I wonder if Wilson could just single hit, they rejuvenate John Moran. [26:48] Um, we, [26:49] You look at Chicago, if Wilson falls to Chicago at four, [26:52] And for the people listening who haven't really followed this draft, [26:56] Boozer is like the steady... [26:58] 22 and 10 really knows how to play the game. He's just going to elevate wherever he is. [27:03] And Caleb Wilson is like the wild card who got hurt before March Madness. [27:08] all-time incredible college athlete like just nuts like he feels like he came out of like the fysalaam jam era [27:14] And there's like, [27:16] pieces of Sean Kemp, [27:18] Tate mentioned Tracy McGrady a little bit. He doesn't have the three-point shot yet. [27:22] There's feels like there could be a little, little Chet maybe defensively, if he could ever figure out that side of it as like a, a four. I know the defensive stats weren't awesome for him, but, but I'm looking at Chicago and,

[27:35] With Giddy? [27:36] And Kobe White, [27:37] And I had to soon move. [27:39] Oh, no, they don't have two of those three guys. [27:44] I got excited for a second. I'm like, wait a second. What is going on? Now they don't have those guys. Think about that, though. Matas and Caleb. Yeah, Boozellis and Caleb. Who's not getting just his minutes yanked around by Billy Donovan anymore. All right, we're going to take a break. [27:58] And we're going to come back and talk about the number five pick, which became one of the most fascinating things that has happened in the recent history of the lottery after this. [28:07] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. [28:10] It's been a wild playoff run. Not over yet. Fando wants to bring you closer. [28:13] to the court to make all of that action. [28:16] come to life for you. [28:18] the basketball fan. Fandle, the best place to bet the team's players' plays during NBA postseason, build the same-game parlay for a shot at a bigger, [28:26] pad or [28:27] Try live betting. [28:29] and jump into the action. [28:31] right after tip-off, whatever you want. That's the whole point of live betting. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app. [28:37] Right now. [28:38] And play your game. [28:39] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. [28:50] This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. [28:53] You know what my favorite thing about the playoffs is? [28:56] I like... [28:57] And it's usually maybe a game four, might even be a game five. Game seven, everyone's nervous. There's a different level of energy. But game four, game five.

[29:06] For one of the two teams, there's this realization with like five minutes left in the fourth quarter. It's like, uh-oh. [29:14] Our fate is suddenly... [29:16] in real flux right now. Who's stepping up? What are we going to do? Let's calm down. [29:21] Can we rise to the moment or are we going to shrink from it? It's as great as opening up [29:26] of Michelob Ultra, a nice cold one, crisp, refreshing, the ultimate prize. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, [29:37] custom merch, [29:38] And more. [29:39] You could be at one of those games when the pressure rises. Miklob Ultra, superior is worth playing for. [29:46] Enter now at Michelob Ultra. [29:48] dot com slash. [29:50] Courtside. [29:51] Michelob Ultra Quartzide 2526, no purchase necessary, open to U.S. Residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2025, ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods, see official rules at MichelobUltra.com slash Quartzide. [30:05] for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. [30:10] Clippers make this crazy trade for... [30:12] with Zubats to the Pacers. And it's top five protected, or top four protected. [30:18] And at that point, it looks like the Pacers are going to be the worst team in the league. [30:22] Cool. There's a second first round pick of that. Oh, one Joe House is back. We're back. All right. [30:27] Um, [30:29] Indy goes 4-21 in their last 25. [30:33] The Wizards go 1-24. And he lost 16 straight and somehow didn't end up with the first spot.

[30:39] Falls back three spots, gets jumped. [30:42] loses the pick. [30:43] for, [30:44] for Zubats. And this fifth pick is no joke, Tate, because we move with the fifth pick. There's the secondary guys. Wagler, we mentioned. Acuff, who might be next Kyrie for all we know. Burries is in there. People love Flemings. This is like a potential all-NBA someday guard. [31:03] And Indy just doesn't have the pick now because they traded for Zubat's [31:08] just a staggering... [31:10] Kicking the balls. [31:12] an all-timer yeah it's an all-timer can you put your conspiracy hat on here bill and talk about this because obviously i don't think by the hat i don't there's no conspiracy right i mean i'm just saying aba wise right the pacers uh do you say do you think there's a little bit of like they'll never let the pacers get what they deserve because they're an aba team that's where i'm going here i'm just like i never even thought of that they've never won the lottery yeah i like that conspiracy [31:42] the protection is the thing they basically made it seem like hey there's four players we love in this draft but that's not how you can think because if you end up with the fifth pick and you have to give it away [31:54] Nobody in the planet would trade Zubats for the fifth pick in this draft. [31:59] I don't think they would trade him for the 6th, 7th, or 8th picks. Honestly. [32:02] But yeah, they took this chance with the percentages, Tate. [32:05] And what happens? They get screwed and now they have no pick. And for the Clippers, this is a miracle. Yeah, it's amazing. Literally a miracle. Yeah, it's amazing. And obviously there's a lot of like, you know, I think this is Pablo Torres nightmare. Shout out to Pablo. This is he did not want to see this. The Clippers getting some sort of, you know, pat on the mat. Yeah, they got something. It's basically their number one pick. Right. I mean, they were able to they knew what it was. OK, House has got video again. That's good. Yeah. So that happens.

[32:35] Pacers kind of put out a tweet to all the fans yeah Kevin Pritchard was just like I'm so sorry that this happened uh we thought that we had good juju on our side turns out we didn't that's never good when you see that as a fan of the Pacers and uh you know we talked about like that would be the perfect spot for like a Peterson or Caleb Wilson or a Boozer one of these guys to kind of slot into this Pacers team that can make a real run as a title contender and now we're talking about the Clippers and and them being able to get the fifth pick and then I mean you could talk [33:05] A big swing and a nice pickup for Ballmer and the Clippers. [33:09] So it's funny. [33:11] I think they would take Waggler because he's 6'6". Yeah. Big guard. House, I love Acuff, obviously. [33:19] But you have Darius Garland already, and I think they really like Garland. He had some real juice when he showed up. [33:25] Um, [33:26] that if you loved ACOV, [33:29] I think you'd have to trade Garland, which would get a little complicated. But don't you think Wagler could play with Garland? It's not ideal, but. [33:35] He can play on or off the ball, and he's 6'6", has some size. Has the shooting. I don't know. [33:41] Yeah, I feel like he could do that, right? [33:44] Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think it fits as far as like those two guys being able to play together. It's not redundant at any point. And, you know, there's a team that's sitting there at number seven that I know that loves Acuff and probably would be willing to trade up potentially if you feel good about them wanting them so bad to get there at number five. And maybe you get some more. The Kings really want Acuff. I think that's pretty much a known entity at this point. So if they're willing to move up, that could be something there where you could get even more assets from a franchise that's a little bit desperate.

[34:14] But I really like Wogler. The only time that we saw Wogler struggle is when Yax Olindeborg pretty much locked him up on defense. [34:20] five years older than him. So, I mean, I think there's going to be some growing pains, but he'll get there eventually. [34:24] Pass. [34:25] I had this in my notes with Sacramento. If you're the Clippers, you can just move back two spots and take Burry's seven. [34:33] And... [34:34] Also, you get to trade with Sacramento, which has been one of the most foolproof ways to get better over the last 40 years and pick up a future pick from them. [34:43] I would think about that because Burris, as you guys know, I love Burris. But if you're staying at five, I think Wagner has to be the pick. [34:52] Both of those are tremendous options for the Clippers. And it is proof positive. [34:58] that karma... [35:00] Is on the Clippers side. Even in the face. Oh. [35:05] Even in the face of all of the great circumvention, allegation, navigation, somehow or another, the karma landed in a certain way. [35:17] I suspect that the league is going to land in the same place, which is we are going to get on Clippers basketball. [35:25] Because the worst case scenario here is they decide horrible things happen and they just wipe the – we lost house again. They just wipe the Quipper's pick away, the number five pick. [35:38] And that's that. [35:40] I had a... [35:42] I had a doozy for you guys. Well, first of all,

[35:45] The Clips turned Zubats, who I didn't even think was playing that well this year, and Harden, who didn't want to be there anymore, into Garland and the fifth pick in this draft. [35:54] So that's just amazing. And math, right? [35:56] Yeah, and Matherin if they end up resigning him. Yeah, that's true. [36:00] They have two paths now because they could... [36:02] potentially trade kawaii and trade garland and just blow it up and try to rebuild around young guys [36:09] They could also swing the other way and make a Giannis play here. [36:12] Hmm. [36:13] Because they're going to have some cap space. They have the fifth pick, which I think is attractive. And there might be a way to send that and... [36:21] make that the focal point of some sort of trade. [36:24] and take Giannis' thing on and try to keep Kawhi and Garland and build around those three. Does that excite you at all? Yeah, it excites me. I just want Giannis to be saved. I want Giannis to go somewhere. You were talking with Nick Wright about the Hawks and just, you know, if they get that top four pick and trying to package away where Jalen ended up going to Atlanta and maybe, you know, Giannis ends up going to Boston. I thought that was a tasty idea that I thought that, you know, I started putting that together in my brain. I'm like, that makes sense. It's kind of a win-win for everybody. This is obviously played out a little bit differently here. But if [36:54] you know shout out to Mallory Eden sitting there you know at the number 10 pick it just looked like [36:58] It was like Warriors, Bucs, some of those teams on the back end that maybe they slot in and were able to – Yeah, none of them hit this year. None of them hit. So, I mean, this is a way for them to be able to get something for the future that gives them a little bit of optimism. And it also saves Giannis because I'm tired of seeing Giannis be wasted. After 2021, I thought we were going to have like, wow, Giannis could end up being the greatest power forward ever. And it has really derailed over the past three seasons.

[37:28] Shout out to Doc Rivers. I think he tried his best to make things happen. But great BS podcast. Glad he's back on the pod. We need him here. It all worked out. He's back where he belongs on the pod every once in a while. And if Giannis goes to the Clippers, that's great for the league, too. [37:42] Giannis going to the Clippers and being in Los Angeles with Kawhi, who's on a similar window of, I think... [37:49] how many more years is he going to have with Garland? And they could patch around. They've been really good at building... [37:54] veterans around there. You know, one of the outcomes of today was [37:58] It feels like it really improved the Celtics chances to get Giannis, if that's what... [38:03] they want to do because you saw [38:04] Atlanta, [38:06] who ended up in the eighth spot. But that was a team that if they moved into the top four, I feel like they would have been in play for Giannis potentially. [38:12] Golden State was another one. [38:14] If Milwaukee had gotten... [38:16] up there with Atlanta and somehow both ended up in the top four. Maybe they keep you honest at that point. Um, but none of that stuff happened. So I, I would say the, [38:25] Celtics are probably... [38:27] Probably the favorite at this point to get Giannis, unless Dallas... [38:31] got aggressive, but I don't really know what the other team would be. [38:34] Can you think of any? Charlotte, no, right? No, I just don't think Giannis is going to be happy there. And then the Heat is basically just like Milwaukee South. They don't have enough. Yeah, you just trade spots with them at that point. I don't think that really works out. And as far as like the narrative of Giannis' career, [38:50] You get Boston behind you. You kind of get the media, the change. You know what I mean? Like, you could really... [38:55] you can really change the whole conversation about who you are as a player. Because the numbers tell a great story about Giannis, you know what I mean? And what he was able to do in 2021. You add in two more titles, and you do it in Boston, and you're kind of like the 1A in Jason Tatum coming off injuries, kind of like, I wouldn't say 1B, but let's just say Giannis ends up being the guy there. I just think it's a great story for a narrative purpose. And I do think Giannis, I know he turned his nose up to being the face of the league, and I think that was a bad move in general.

[39:25] salvage everything as far as like the Giannis story. [39:29] Yeah, he's in that with a KG 2007 spot, only he has the title. [39:33] but wants this next act and it's time to lead the team he's on. [39:38] Still, maybe Golden State would be the other one. I mean, Golden State's at 11%. [39:42] Mm-hmm. [39:43] And they have the Butler expiring, but unless they just gave the rest of their drafts in a way to get him, I don't know. [39:50] how that excites Milwaukee. Milwaukee's going to want [39:52] something back yeah so whether jimmy jay marquette guy goes back to milwaukee i know but he's hurt yeah you know there's no there's no real sell there and if you get jaylen back you're getting a a guy who's going to be second team on vay but you're putting him on a bad team maybe he'd like that i don't even know or he's gonna i don't know what he likes after yeah who knows he's all over the place he had his favorite year of his career but there were different reasons for it [40:15] Can you walk us through 5, 6, 7 with Wogler and Acuff and Flemings and Burris? And then it gets a little weird. And then somehow Phyland has just gotten... [40:25] push back when I feel like maybe he could be the guy that jumps. In that whole order, is there anybody you think is in the wrong spot? Yeah, it's a cluster of guards. And Mikel Brown Jr. was sort of the guy that I thought was the guy at number five going into the season. He had his own version of a Darren Peterson situation where he had the back spasms and Louisville fans and kind of the people around the team were a little upset about him not being able to play. And there was some kind of back channeling that was happening there. But I still think Mikel Brown

[40:55] one of those guys that ends up being a steal if you get them at 8 9 10 range let's say the hawks get them at eight i think that's a really nice pickup for them i like wogler at five um i think darius acoff is the most explosive and like the guy that could really become a superstar i mean you even saw when they did the graphic on espn the top four picks they cut out kayla wilson and put ac up i couldn't believe that right was that the jay billis list or that wasn't the espn list that was just the jay billis only list i think it was a billis list and that's why they did that but [41:25] knowing Caleb a little bit I do think that Caleb is almost better when he's disrespected like if Caleb were to go number one I would actually be concerned but can't go in number four number five I feel like that's the best case scenario for his career because he kind of he's like at the MJ thing where he like needs uh gripes with people to kind of fire himself up so um I think that Acuff going at five would be great Burry's is a little bit older but just kind of feels like a surefire guard that you can trust even off ball at times if you need him to be there [41:55] Yeah, he's a two, and I think he's obviously showed a lot at Arizona last year and a really, really good scorer and player. Phylon's an electric scorer. But honestly, of that group, I feel like Mikel Brown Jr. is the guy to me that... [42:09] gets me excited. You know what I mean? That could end up being a guard. Yeah, because on some lists, he's in double figures. Yeah. In some of the mock drafts. I'm kind of shocked. I mean, I know Amit fell for a myriad of reasons. I know Mikkel Brown fell for some of the stuff I mentioned with the injuries. But if you've watched Mikkel Brown when he's on, he is really, really good. And he's got the size. Who would you compare him to? That's a good question. I'm trying to think. I mean, he's bigger. That's the other part. I think

[42:39] I mean, Drew Holiday, maybe a little bit, potentially, you know, a Nimhar. Do you think he's that kind of defensive player? I think he could get there. I think he's offensively great. I just think that Mikel Brown Jr. has a lot of upside. And I just think that the more I see him fall, the more I'm just like, if you're in the 8 to 12 range, because I think 12 is the line. Like, when things go bad, is it 12? I think that's when you're like, you know, in OKC getting 12, I'm fascinated to see, like, do they just take a swing on a Bennett Sturz? Do they take acquaintance? [43:09] who is that player that the thunder go for? We're all like, Oh, of course they take Steinbach from Washington and he turns into debt left shrimp 2.0, you know what I mean? Like who, who is the play there at 12? But as far as that clutter of guards, I think they all have different kinds of traits that you could fall in love with. But, uh, I I'm like a Wogler, a cup first. And then from there, you know, you can kind of pick which one you fancy, but Mikel Brown, I, uh, [43:32] I'm excited to see what he looks like. [43:34] So Acuff, if he goes to Brooklyn at six... [43:36] Yeah. [43:37] Mm-hmm. [43:39] The Kings will be sick. [43:40] Wow. [43:41] they don't have their 27, uh, [43:44] Phoenix... [43:45] Phoenix or Houston? [43:47] One of them can switch. Houston can switch with them. So, [43:51] They kind of have to be good next year, right? Acuff is an investment in somebody that you're hoping... [43:56] you know, can be pretty special. Who knows if he's, it's pretty rare for a point guard to come into the league and be, [44:02] Awesome right away. [44:03] And I, you know, there's, there's some feeling and some feedback about the Nets, [44:08] that they might want to say, fuck it.

[44:10] we're tired of [44:13] the latter just didn't work out for us two years in a row. Right. We tried to, [44:17] tried to game this system twice. Each time we got screwed, let's just trade the pick for a star. [44:22] I'm going to read you some names. Mm-hmm. [44:25] uh sadly i i think house might be dead i'm not sure what happened i'm honestly they're getting it fixed yeah they're getting it fixed a part of my mind is concerned about house right now i think he's on too much of a high i think maybe maybe the bloody marys hit maybe put something in his bloody marys and the drug police came um [44:45] Paolo Bancaro for the six pick. [44:48] That feels like a no for Orlando. I'm just giving you some guys. [44:53] I think it's a no, but I mean, Paolo would say yes. Right. Well, but I guess for Orlando, it's like we're way over the tax. We get to reboot a little bit. That's a no. I'm just listing names. Don't get mad at me, people watching. [45:07] Jalen Williams on OKC. Mm hmm. [45:10] which would allow OKC to get out of all this money stuff that they have coming. They could grab [45:16] you know, somebody awesome at six, [45:19] I don't think they would trade Jalen Williams for six. If we're moving to the top three, that becomes a different story. [45:25] But six now, crossing him off. [45:28] Mobley. [45:30] Gets a little more interesting. [45:32] Especially if Cleveland gets bounced in five and we've seen Mobley kind of level off and just be an 18-9 guy. [45:39] And Cleveland's way over the tax. And could they just reset this? You let Harden go.

[45:44] Maybe you trade Mitchell and this is just a complete reset. [45:48] Um, Jamal Murray at 15 was the most fun one. [45:53] where you just put Acuff on Denver and you put Jamal Murray on Brooklyn, you have a vet. [45:57] Giannis has to be mentioned. I don't know why he would go to Brooklyn if nobody was there. [46:02] And then the only other one that's like Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brown. I don't see how that makes sense for Brooklyn. [46:08] Yeah, I the Palo one is the one that got my attention the most. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Just because I mean, the Palo thing just is fascinating. I know they got to figure out the coach. I mean, you got the Wagner situation. I know Orlando would be sick to hear that. But I I'm just fascinated by him because he can turn it on. And when he does turn it on, you're like, oh, yeah, there he is. There's the franchise, you know, top 10 potential player. And then there's times where he's a little bit off. And I don't know. He's a fascinating situation. [46:38] or the Clippers, as we mentioned, it just feels like, you know, Will Smith and Fresh Prince when he's in the room by himself. You know, it's like how many of those situations can we send Giannis into? Right. I would feel bad for him if that were to happen again. And how many years does he have left? Yeah, right. Like if you're trading for him, what are you actually getting back? [46:56] Sacramento at seven. I think they just take whatever point guards left. They don't have a point guard. I think they're going to try to trade up. I think they're going to try to get the five and get a cuff. I really do. [47:07] Wow. [47:08] I mean, that would be a godsend for the Clippers. You end up with this weird trade you made. [47:13] Somehow you get the fifth pick. You move backwards to get seven for Burris, who you probably would have wanted anyway.

[47:19] And then you get more assets and you trade it with Sacramento. There's no way that doesn't work. Atlanta is another one that I think could trade up if they got excited about [47:27] a point guard. [47:28] um they're also a team jalen's from atlanta and that that has to be mentioned [47:33] If this was straight up Jalen, Dyson Daniels, and a contract, and the eighth pick, whatever that is. [47:40] How much do you think that's possible to happen at this point with Jalen Brown? I mean, because you guys are talking about it. I mean, he is so smart and cerebral. And I do feel like some of this stuff is targeted and pointed on purpose. Has he kind of sent the message himself that he's like, I would be interested in something like that? Because otherwise... [47:58] Well, you've been following sports long enough now. [48:02] He's doing the thing where there's just mixed signals anywhere, and it's hard to tell whether he just wants everybody to be talking about him or whether he actually wants to leave or whether he actually wants to stay. [48:13] And there's [48:14] There's kind of... [48:15] there's no way you're just trying to [48:18] Grab it all over the map trying to see what's happening and you have no idea. [48:21] Yeah. And I honestly don't know. Like somebody asked me for percentages of if I thought Jalen was going to be in the Celtics next year. And I was like, I don't know, 50-50? [48:29] That's crazy. It feels like a coin flip. He also won a finals. Like, it'd be one thing if he, you know, when they won the championship, he did not win conference finals MVP and finals MVP. I mean, he got those. [48:40] I thought that would be the end of the whole thing. I'm very confused by it. Also, I'm so sad that we didn't get the Nick Celtics series after watching what the Sixers showed up. I know. I mean, my God. Jesus Christ. We haven't even talked about that. No. Well, quickly in the latter. Atlanta's eight. Dallas is nine. Dallas is nine.

[48:59] And they have Kyrie coming back. And Burris would be the dream Dallas guy here, right? Yep. [49:04] But I'm not positive he's going to get all the way to nine. But that's like, oh, my God, what a home run putting him next to Flagg. [49:11] There's a really fun version of how this lot... The only problem is I can't figure out what Atlanta would take. I assume... [49:16] At eight, they would take a point guard. Milwaukee's just taking whoever the highest ceiling guy is left because they're [49:22] Going to be in a rebuild at 10. And then can you walk me through Yaxo at Golden State at number 11? Because that just seems like everyone's just going to pencil him in there. Can he go higher than that? [49:32] He's going to be 24. Yeah, I know Kyle Mann had him, I think, eight or seven or eight on his big board. And Yaxel is one of those guys where he is older, which makes sense for Golden State, right? It's a team that is obviously a very old team. I know Draymond just had that moment with Barkley talking about, and Barkley's like, old teams don't win anymore. So, you know, it's a young man's game. But I think Yaxel, my only issue with him going to Golden State is, yes, he is older, but, like, the maturity is not older. Like, his maturation does not match the age. [50:02] with Draymond, Michigan State guy. Kerr just re-signed the extension. It's sort of running it back. You don't want to recreate a whole situation and a whole problem again where Steve Kerr is like, where am I in the twilight zone? Why is this happening again? But it does make sense on paper. Defender, kind of nice insurance on the wing as Jimmy is rehabbing and getting back, and he could be a nice piece for them. That could be, I mean, he doesn't have to be a scorer by any means, but I think defensively he's a nice cog in the machine. But I still would be a little concerned about the maturation.

[50:32] That would be the thing where the age seems like it matches, but I'm not sure that the way that he acts like. [50:39] Well, the one that I think, so Mara, the center of, [50:43] is anywhere from like eight to 15. That could be an OKC move too. Well, that's what, so I had him written down tentatively for OKC at 12. But I also think there's a world where they try to trade up in the top three, which I talked about Thursday. And some people are saying, because I had AJ Mitchell and, [51:00] 12 for the three. [51:02] And, and some of the feedback I was getting was AJ Mitchell's contract is so good. [51:07] Why would they trade him? Why wouldn't they look at Jalen Williams instead? [51:12] And, and, [51:13] Because he's going to be at like 45, 48, 50. And they've proven that they can be running at all cylinders, whether he's there or not. [51:22] And I was wondering, could they trade... [51:25] Jalen Williams to Memphis for KCP in the three. [51:29] that feels like a Presti kind of move, right? If you're in Memphis, they're like, holy shit, we have Jalen Williams and Cedric Coward now. And if you're OKC, you're basically resetting the clock and you're getting some sort of, you're getting Boozer, Caleb Wilson, you're getting one of those guys, maybe even Peterson. Yeah, they know they have to break it up at some point. And also it looks like it works without J-Dub, which is crazy. And AJ has been great so far. And it's also people saying he looked like a top 50 player. So yeah, I mean, I think Presti will be working the lines. I think that's a good call. [51:59] 12 to me is where the line is to see because like Daylon Swain's in that range. Di Mara's in that range. We also didn't mention Kingston Flemings. I forgot to kind of mention in the cluster of guards. I do think Kingston Flemings is pretty fascinating too.

[52:12] Yeah, I don't know what to make of him. [52:14] And from what the rankings are, it seems like a lot of people, because we've seen a little like Fears. I know he's better than Fears last year, but same kind of thing, like just a young athletic [52:25] Fast guard. What is he? [52:27] where we had, it felt like a big, a little more of a sampler size with Wagler and Acuff. Yeah. But I know Fleming's, at one point, Fleming's was the, [52:35] It was number five and everything. This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [52:52] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [52:56] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [52:58] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. [53:07] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [53:09] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [53:16] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [53:21] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [53:27] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs store-wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. [53:41] Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market.

[53:47] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. [54:15] Last thing I want to mention on the lottery. [54:19] Miami's at 13. [54:21] And if you factor in two teams usually do something weird. [54:25] Right. [54:27] Odds are they're going to get Phylon or [54:29] somebody good and it just it they it always happens [54:33] Thank you. [54:33] Cron Butler that year. [54:35] They got Tyler Hero that year. They got Bam that year. They're always lingering from... [54:40] in this early teens range, a couple people screw up, and all of a sudden, somebody awesome. And as you know, I don't like Miami. What about like Native Mint there? [54:50] It seems like he's dropping. He is dropping, but I just don't think there is the tools that are there. Like, I'm not completely out on Native Mint. I know that every time I see a new board, it's like Native Mint's down to like 18, 20 range. But there were talks last year going into the season where Native Mint was going to be in the top four. He was going to be, you know, instead of Caleb Wilson, it was Native Mint, you know? So I still think there's maybe a team that talks themselves into taking him in that 14, you know, 13 to 15 range. [55:16] All right, so I'm putting you on the spot.

[55:18] the best player from this draft will be [55:21] 10 years from now. [55:22] People are throwing this clip back in your face. [55:25] I don't want to say it because I don't want it to get thrown back in his face, but I'm going to say it because why not? Caleb Wilson. [55:32] That's not just a North Carolina thing. No. I mean, I honestly... [55:37] I could take the blinders off and I could just say to myself, my God, this guy is incredible. [55:43] So, I mean, AJ, Caleb, Bruno. Yeah. [55:49] Tate just said he thought Caleb Wilson was going to be the best guy from this lottery in 10 years. [55:55] Chris Vernon is here, by the way, host of The Mismatch. Future Memphis Grizzly Chris Vernon. [56:00] Winner of the third pick in the NBA draft. And I can't wait to hear who you want them to take. [56:06] Oh, listen, this Boozer Wilson debate is going to feed families. My family for the next month and a half. [56:14] This is going to be great because I think the expectation is that right. The Banser will go one. Peterson will go two because they don't need a four in Utah. And so the Grizzlies, they're sitting at three. That's going to be the debate. [56:36] Caleb Wilson. The sure thing or [56:39] Like what Tate says, the guy with the ceiling guy. Yeah, right. The ceiling guy. [56:44] Well, so who... [56:45] What's dive into the psyche of Memphis and the grit and grind?

[56:50] grizzlies that was the most beloved memphis team of all time who is more memphis of those two guys [56:56] I mean, I will say that [56:58] Wilson is... [57:00] Wilson is... [57:03] There's two ways to go look at it, right? Because I don't think people would necessarily think Marc Gasol is... [57:09] But Marc Gasol is like, [57:10] totally embodied memphis now he did go to high school there he had an awareness of the city prior to but he is a serious doesn't take any crap get the job done right like he doesn't go about it in some kind of flashy way so i think that could be viewed as blue collar um certainly wilson has got the whole like [57:33] I... [57:34] have this crazy motor. [57:36] That kind of. So I think, honestly, I think both of them can fit in terms of, like, the city, right? [57:43] Um, Wilson's the kind of guy that like, well, it'll be every kid's favorite player. He'll be the one smiling. Like he's got he's got like a personality, whereas. [57:55] Boozer is obviously much more businesslike. But what fans respect is guys that, especially in a blue-collar town like Memphis, [58:05] they just respect guys that give an honest effort every single night. And I think that both of them, you're getting both of that. Yeah. Both, both of them do that, right? They'd go about it in different ways. Certainly Wilson's flashier, but, [58:17] You could be playing against anybody and Boozer is still like Boozer doesn't half ass it against anybody. And so it's just the idea that you like,

[58:26] bring your lunch pail to work and you give an honest effort every night. [58:30] All right, Tate, give us your last thoughts because Double House is going to come back into the Zoom. It feels like we've fixed the special effects. House doubled during the podcast. All of a sudden, he was in two feeds. Yeah, he had two Zooms open. It was a disaster. So give us your Memphis take before we go. Who do you want them to take, Tate? [58:51] I think they should take Caleb Wilson because I think Cedric Coward and Caleb Wilson is a fun combination. Also, like John Morant, the high-flying John Morant. Oh, my God. That's a league pass team. Yeah. Like, you get a perfect—you get dunk highlights galore. You got two high IQ guys with Cedric Coward. I think that's great. It would be fun. Hold on. Didn't Boozer play in Chicago, the dad? Yeah. [59:11] I have a vague memory of him ending up there and it wasn't great. [59:17] Let's pause on the whole John Moran flying around dunking. I'm saying it back in the day. [59:24] We can restart the clock on a different guy. Let's have some fun. I got to tell you, Bill. [59:31] in absolute stunned disbelief that Tate prefers the Carolina guy to the Duke guy. This is crazy. I know. I have no disrespect towards – I like both guys. What are the chances? I like both guys. I think it's a win-win, Verno. Tate will call it like it is, but if it's a UNC guy that he loves, he's going to ride for that UNC guy. If he played Georgia, I would say the same thing. I'll say that. Tate, we'll see you on Ringer Tailgate this week. We're letting you go. Thanks for hanging on, especially with the traumatic house disappearance. I'm glad we were able to go through that together. I'm worried about him. I hope he gets in.

[1:00:01] Thanks, guys. Good to see you, Verna. Good to see you. Bye, Tate. Good to see you, Tate. [1:00:03] How drunk is he? How drunk is House? House was fairly coherent. What? Yeah, he's popping back on right now. There is no chance if Memphis would have popped up one, I'm on this thing. Did you feel like you just wanted to get in the four? Or were you like... [1:00:21] Yes. [1:00:21] Yeah, because that's how I think with this draft, you just want to be in the fourth. [1:00:25] It was just, you know, whenever you go through miserable, punted seasons, you're [1:00:31] You just want the... [1:00:33] And to justify the means. [1:00:35] And so... [1:00:36] Being in the top four. [1:00:38] meant that it was worth it. [1:00:41] And, you know, like I'll give you, for instance, the very end of the season, and this is the worst thing to go through, is when you're playing games where it's like, who wants to lose more? But you guys even talked about it, I recall, there was a game that was coming up with Memphis versus Dallas. And people were like, this thing should be on league pass. Right. Right. [1:01:01] And Memphis was better at the end of the season at losing on purpose. [1:01:06] Well, now you look up at the end. Dallas is picking nine. [1:01:09] And Memphis is picking three. They have the same record. [1:01:12] They had the exact same record. [1:01:14] at that game. [1:01:15] And now that is how that's how that's how sometimes this can fall. And so if you're if you're a Dallas fan, I think you're looking at it and go, well, what's the point of that? [1:01:24] We're picking nine, right? We had that the Durant year. Yeah. The worst team, terrible. And then we fell to five. We fell to the drift group.

[1:01:33] Jeff Green pick. It was [1:01:35] It was devastating. Oh, Bill, I hosted a bar show. [1:01:39] filled with Memphis Grizzlies fans on ESPN. That's right. You had the Mike Conley. Then you got Mike Conley. On ESPN. We had one. [1:01:50] Huge blow-up doll of Greg Oden in a Memphis uniform and one huge blow-up doll of Durant. [1:01:58] And oh, my God, the amount of alcohol that was consumed that night after it popped up for. [1:02:04] And the radio broadcaster for the Grizzlies got on the stage and he's like, [1:02:08] Chris Bosh was drafted number four and everybody was like, Boo! [1:02:14] House, congratulations! Boo! Congrats to you, baby! [1:02:19] We fell to five that year and it was like, are they going to take Jeff Green or Yee-Zhin Lan? And I was like, shoot me. Where's the bar? The chairman. The chairman. [1:02:29] verno who are you gonna take you're gonna take a three oh i just all right before you came on with tate was on i was saying like i got six weeks of cam boozer caleb wilson debate this is gonna be great this is gonna be great because they're look i love both of them i don't think there there's not like a wrong choice and that's why that's why everybody is euphoric because if you were able to get in the top four [1:02:55] You're not making the wrong choice. That's how it feels, at least today. [1:02:59] I felt that way as the lottery happened this afternoon. I was like, as long as we get in top four, I'm cool. I'll take any of them.

[1:03:07] I asked Tate before you guys came on. [1:03:10] if OKC offered... [1:03:12] Jalen Williams. [1:03:14] to Memphis for the third pick. [1:03:16] and took back the Caldwell Pope expiring, would you consider it? [1:03:20] I don't think they would. [1:03:22] Because I think what's happening now. Wow. He was, what was he, second or third team on the NBA last year? Yeah, yeah, he was. Like 23? Here's what I tell you. But he's already signed his contract, Bill. [1:03:32] One of the things we are learning is that I think this is all evolving where you're going to have to have major contributors on rookie contracts and probably multiple major contributors on rookie contracts. Well, that was like the Celtics with Joe Missoula in the playoffs when guys like Hugo and oh, no, he didn't play them. But technically, I agree with you. No, I mean, that is what's going to happen. [1:04:02] stars, right? So [1:04:05] Desmond Bain signs a Max and Franz Wagner gets his under 80 million. And so then you've got when because that's the only way you're going to keep these guys is by paying them. But there's only so many that actually probably move the needle enough. And then if you accumulate a couple of them now. [1:04:25] That's got to be good enough, right? Like, and you're up against it. And so I do think that, [1:04:30] The value of the value now more than ever is getting these guys that are can contribute immediately because now you get them for four years and you've got a good enough. You're able to build out. You think about even what I just went through with the Grizzlies.

[1:04:48] Yeah. The best team was when those guys were on their rookie deals. [1:04:52] That's when you were able to have [1:04:54] Tyus Jones and DeAnthony Melton and Kyle Anderson and Brandon Clark. And like your bench was really good too. But I think kind of the only way you can have like, [1:05:05] You're either going to overpay a bunch of starters, right? And or... [1:05:10] You're going to have these guys on rookie deals. I think the best teams are going to be young. I do. [1:05:14] Well, that's why the Celtics are in such an interesting spot with Jalen here. If they can try to trade... [1:05:20] That would be one of the largest, especially with the way that Tate and I talked about how the draft broke. [1:05:25] where you have like Brooklyn at six is like, well, we don't want to suck again. Can we get a star for this pick or a lane at eight? [1:05:31] And could the Celtics end up [1:05:33] If Jalen does want to leave or they decide maybe it's time, is that the kind of trade if Giannis isn't sitting there? [1:05:40] trying to get a young guy back on a cheaper thing and then try to spend the money elsewhere. [1:05:47] Is the way you agree with that house or would you rather keep Jalen and make a run at it? [1:05:51] I think you're not that far away if you have both Tatum and Brown. And we kind of have a good track record of that based on the test that they've had. Unless Jalen wants his own team, that's where the problem would... [1:06:03] At some point, somebody needs to sit down with him and get to the bottom of this so that we're not dealing with this nonsense, 15-year-old drama silliness, the twitch and whatever. Can that person not be Tracy McGrady? [1:06:16] oh i that's that was did you see that last time i was so happy what was that i watched it afterwards i didn't actually talk to jaylen i just saw i noticed uh the body language and i was also down three one and do it and i know how frustrated that what are you saying also jaylen just said this was the best year of his career what so his body language was bad that was a mess man they should have rehearsed that one better we know you talked to jaylen brown it's fine just

[1:06:46] I want to say, though, to Verno's point, that here in Washington, the defense that the decision makers offer up for why they traded Denny Avdia was because of wanting a core group of guys all between ages 19 and 22 that are basically on the same contract trajectory and let them all come together at the same time. [1:07:16] is especially valuable for the Washington situation because now you have [1:07:20] four or five guys that are all in that same class, that same category. And we'll see if any of them actually, you know, if it plays out, but promising Saar, promising Keyshawn George, promising Will Riley, promising this number one overall pick, and you put a veteran or two into it, and it's interesting. Well, and you really just need two of them to hit, right? Because look, Oklahoma City's [1:07:44] was able to move off of Giddy. Giddy was a hit. [1:07:47] Right. Like that's a hit pick. And then by the time it was time to pay him. [1:07:51] They're able to swing that into Caruso because they had other ones that were going to hit. [1:07:56] Right. [1:07:56] Well, [1:07:58] OKC, we got to talk about them really quick. [1:08:01] They're 7-0 in the playoffs. We haven't talked basketball at all. We've been talking about the lottery for a playoff. They're 7-0 in the playoffs. [1:08:07] I talked about Thursday night, the S.A.J. Mitchell situation. [1:08:12] where [1:08:12] He's going to make $3 million a year next year. This is a guy who feels like he could almost run his own team at this point.

[1:08:19] they're, [1:08:20] They have the big Jalen Williams contract and big SGA and Chet. [1:08:24] and they're going to have to do some gymnastics pretty soon. They have this 12th pick, which to Verno's point, this is what you want to do. You want to keep replenishing with these guys in the first four years. [1:08:34] And it just feels like they're going to be in this situation over and over again the rest of the decade. It's really starting to feel like they could... [1:08:41] be in the finals or the Western finals, 60 plus wins here. [1:08:45] for, I don't know, the next seven, eight years. And this 12th pick is going to be a good player. And you didn't even mention, right? They got the Sorber kid. He doesn't touch the floor. And Topic, he doesn't touch. I mean, they got two. And Wiggins doesn't play anymore. That guy would have played minutes for real teams this year. Oh, for sure. He's just on the side. Yeah. [1:09:05] Yeah. Well, no, we didn't play subs house. So before the latter, I was on a FaceTime with my dad for [1:09:14] 15 to 20 solid minutes. [1:09:16] He's still really upset about the Sixers series. [1:09:19] And the Knicks series made it worse. Watching the Knicks, which that game happened tonight, it was a sweep. It was embarrassing. It was really the most humiliating weekend you could possibly have in Philly, where you not only get waxed by the Knicks – [1:09:32] but you have 70 to 75%, like for real, [1:09:36] of Knicks fans in there just [1:09:38] completely taking over the building. And then by the end of it, you go from a week ago, [1:09:43] We had the highs of this game seven. Oh my God, Paul George is in a disaster. Hey, Embiid's back. Maxie, Edgecombe. And it's so exciting to a week later being like, is Daryl going to get fired? What's going to happen? How's this going to play out?

[1:09:57] Um, [1:09:59] I just, my dad was just like, why didn't we do that against Philly? [1:10:03] Why didn't we put in beat and pick and pop stuff? Why didn't we just hound Maxie? Like, what the fuck were we doing? [1:10:09] Yeah, especially with the way that obviously they've got a ball-dominant guard and... [1:10:15] Brunson is a drop coverage demolisher, right? It was like Embiid, I don't care what his stats were. He was unplayable against them because there's no good choice to make. You cannot hide him. And to Mike Brown's credit, he was not going to let him be him. He was going to be put in every single action until you either pulled him off the court or you just lived with us bombing you out. And they just lived with getting bombed out. [1:10:44] Yeah, well they did that with the Celtics too and we didn't make any of the threes but I also didn't feel like we attacked Embiid like that house. [1:10:50] Well, I want to be as respectful as possible, but, like, this version of Celtics fandom, you guys are fucking delusional. You weren't good enough. You didn't have the talent. Ojo Nanobi... [1:11:04] whose name I'll never get right, and Carl Anthony Towns, [1:11:08] are better than what the Celtics put out in terms of a front court. Like you had no answer for, for Embiid or any of the size. They had no answer for Paul George playing, playing defense. The Knicks are better. The Knicks are better than the Celtics. And the Knicks ran the Dixies right off the court. I told my dad, we might've been saved by actually getting our ass kicked in a real way by the Knicks, especially if Tatum wasn't a hundred percent. So, well, because then it convinces you that like, Hey,

[1:11:38] we gave an honest effort every night. We were try hard, right? Sure. Yeah. Try hard. When the playoffs come around, [1:11:46] get exposed because you can't just win yeah by by with depth and playing hard right you had a team like that what was your memphis team like that recently like four or five years ago you had a team like that sure three three years ago it's why it's why people didn't believe in them right it's like because when it comes when it comes playoff time like there might be the one luke canard game or there might be the tye jones game but then but as you as you go up levels in the playoffs they [1:12:16] and then you're going to find out like okay I've actually got [1:12:21] really five that can play in this. I don't really have 10 that can play in this. I mean, hell, even in the Minnesota series during one of the Grizzlies' best seasons, [1:12:31] They made... [1:12:32] The Grizzlies bench Stephen Adams. [1:12:36] And played Xavier Tillman at center because Towns just played him off the floor completely. They were like, and that was in the first round of the playoffs. It's like once you can, if you give an honest effort and you play hard every single night, you could win a lot of regular season games. And I'll give Missoula and the Celtics credit for doing that. But I think House is right. [1:12:55] When it came down to talent, in the end, it's still... [1:12:59] you know, [1:13:00] Namias Kata and it's still Sam Hauser. Right. It's not your fault. It's not the Celtics fault that Embiid came back and was capable of being effective. You couldn't really game plan for Embiid being part of the playoff series. Also, who could have predicted Derek White being awful? Like not like okay. He was awful. One of the things we were talking about was Paul George comes back from...

[1:13:24] the suspension by the way skip bayless who i can't say i'm a fan of um [1:13:29] The playoff P P E E was legitimately funny. I'm curious. We didn't come up with that joke. We've been together. We never, how do we not come up with playoff P E was so good. Uh, but he comes back and he's got his legs and B comes back from, I, God only knows where he was. [1:13:46] And he has his legs for a week. [1:13:48] And then by the time they got to these last two Knicks games, both of them looked [1:13:53] like the guys that we picked at our worst contracts draft. So they got this little... [1:13:58] I still feel like the Celtics were a little better than a try-hard team when Tatum came back. [1:14:02] I just think the whole thing of bringing him back mid-season – [1:14:06] Combined with them bailing on the bench was pretty weird. You also started three guys that never play in game seven. That was desperate. That was desperate. The Ron Harper start will live in infamy. [1:14:20] Nobody still knows what happened with that. [1:14:23] Can we talk about the next quick? [1:14:26] They've won... [1:14:27] Three seven straight games. [1:14:30] Some of it can be attributed to using towns and running more stuff through him. And some of the passing, which has been really impressive and becoming less [1:14:39] Brunson-centric. They had a shitload of threes today. They were making... They were nine for ten at one point from three in the first quarter, but... [1:14:47] But what they've done for towns... [1:14:50] which I always kind of wondered why they didn't do it. Maybe I didn't know if he had it in him, but what they did, it just feels like they're,

[1:14:58] more interesting now house it's incredible and i give mike brown a ton of credit this of assists that he's he's gotten at least six assists in however many straight games and tonight you know i think he had seven assists in the first quarter and they're real assists they're not like i passed you a shot and you dribbled and took a three they're like backdoor layups and hitting guys cutting and stuff [1:15:21] The thing to me with this Knicks team is they have shown us now twice, both in two different closeout situations, that they have another level. And that's what's scary for this run that they're on, because they did the exact same thing to Atlanta. Like, how can they make all of these buckets and get rolling so quickly in a first quarter and basically put the game out of reach in a first quarter? They did it twice. That validates what they did to Atlanta. [1:15:51] comparing them to Atlanta, that was a more formidable foe, a more formidable situation, even though they had him down 3-0. [1:15:58] But for sure, they flew today. They were at a different kind of place altogether in terms of the speed and the force that they played that first quarter, and the game was over. That's twice, right? That's twice that they've done. A team with, theoretically, their backs against the wall should have a grand slam effort, and they just humiliated them. I mean, you look at the seven-game winning streak. They won by 16. They won by 29.

[1:16:28] They won that last game... [1:16:30] been Atlanta by 51. And then you go in this series... [1:16:34] And they had a [1:16:36] 39 point win. [1:16:38] A 14-point win in game three, that was actually not even as close. And then the blowout in this game. [1:16:43] I like when I'm seeing blowouts in the playoffs with a team. That's a different level. That tells you not only... The teams that fall behind always makes me nervous. And what's weird is the Knicks were one of those teams that they always felt like they were down 8-10. [1:16:58] with eight minutes left. Now... [1:17:01] Now they're blowing everybody out. They look really good. I mean, this is probably the best time to be a Knicks fan, I would say, since 1994. [1:17:08] Where you feel like, holy shit, we have a real chance now to win. [1:17:12] Even last year, [1:17:14] You know, it, [1:17:16] They obviously were the favorites in the Indiana series. They'd just beaten the Celtics, but [1:17:20] They weren't supposed to beat the Celtics. That was a weird series. They're kicking asses now. [1:17:26] I don't know. I like, I actually, do you think they'd go toe to toe with one of these West teams for now? [1:17:31] From what you've seen? Yeah, I do. I also think that, like, Detroit... [1:17:35] was mega physical against them and really bodied them this year. So, like, if they can get through that, if they can get through, because I think it will eventually be New York and Detroit, and go look at those games this year. Detroit pumped them out. [1:17:49] And so we'll see. I do think they would need like, [1:17:51] Full on. [1:17:53] OGN and OB to be able to deal with that, right? Because again, you're going up a level. But if they get past that, because they'll be battered and bruised by the time they get through there. But for sure, I mean, it's very plausible that we could see, you know, we saw them in the

[1:18:09] in-season tournament for what it's worth right at the very end and you know that's so nice of you to bring that up but you remember a real thing yeah i like it but everybody cares he wants some adam silver brownie points no they did care well look adam silver's on my good list we popped up three house popped up one like that's true he's i'm cool today well you know what happened nick right and i talked about on tuesday the all the mean stuff lebron said about [1:18:39] vicious, vicious comments. It wasn't just him. We got dogpiled all year. All year. Draymond, Anthony Edwards. Can we build a whole town of Memphis? Can we build a four-floor Mandarin Oriental or a montage? We can't do that, Verno? I don't know. You're the richest guy I know. Help us out. You all invested in it. [1:18:59] It's 41 nights a year plus playoffs. At least I was going to be booked some nights. I agree. [1:19:06] I've never heard a hotel. What is the hotel that gets this most hatred? We had influencers going down there and doing videos. This is amazing. The Hyatt. [1:19:16] And I mean, like, and the Weston, I suppose, the one across the street. I mean, I guess it's not up to their – NBA people and Joe House love a good hotel. I stayed at that Hyatt, and actually I was there at the same time because I went and visited Verno, did the show with Verno. [1:19:37] And it was during the season, and both Dallas Mavericks were in for a couple nights, and then Houston was in.

[1:19:46] And it's a very nice Hyatt But it is not like what they encounter In other cities And it's a super easy walk Straight down the street But they want big ass suites They want good room service They do want all that And hoes That's what the big conspiracy is We ain't got enough You gotta import some I mean We don't have enough flights I guess we don't have enough flights either [1:20:16] Hey, I just Venmo'd you for rent. Nice. Now I can instantly spend it whether I'm checking out online with Venmo or using a Venmo debit card. Say more. More exactly. Because the more you do with Venmo, the more you get. Like earning up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash on a bundle of brands. So, order more pizza. The math demands it. Get the Venmo debit card. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. See terms at Venmo.me slash stash terms. Venmo checkout not available at all merchants. [1:20:46] If we knew more about our sleep, what would we do differently? Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep? With Sleep Score, Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions, and sleep duration. Then, every morning it combines these factors into an easy-to-understand score from 1 to 100. So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from okay to very high.

[1:21:16] required. [1:21:17] We're taping this before game four of Timberwolves Spurs. [1:21:23] What Wembe did on Friday night was terrifying. This will, who knows what's going to happen in game four, but that was, [1:21:30] I thought such a fascinating game. [1:21:32] just for the future of the league that somebody age 22, [1:21:36] Could do that. I got this email. [1:21:38] Um, [1:21:40] that I thought was, [1:21:42] kind of broke my brain about [1:21:44] about the Wemby situation we're in. [1:21:47] Um, [1:21:48] Basically, so it's this guy, Bradley from LA, Laker fan. [1:21:52] And he said... [1:21:54] If you look at [1:21:56] All the guys who became Hall of Famers who won titles who were under the age of like 24 – [1:22:02] which is basically Magic Johnson, Kobe, Kareem, Duncan, Wade, Kawhi, and Bill Russell. [1:22:07] That's the list. [1:22:09] All of them had an older, awesome teammate. [1:22:12] That helped them win. So Magic had Kareem. Kobe had Shaq. Kareem had Oscar Robertson. Duncan had Robertson. Wade had Shaq. Kawhi had Duncan and Parker and Ginobili. And Russell had Kuzi and Charmin. [1:22:24] So the question is, [1:22:26] Does this mean the Spurs are going to lose or does this mean Wemby is great enough to break history? [1:22:31] And become the first guy. I was like, I actually don't need a Hall of Fame older teammate. I'm going to do this myself. How good is he to you, House? Like, what's the ceiling for you? [1:22:38] as we head into the next five weeks here? I hate to confess this. I'm still stuck on my old guy mindset. I mean, the evidence keeps piling up that he is a one-of-one capable of sort of vanquishing the entire, you know, 20, 30 year, longer than that, history that we've built up that there needs to be there's steps to this.

[1:23:04] So they need to go in and take a loss. I thought that game one against Minnesota was like, [1:23:12] Welcome to the playoffs. That's our, you know, they ran through Portland without too much trouble. The first game where they had a team come out with playoff intensity, the playoff physicality, you know, they were constantly into Wemby's chest, at his legs the entire game, was that game one. And yet the ability for San Antonio and Wemby, they just very coolly recalibrate, reset, and that game three... [1:23:42] It really challenges the old artifice. [1:23:47] Yeah, and maybe this is a new era, Verna. Yeah, you know... [1:23:51] There's part of me that thinks it might be, and it goes back to what I was saying about teams being young. I remember years ago on the mismatch, I did this whole bit where I think the Celtics had lost at some point. Maybe they were like when the Jays were like around 25. And I was like, look, you go back and look through the history of the NBA and everybody's like 27 before they do it for the first time. And that is Michael Jordan. And that is LeBron James. And that is Steph Curry. And that is Shaq. And name the great players. [1:24:21] 20, 27 or older. And so we have this expectation, but the history of the NBA tells us that. And then Giannis did it at 26. And then Gilders Alexander did it last year, I think at 26. And so that number may just keep getting lower. It might like, you know what I mean? Like, because I've already had to lower it from 27. It's like, yeah, you got to kind of got to wait until they're 27. You know, they've become men. They've probably settled down. You know, they

[1:24:51] a lot of reps and whatever, but it's interesting if there is anybody who, [1:24:56] that would be different, it certainly stands to reason that it would be him because he is, I think we throw around that he is unlike anything we've ever seen, but he's truly unlike anything in the history of the world. So why not him? I was texting, don't ask, but I was texting about Caitlin Clark with a couple of people yesterday about, [1:25:16] Why don't ask? [1:25:17] Because it was David Letterman, Howes. No, it was David Letterman and Jon Stewart. Amazing. Of course it was. Of course it was. No, but she had not a great first game, right? Yeah. [1:25:30] And I was... [1:25:31] I was thinking in my head about comparing her to Wemby. [1:25:34] where [1:25:35] Same kind of spotlight. [1:25:37] Same kind of being tested by everyone in the league over and over again. And in Caitlin's case, it doesn't seem like she's handled it 100% well. Like last year, it felt like the entire league was [1:25:48] just coming at her, right. And really trying to test her and be physical with her and, [1:25:52] It really seemed like almost like the other people on the other teams like genuinely disliked her. And she was in all these non-sports conversations and... [1:26:00] you know, kept bringing, getting brought in as a political tool. And it didn't seem like she was enjoying that part. It felt like to me, like I know nothing, but it felt like a little bit of her joy was gone. [1:26:12] And some people... [1:26:13] It's a lot when it's all getting thrown at you, right? And I look at Wemby and he's the opposite. Wemby's like, [1:26:19] fucking bring it on. I've been training for this my whole life. You're going to be physical with me. I'm going to make you pay. And I think that's been the most impressive thing to me that at age 22, he's wired the way he's wired, where he's got so much fuck you in him already.

[1:26:33] I think it's really hard to mess with him. Nobody resents him, though. [1:26:37] That league resented Caitlin Clark. They resented the fact that that's all anybody wanted to talk about. But they're also right. Like they've kind of been there. They've done that. They they're they're great players in their own right. You know, the Asia Wilsons of the world have been winning MVPs and championships. And yet it's like all anybody wanted to talk about was Caitlin Clark. And so it had this resentment. There was enough you could chip away at it because the difference with Wendy is. [1:27:05] is if you play against him or you even go see him in person, and I know we've all had the same experience, you're just like, holy shit. [1:27:12] It's just as like, [1:27:14] even three, you saw him in person, right? It's like three times crazier than I was expecting. I haven't seen him in person yet, but I just would say... [1:27:23] It's a luxury for Wemby. He's arrived in a very well-established league with a well-established collective bargaining agreement and pay structures. I mean, they brought him along how they could. The situation with the WNBA was radically different. And Caitlin Clark arrives with a giant fan base. She dragged people over to that product because they were so enamored of her college performance. She was a one-of-one in college in terms of that shooting. [1:27:53] wow, we haven't seen anybody shoot like this before. And now I'm a fan of stuff. [1:27:57] And she came over, and all of a sudden, there's eyeballs, lots of eyeballs on the WNBA for the first time. And they're in the middle of a collective bargaining agreement that's about to expire, and the entire pay scale needs to be reset, and the TV deals need to be all reset. And she did bear the brunt of a lot of that because she was the one that generated the interest that propelled the whole thing upwards, the prices they're getting for expansion teams.

[1:28:27] is responsible for the entirety of that. And she missed most of last season by being hurt. And so all she had. And the team did well without her, which is right. Yeah. There's there's ways to pick at it. It's interesting, though. Yeah. So we'll see with one way more famous to way more famous. Do you think your wives know who Victor Wembediamo is? [1:28:46] I think the last couple months, I think it's been happening. Do you think your wife knows who Victor Wimbeyan is? She definitely does. She does? The TV is on basketball in my house. It's not fair for me. That's fair. I have a 15-year-old, too. I just don't think that he's not famous like she is. [1:29:06] Was there any PCU that thought OKC was going to lose the game to the Lakers? [1:29:12] No, not after and not after watching that stupid Houston series. [1:29:16] I mean, that was so abominable that you watched that and it was like, I mean, it felt like two non-playoff teams that we were forced to watch playing each other in the playoffs. You know how that ended up being the worst matchup, but it was a 4-5. And it felt like they were the two worst teams. Well, because they didn't have Luka and they didn't have Durant. Right. I mean, it was pretty rough to watch. And so... [1:29:40] Again, another team that can expose you like Oklahoma City. And you know that you have no chance unless your turnovers are low. That's your only chance against Oklahoma City is playing with low turnovers. [1:29:54] And they're going to go out with a backcourt of Marcus Smart and Luke Kennard?

[1:29:58] I mean, that's a tough pill. It's sad. It's going to be really interesting to see who's at that game tomorrow because it's clearly going to be a sweep. It's a Monday night. [1:30:08] It's not like OKC fans are taking it over. I think it's going to have... It's going to be definitely a weird energy game. Plus... [1:30:14] How's the Laker fans lost their... [1:30:17] celebrity row title the next fans are just murdering them oh this is a route i think boston might have better celebrity fans than the lakers at this point i love what you're doing but it's not comparable i mean this next team has legit ambition to get to the eastern conference finals it was always eastern conference finals or bust for the next team that's what they did last season the energy entering the season was high that the lakers were always a work in progress and and you [1:30:47] Now that you've been there for 25 years, it's a see to be seen kind of place. Do you want to be seen? They have real fans, too, though. I got to as much as I can't stay in the Lakers. I got to talk about the court sides. We're talking about the real fans. We're talking about the court. They've never replaced the aura of Jack. And I remember writing about this like 15 years ago. They've never they never really wanted it, honestly. [1:31:10] He kind of let down the fan base. He was a person. Chalamet has embraced it. Chalamet at road games. Chalamet at road games. Spike Lee and Chalamet at road games. That's a different level, right? To travel to the game. I know it's close travel, but still, to have your celebrity fans in the opposing arena, that's something. Yeah.

[1:31:36] Put an it guy in Los Angeles right now or gal that you could put courtside that would capture the moment and that would feel like, oh, this is taking it up a notch. I mean, I think you have to go music. [1:31:48] I think they'd have to grab [1:31:52] Kendrick. [1:31:53] ironically the guy that handles his career anthony huge laker fan obviously doesn't care about the lakers he won't put kendrick at a game well anthony told me to yeah anthony told me to whip my dick out on his show today because he knew how excited i was yeah thank god you know not anthony no but maybe you have to do more musicians and not do the not do the actors as much but they still got flea right he's [1:32:14] Yeah, that's the thing. They haven't replenished. It's like an aging contender that hasn't replenished their thing. You know what I just thought of? [1:32:22] Where's my man Jimmy Goldstein? He's still in all these games. I haven't helped. [1:32:28] They don't put him on camera anymore. Yeah. There's a story there. [1:32:33] Oh, there is? Wow. [1:32:36] He used to be it. I used to show him in every game. It doesn't help what we're talking about. We want somebody that's 30 years old or under the age of 40. Last topic. [1:32:47] Before we go, Detroit, Cleveland. I had Cleveland yesterday. I wagered on them. [1:32:52] Um, [1:32:54] And they barely pulled it out. And they wouldn't have pulled it out if James Harden didn't. [1:32:59] Turned back into James Harden for like three minutes. He sucked the whole game. [1:33:03] And then for three minutes became James Harden again. Cleveland, I don't think has lost a home.

[1:33:08] home game, right? In the playoffs. Wait, hold on. Timeout. 20 seconds. Would you have rather lost the bet and Harden missed all those shots? Or... [1:33:19] Oh, Cleveland. Yeah. Just for the Hardin story? No, I wanted to win the bet. You wanted to win the bet. Yeah, I needed one after... [1:33:27] It's way fun. The Knicks have been profitable as well, House. House and I have been grabbing the Knicks lately. [1:33:35] Well, you could have a minus 30. The Knicks were minus like one and a half today. Like who thought Philly was winning today? I thought that was crazy. Crazy. [1:33:46] But anyway, what do we think happens in Cavs Pistons here? [1:33:51] Do you believe, did the Cavs do anything to make you believe in them or no? [1:33:55] No. [1:33:55] I do not believe the Cavaliers are going to beat the Pistons. I have Detroit in five. [1:34:03] I think they win game four and game five. [1:34:07] It's a weird one because I don't feel like Cleveland's playing the right lineups. [1:34:12] Now, granted, I'm a guy on my couch in LA, you know, and I'm not, not spending every minute with the team, but like, [1:34:18] Unless Sam Merrill's hurt, I don't understand why they're not playing him more. I don't understand why they only play one big instead of two. I don't understand why they play Wade when every time Wade's in, it feels like it's a disaster. [1:34:28] I would have pulled Harden. I know Harden came through down the stretch. [1:34:32] I wouldn't have played him in the last six minutes because he's such a defensive liability. But [1:34:36] It just seems like Atkinson's going to go down with the ship with

[1:34:41] this two bigs Harden and Mitchell and a shooter. And he's like, I guess this is win or lose. I don't know if I agree. I also think that, you know, [1:34:51] I know J.B. Bickerstaff from his time in Memphis, and I know he feels – [1:34:58] He feels like he got screwed there, like that he got blamed there. And he coached Donovan Mitchell, and he coached Evan Mobley, and he coached Jared Allen, and he coached James Harden when he was in Houston. He knows all those guys. So if there's anybody that knows how to make those guys look good, [1:35:19] like a semblance of, you know, or a shell of themselves, it would be him. A guy that has really, he's been, he knows what, [1:35:26] The way to defend those guys, he watched it every night. He coached all of those guys. And so I am unsurprised that he's got a good game plan against those guys to make them super uncomfortable. Also, they just don't have... [1:35:40] I don't think they have the requisite toughness. I just don't. [1:35:45] Verno knows because he's an OG. Where's that Mobley at? They don't get stops. Where's that Mobley at? Where's that Mobley at? Also, they give up wide-open threes at the worst possible times. So a team that's not even that good at shooting threes other than Robinson. Cade's the best guy in the series. [1:36:00] Cleveland's going to be the most interesting offseason team, I think. [1:36:04] If Verna's right and they lose the next two, [1:36:07] Did you say that or how states that? No, I agree with him. I agree with him. Yeah. So if that happens, I'm prepared for anything with Cleveland.

[1:36:15] And also like, [1:36:18] Mitchell at this point, [1:36:21] there's a small piece missing with him in these playoff games. [1:36:27] that Brunson seems to have, which is ironic because Mitchell was the guy the Knicks wanted all the time. [1:36:33] And maybe this will be the Mitchell moment because this Detroit team is a bitch to play against, right? They have all these... [1:36:39] dudes they could throw at him and throw at Harden. But I don't know. It's like I keep waiting for his moment, and maybe it's just going to be one of those careers where it never happens, you know? [1:36:49] Or be on the next team. [1:36:52] Or the next team. Maybe it'll be in Memphis. [1:36:54] So we all think this ends in five. [1:36:57] Yes. [1:36:58] I mean, I know I do. [1:36:59] All right, so that would be... [1:37:03] That's plus 240 on that. [1:37:05] I'm Fandle. [1:37:06] Oh, okay. [1:37:07] They must be, then they're obviously the underdog tomorrow night. So that's a, I mean, because they're going to be favored in five. [1:37:14] No matter what happens tomorrow night, they're going to be favored in game five. [1:37:24] All right, we're going to go because San Antonio... [1:37:28] San Antonio, Minnesota. Who do you guys think, who would you take? I want to get you both on the record right now. I'll let you change in the next month and a half. [1:37:39] But if you had the third pick and it was the bansta, [1:37:42] I'll give you the bands to have the bands to Peterson.

[1:37:45] And then the debate that I'm going to be having with everybody for the next six weeks is going to be Wilson or Boozer. [1:37:53] Before you came on, I told Simmons and Tate that I think that Caleb is more of a Memphis kind of player. The dynamic ability, he could be a three or a four. I think he fits what I've come to understand as what your decision makers like. They like that flexibility. And if that kid can play defense the way that Cedric Coward plays defense, that's pretty formidable. [1:38:21] I heard you last week, Bill. You love Wilson. I do. There's no way you can watch these playoffs and not think, boy, he fits in these. [1:38:30] Yeah, it's funny because the way the... [1:38:32] The way the draft fell, Memphis got three. [1:38:35] And Boozer just seemed like such a clear... [1:38:38] Memphis guy, just because, you know, [1:38:41] competitive. I liked how he handled himself even when they fell apart and that when his brother screwed up the NCAA game. [1:38:48] And he was just like, he was the only one that did seem rattled by it. [1:38:52] But I think the Wilson upside is I just can't believe the tape with him. [1:38:57] I don't want to say he really seems special, but I potentially I do. I do think, number one, the Bimfist front office loves analytics. And they also in this new era, I do think are going to try to atone for the mistakes made with Morant. Right. They want to make it all about the team, not elevate a star above everybody else that then gets bigger than the operation.

[1:39:27] you know, [1:39:27] the car went off the cliff. [1:39:31] And Boozer is like, [1:39:33] He is as safe as safe come. There is 0% chance he's going to suck. [1:39:40] There's a... [1:39:41] Pretty good chance he's going to be awesome. [1:39:44] And there's a hundred percent chance. Well, I don't want to say a hundred, but, uh, [1:39:49] 80% chance you never hear one. [1:39:53] I don't even know if he's on social media or anything. He's an A-plus character. Not controversial. Yeah. Nothing controversial. Nothing. He's like, it's like the anti. It's like everything. No, he's like in a rom-com, he's like [1:40:08] They're heading toward the wedding in the beginning of the rom-com, and he's the perfect guy. [1:40:13] on paper he's got everything and yet that yeah caleb wilson's over there he's like the bartender like whoa look at that guy and all of a sudden we have a love triangle caleb wilson if you there's youtube clips of him you just watch 10 minutes of him and you're like is this guy sean camp cross with yannis i know and he's so electric and i keep thinking of him and caleb together [1:40:36] So you have that, but then you have Memphis, Grit and Grind, Analytics. This guy is just like a guaranteed. So it's a really tough one. [1:40:44] But it might be Memphis' one chance to get a super-duper star. I don't think Cam Boozer is going to be a super-duper star. I think he'll be a star in a couple all-NBA, second- or third-teams kind of guy.

[1:40:57] But Caleb Wilson could be like, I don't know what he's going to be house. [1:41:00] I'm literally prepared for anything. I agree. Two good choices, though, Verno. I don't think there's a wrong decision. If you threw him, him and Bozellis would have some crazy-ass dunks in Chicago. They would make the Bulls fun for the first time in forever. Well, Tate made the key point. Caleb is a chip-on-the-shoulder guy, and if he's fourth in a class of four— [1:41:23] Oh, yeah, that's it. It's like boom. [1:41:27] going on there um [1:41:29] The great thing is you can't lose. And it's a position you needed. [1:41:34] Oh, yeah. You traded Jaron Jackson, which I, as you know, I supported that trade. We argued about Jaron Jackson a million times. I was never a giant fan. [1:41:42] I'm pretty sure your current place is 5.7 rebounds a game. I don't know if you've figured out how to put those together yet. Hold on. One of the guys we argued about was Mobley, by the way. [1:41:54] Maybe everybody was a loser We're all And the other thing is We also got lucky [1:42:02] Because Sacramento ain't up there and Brooklyn ain't up there. [1:42:06] And those are Morant homes. [1:42:08] Those are possible, right? If you don't hit the lot, if you just crapped on your fans again and you missed out and you're not going to get a new shiny toy to sell those sweets and season tickets, right? You think Moran's gone, whatever happens. [1:42:23] That's your take. But I mean, and maybe you push Morant and 16 in and now you're moving up again. You know what I mean? Like,

[1:42:30] I do think that because it could have gone different if Sacramento or Brooklyn ends up with DeBansta, or say they went 1-2 in this or 1-3 in this, maybe it's a little different world, but... [1:42:43] I do think that those are possible landing spots when the trade stuff comes around just because they're going to need something to sell. And he is fun as hell. [1:42:53] He is fun. As long as he plays, he is fun. [1:42:56] Brooklyn could be your outcome there. Last thing before we go. [1:43:00] OKC right now is minus 170 to win the title on FanDuel. [1:43:04] San Antonio is plus 320. [1:43:06] The Knicks are plus 750. [1:43:10] What's your favorite bet out of those three, Verno? [1:43:13] Thank you. [1:43:16] So, yeah. [1:43:19] I think I would say just odds-wise Knicks. [1:43:22] I think it's next, right? Plus 750 is like good odds. Is Ananobi going to be able to be 100% by the time we get to the NBA Finals? [1:43:32] And it almost feels like if he's not, then I don't like it. And honestly, like, look, Oklahoma City's obviously the that's last on that. How about this? What is Detroit plus a billion? Like, I mean, because they're not 18 to one. Oh, wow. [1:43:48] I mean, again... [1:43:50] Minnesota 150-1, although that game is starting right now. Yeah, I think that, yeah, I think probably. Minnesota missed their game. Three was they, if they could have beaten San Antonio in game three.

[1:44:01] with Wemby having a game like that, they just couldn't hit a shot. [1:44:04] Michael McDaniels was like five for 22. Like nothing was going in. Randall was bad. All right, burnout. We can listen to you on the mismatch. [1:44:11] Yep. [1:44:13] I'm excited to hear where you finally... So you've landed on... Caleb, it's out. No, no, no. I'm not laying... So you made us pick, and then you didn't even do a lean. [1:44:23] He needs to milk it. He's got six weeks. If you put my head on a guillotine today, I'd tell you they'd take Boozer. [1:44:30] But I want to watch this whole thing play out. I'm going to lean toward... [1:44:34] I'm going to lean toward [1:44:35] Caleb Wilson. But I may prefer Wilson by the time it all comes around. Yeah, I'm going to change my mind. It's going to be a fun six weeks. And would you rather have House take the Bansa or would you rather move back a spot and flip picks with Utah and grab some stuff? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do not do this. [1:44:51] No, you get A.J. DeBanston. [1:44:54] The first time I heard about AJ's band said he was 13. [1:44:59] And the guy called me and said, I just saw the next one. And I've had that... [1:45:04] I'm telling you. Wow. There's people with the legend of Peterson. The legend of Peterson also is out there. I mean, you know that, Verna. The Bansa is going to be a major, major star. You cannot pass on it, bro. The Bansa star in 22 games of Anthony Davis before he gets hurt? It's going to be amazing. He's on the trade block. We're going to be. You guys see that thing going around about how the way to get the number one pick is to trade.

[1:45:31] For Anthony Davis? [1:45:33] It's three times! [1:45:36] What was the third time? It was Dallas did it. [1:45:39] Pelicans, right? Or no, no, no, no. They traded him, though. [1:45:44] Wait, wait, wait, wait. [1:45:45] They haven't traded him yet. You do trade him. [1:45:48] Yeah, you have to trade him. It follows like the horror movie. [1:45:52] Um, [1:45:53] All right. Thanks to Verna. Thanks to Joe House. Technical difficulties. We made it work. Thanks to our guy, Tay Frazier. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. New rewatchables coming tomorrow. [1:46:04] Um, [1:46:05] Tropic Thunder. [1:46:07] congrats to these two guys the first and third picks in the NBA lottery and we'll see you next Sunday night on Netflix [1:46:18] Must be 21 plus in president in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in president in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted government id] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call [redacted phone] for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE. [1:46:48] or text HOPENY in New York for Louisiana. Call [redacted phone]. [1:46:56] That's the sound of zero sugar, 200 milligrams of caffeine, and the power to burn body fat.

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