Popcast: Olivia Rodrigo Tried Writing Love Songs. Then Life Got Messy.

[00:00] I gave my brother a New York Times subscription. We exchange articles. And so having read the same article, we can discuss it. She sent me a year-long subscription so I have access to all the games. The New York Times contributes to our quality time together. It enriches our relationship. It was such a cool and thoughtful gift. We're reading the same stuff. We're making the same food. We're on the same page. Learn more about giving a New York Times subscription as a gift at nytimes.com slash gift. [00:30] Thank you. [00:30] Hey, it's Michael. [00:31] Today, we're going to do something a little bit different. [00:34] We're going to hand our show over to our colleagues at PopCast, the Times' pop culture show. It's hosted by music critic John Caramonica and culture reporter Joe Coscarelli. You've heard both of them on The Daily before, talking about Bad Bunny's Super Bowl performance, not to mention Joe's interview with Taylor Swift, which was featured in our episode a few weeks ago about the 30 greatest living American songwriters, except, of course, for Billy Joel, [01:04] The big news is that PopCast will now be coming out every week as both an audio and video show featuring some of the biggest names in music and culture, like A$AP Rocky, Anne Hathaway, Rosalia, and many more. We love what PopCast is doing, and we want to share it with you.

[01:34] and her thoughts about speaking out about politics. You can find PopCast every Thursday at nytimes.com slash podcast, at youtube.com slash podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. [01:50] Okay. [01:51] Enjoy the show. [01:54] I actually don't think I've ever really done a podcast before, too. I think this is my first real one. I've never sat down and done a two-hour conversation thing. Killer. Well, get comfy. Yeah, I'm comfy. Get deep. Log in. Uncross those arms. Uncross those arms. It's real loose. [02:09] Everyone take a deep breath. [02:11] Young Lean taught us how to do breath work. Erykah Badu taught us how to do breath work. I would trust Erykah Badu with my life. We did fire breathing with her. Oh, wow. Sometimes that makes me more anxious. I didn't want to tell Erykah that. They have like crazy ones in yoga where you're like, and I'm like, I'm hyperventilating now. This sucks. [02:41] Showtime. Let's do it. Yes. You've been waiting my whole life. Yes, exactly. Thank you. That's the attitude. [02:58] *Bell rings* [02:59] Welcome to the New York Times Popcast, your bedroom of Versailles, of weekly culture chat. I'm John Caramonica. I'm the critic.

[03:06] I am Joe Coscarelli. I'm the reporter. I'm Olivia Rodrigo, and I'm on PopCast. Finally. Finally. Thank God. Thank you. Thank you. God, I love you guys. I love this show. It's very kind. And as we said to you just a moment ago, truly on our 1.0 mood board, having you here, we're extremely thrilled that you're here. What a special day. Truly. For me as well. I really appreciate all the work you guys do, and I love all of your opinions. Certainly not all of them. I don't hear that a lot. [03:36] informed, conscious opinions. They are thought through. You don't have to agree with all of that. That's not how criticism works. Thank you. Will you tell your friends? [03:48] Just put it in the group chat. Critics are allowed. Yes, critics are allowed. You don't need much introduction, but Olivia Rodrigo, the Grammy winning artist, singer-songwriter behind four now number one hits. Most recently [04:06] From her new album, You Seem Pretty Sad for a Girl So in Love, out June 12th, very soon. Starting in 2021, Olivia burst on the scene with Driver's License. A smash that was the most obvious. You might have been my first interview for that, too. I remember. I think that happened. We did Diary of a Song. Wait, so you're second semester, senior year, and you just released your first single. Yeah, first semester. Yeah, not even second. I'm like dying over here. [04:36] We knew you were going to have...

[04:38] I think a long and special career. Before that, Olivia was known for her work on Disney, first on Bizaardvark, [04:45] Shout out to Bizarre Park. Shout out to Bizarre Park. Let's go make some videos. Hey, hey, let's go make some videos. Hey. If you haven't seen it, someday you'll have kids and maybe you'll see it. It's really having a resurgence, though. Is that true? People will stop me on the street and they're like, oh my God. I'm like, oh yeah, I make music. They're like, I love Bizarre Park. I'm like, that's weird. Are you saying? That's weird. Yeah, the music stuff comes after for them. They don't care about that. That's incredible. High School Musical, The Musical, The Series. Awesome. Long title. Incredible. Long, long titles here. [05:15] incredible. It would be insane to think I might actually have a shot at playing Gabriella. Your first two albums, Sour and Guts, mixed. [05:23] pop punk fury with devastating balladry that's sort of been your magical uh formula up to this point you're swerving yet again on this album we're going to get into it we're going to talk about the new work and so much more so you are it's about to get very intense you're in the roll up is is rolling yeah we're coming up to town release we had the opportunity to go to snl yes [05:53] Tell the viewers about how you corrected the script. Wow. You're ready. You're ready. You want to go there? I'm always on the lead. Okay, good. So we will tell that story. Okay, good. So we got to watch you... [06:04] host and perform SNL. I know it's been and was a dream to do that. I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about that experience and then we'll talk about our uncredited assist. Yeah. It was so much fun. I have been dreaming about hosting and performing on SNL forever. I'm such a huge fan of everything that they do. I think just artistically, it's a real feat that

[06:34] like oh that sketch wasn't my favorite it's still just so astounding that they're able to do something that high quality week after week the work that they put in is insane getting to like witness that up close was really really inspiring like we were blown away it's insane like the way that they work that just they're such a family they like love each other so much they get along they're so devoted to this like common mission and cause i think that's why it works i think people were like kind of iffy about it the show would fall apart but everyone is just so steadfast in their desire to make the best show possible and it's just really inspiring from an artistic [07:04] or not you're like into comedy or not. That was my exact experience because I'm not traditionally a huge SNL fan. And I've been there during the week, like with artists doing some reporting, et cetera, but I'd never seen a full show. So we were at the dress rehearsal and we were sitting in the balcony and just watching the behind the scenes of how many people it takes, the sets, the movements. You guys did an amazing stunt where it looked like people were falling down the stairs [07:34] Namely, literally did your own stunts on SNL. But the thing you were alluding to is that the final skit we saw in a dress rehearsal was you and Veronica in the backseat of an Uber. And the driver breaks out into a Jamaican patois rap.

[08:04] And... [08:09] In the early version of the script we saw, they had you referring to what he was doing as reggaeton. Right. And John and I... Like, we're sitting... Joe and I are sitting right at each other, and, like, immediately we're just like... [08:19] And then at the end, we're sort of like, do we tell someone? Do we say something? We didn't want to see you get flamed on the internet for it. You guys think so. You saved me. So we managed to relay the message that it was probably the word they were looking for was either dance hall or reggae or Jamaican dance hall. And then. [08:40] When I woke up the next morning, the first thing I got served on Instagram was that skit on social. And I was like, oh, no, oh, no. And then I saw the subtitles and it said, OK, but you like started aggressively singing a Jamaican dance hall song like really loud. Hell, yeah. Jamaican dance hall. You guys saved the day. I wasn't going to bring it up, but. I'm glad you did. That's how the sausage gets made. We're fact-taking all music from here on out. Yes. [09:08] Yes. [09:08] That is one of the big ten-pole moments of the next few weeks, you being on SNL. And we have been able to hear your album and live with it for a little while. And by the time when this comes out, it's still going to be a little bit before people. But we can talk about it. We have some details. We'll give some gems out. A little teaser. A little teaser. So – [09:27] This album, to me, strikes me as a chronological, structured mini narrative about the rise, plateau, high plateau, and then collapse of a relationship. Mm-hmm.

[09:42] I'm curious from a writing perspective, are you writing those things in real time as the experiences are happening? Yeah. For the most part, it is chronological and in the order in which it happened in my life. And it's the first time that's happened. And I think it was really interesting for me creatively to structure it that way. But I've never been a person who's like, I'm going to make a concept record. It's all going to be this and it's going to be this way and sound this way and look this way. [10:12] my feelings. So every day when I like come and like I sit at the piano or I get the guitar, I go to the studio, it's like, what does what is like burning in me to say right now? Yeah. I think it just like all comes from the heart. And I think it's not super like calculated in that way. And so. So they sort of aggregated in a way like you were writing songs and then you took a step back and said, huh? Yeah. It is kind of like boom, boom, boom. Yeah, exactly. But I'm really happy with the way it turned out. And I think. Yeah. [10:39] Dan and I sort of like... [10:41] After writing breakup songs and stuff, we had the fun challenge of going back and actually tweaking some of the love songs on the record and making them a little more honest and more sad and creepy, like the song... [10:53] purple is originally a love song which feels like a big turning point on the album yeah it's like six songs and it's purple and it's like that's when like the doubt creeps in and then the cure it's like you flip the record and it's the cure and that's sort of like the unraveling as we say of um this narrative and uh so yeah i was really happy with the way that it turned out and sort of sort of after the fact we've already written like the first like maybe six songs on the record and writing the more like sad sort of decomposed um songs on the record we we kind of like uh

[11:23] Thank you. [11:24] post-mortem kind of went in and changed things and sort of made it a whole body of work rather than, you know, like little moments. Is there a specific line or stanza in one of the first songs that you remember being like, okay, I really need to reframe this. I really need to deepen this. Is there something that sticks in your mind? Yeah. I mean, like the Honey Bee lyric, like having Honey Bee, Honey Bee is one of my favorite songs on the record. And having it also tying it back into the last song, I think was really nice for me to just sort of made it feel more. [11:54] I don't think that it's a – it's not a concept album. I think that's doing a disservice to actual concept albums. But I think it's like a capsule. Yeah, sure. Like a thing. And so like little things like that or changing purple or putting that little honeybee thing kind of – towards the end of the process, I mean, we feel like, okay, it's really an album now and it's really telling us like one story. I would go so far as to call it a concept album. You think? The narrative is so tight. Like – [12:15] what is good kid mad city if not a song if not an album with a beginning and an end sure and then you come back to the beginning like the fact that drop dead the opening track is like essentially before the first date and leading into the early excitement and butterflies of a relationship and falling in love and one of the things i really like is there's different slices of what happiness [12:45] Yeah.

[12:50] When did you realize that you had an ending? Because if you're writing this in real time, [12:57] presumably you were as floating on air as you were in some of these early tracks. Where did you think the album could end initially? [13:08] if you stayed in that zone? Yeah, that's a good question. [13:14] I mean, I think I always knew that I didn't want it to be... Like, even Stupid Song to me, I was really inspired by... [13:20] This book, Simple Passion by Annie Arnault, it's like this, she's having this affair with this person and she's not quite happy. She's kind of just going insane. Like everything she does, she's reminded of this person. The longing like overcomes her. And I was like really, I was really inspired by just all of the ways in which love makes you insane and miserable. You know what I mean? I think that there's a lot more, there's a lot more to mine there than just like. [13:41] Yay! Oh my god, he's so hot, he loves me! That's everything. [13:46] And so I was always kind of curious about trying to like mine these more depressing feelings out of these love songs. I think initially I thought that that was what the record was going to be, just all love songs, but trying to inject some sadness into them. And then obviously sadness in a real kind of more whole way crept its way into the end. I guess when I started making it, I didn't know how it was going to end. And I think that's how I always start all the records.

[14:16] you know which you have mentioned previously that multiple songs on this album are inspired by miranda and steve from sex in the city and i knew that going in before i heard it and that was one of the songs where i'm like this is a very miranda song this idea that she's like you know my brain is mush yeah basically is that is that a miranda yeah yeah it's from the scene where miranda is [14:46] I always want to tell you about it. Anytime something funny happens, I want to tell you. It's one of the lyrics in the second verse. But yeah, that's one of my favorite songs on the record. I really love it. I think when we made that one sonically, I was like, oh yeah, this feels right. And this feels like the point in time that I'm at. I think I kind of knew, and Dan and I, who I made the record with, I think... [15:07] Thank you. [15:08] I love rock music, and I have such a reverence for rock music, and it's all that I really listen to. But I think going into it, I felt a little... [15:17] Like it wasn't, it didn't feel exciting to me or something like, like rock in the traditional sense of like power chords, like distortion, blah, blah, blah. That's not here on the album. That's not here on the album. Yeah. But I think the song like that feels like alternative to me without being like, I love rock and roll by Joan Jett, which is one of my favorite songs. Love that song. But like, you know, it. [15:36] It was in a more subtle way. And that was more exciting to me than writing, like, some, like, really banger thing, which maybe – I love those songs. Maybe I'll do that later. But I think, like, making that song was like, okay, this is the – I kind of, like, figured out what I, like, wanted.

[15:51] the sound to be a little bit or like what was going to be different about this record. It's interesting to hear you talk about [15:57] And that style of rock not being as much of a draw as it was in the prior two albums, because obviously there are certain moments on this album that are really living in the 82 to 85 world. You're sort of getting the new romantics. You're getting the cure. You're getting maybe a little talking heads. I wrote Devo down at one point. Yeah, some New Order. [16:27] don't signal. Yeah, it just felt more exciting. There was something about the restraint of it that felt nice. I was just really obsessed with that [16:35] type of music too while I was making it. I did Gossenbury with Robert Smith, which was insane. [16:46] I'd always been a fan of The Cure, but since meeting him and getting to hang out with him, I kind of went back and listened to all those new wave bands like that. And I was living in England at the time, so obviously you get a lot of English band inspo. For me, [17:00] in songwriting, the sentiment always comes first. And so I knew that I wanted to write songs about how it felt to be in love. And love feels like, [17:06] That, to me, it kind of feels like that vibe, like the emotional quality of it. I can't describe it. It's just like that's how it felt. It didn't feel like, you know what I mean? You also used, I think, a clever trick where you connect the new wave of the 80s with music influenced by new wave, I think. Like there's some songs on here that sound like La Tigre instead of Bikini Kill, you know, both Kathleen and Hannah bands, but different sides of it. Big Olivia fan, Kathleen and Hannah.

[17:36] Of course. Kathleen Hanna. I had a thought when listening to My Way that there's some no doubt in there. Yeah, for sure. I know you're a big return of Saturn girl. I love no doubt. And you mentioned the Cure who spanned both of those eras, who continued making music through that. And they are a through line through the album. You allude to Just Like Heaven and Drop Dead, the first song. [18:06] comes after purple in the track list. And that's the moment where you say you're [18:12] Punning, obviously, on the band title in some ways, but you say... [18:16] Buff's not fixing me. It's not the be-all and the end-all. Can you talk a little bit about the writing of The Cure and what that song means to the album's story? I think that song is the thesis statement of the album. You Seem Pretty Sad for a Girl So in Love. I remember... [18:33] making that song and feeling so excited, like, okay, I know what I'm like trying to say with this thing. I love that song so much. It makes me like emotional to listen to it now. [18:53] I was on my couch and I played the chords. And I [19:00] wrote the verse lyrics and thought that there was really interesting and, um, brought it to Dan and we finished it together. And, um,

[19:08] Yeah, it just means so much to me. I think... [19:11] I think that that was a realization that I had. And you can only have when you're like in like a real like big girl relationship. I think that for so long, when I was younger, I was always like reaching for something that was like, Oh, if I have this, then I'll be happier. If I have this thing in my even in my career, I'll be happier if I like have this guy and he loves me the way I always thought he would love me, like I'll feel better about myself. And, you know, slowly throughout the course of my life and this relationship that I'm talking about, I kind of just realized that [19:38] the issues that you have aren't just going to be solved by some other person. Like something can distract you, but like it, it, it, and also, they're your issues. Yeah. They're your issues. Yeah. [19:56] I also even think that falling in love actually, [19:59] makes those issues even clearer to you. I think that's why it's so important. Like, some of my friends are like, well, I'm not gonna marry them. Like, why would I, you know, be in this relationship with them? I'm like, that it's like, the way that you know yourself the most in this world, like you could, you know yourself so deeply and so intimately by like, [20:14] falling for people and being raw and gross and like making mistakes. And I think that that's such a thing that's unique to being in a romantic relationship. And so I think I was also figuring that out. I think I was in a romantic relationship that was actually real and intimate for the first time and being like, whoa, this is holding a mirror to me and I'm seeing shit that I don't like about myself. And that was a tough realization. And I think that that's embedded in the cure too. And, um, yeah.

[20:38] Yeah, I really love this song. It's one of my favorite songs I've ever written. I think it's... Also, in the context of the album, you know, where it sits, you know, just after the middle, but it's long... [20:48] you're lingering on it it's like it's like you're you're telegraphing something just simply by saying you're gonna have to sit with this for five or six minutes like it's like that's you're coding the meaning in the lyrics but you're also coding in the structure it feels like yeah yeah i think that's sort of like the apex of the album too like i think in all the love songs leading up to it like there's a hint of like maybe this or dissatisfaction or like oh i really miss them and that's why i'm sad or blah blah and i think when it gets to the cure it's like the most honest part where like all [21:18] I mean, I love writing like a power ballot that like really builds. But like when I finish listening to it, it feels like it's some sort of like catharsis or like some sort of acceptance of like that this is your fate. How do you know as a songwriter when something is worth writing a song about? And especially, I mean, look, I haven't been in my 20s for at least a few years, four or five years. But I vividly remember the intensity of feeling. [21:48] of being really up and then really down and then going back to how you felt a week earlier and kind of like the instability of that. And if you're experiencing feelings quite intensely and you have a creative outlet for it, [22:01] What takes it from something that's in here to like, damn, I got to I got to get this out. Is there a specific intensity of feeling? Is it a detail? How do you know? Yeah, it's a good question. Um.

[22:15] I don't know. I think you really... Every time is different. I'm a big quantity over quality songwriter. I write all the time about lots of things. [22:25] And then sometimes you stumble upon something that's good. I really don't know. There's not like a... [22:30] I'm never like, oh, I have an idea, and it's going to be an awesome idea. You're not stingy about it. No, I'm not stingy about it. I have some friends who are the opposite, who write five songs a year, and they're the best five songs you've ever heard. I write 250 songs that are the worst, and then I write three songs that I love. But I just love the process of writing. I love being alone and being alone. [22:50] playing my guitar or like writing things down. It's like so much fun for me. I think I know if I've like stumbled upon something good, if I really want to listen to it like a week after I write it, or if it makes me feel like, oh yeah, that is how I was feeling. And that's a really clear, concise way of saying it. But I don't know. There's, it's, it's different every time. And you're working it out in the room as well. Like you have your step in the process, then you bring it in with Dan and then sort of, I'm sure there's things that don't make it past that. Yeah. I feel like meetings change so much. Like even, [23:17] You guys listening to the album, I listened to some of the mixes before we sent it to you guys. Even a month after making it, it just feels so different in your body. You just have totally different associations with it. I don't know. There's no science behind it. I'm still figuring it out. I don't know. You mentioned the... [23:36] ugly sides of even being in love. And one of them that you touch on on this album, and what I think is an interesting way, is jealousy and being territorial, which is something that has been present in your earlier music, but not, as you say, from the vantage of a big girl relationship. This song, My Way, that I mentioned earlier, strays a little from the central relationship narrative. And I thought you make a pretty...

[24:05] Direct choice to target it at another woman in the tradition of great songs like Jolene or Misery Business or Better Than Revenge. And given your standing position. [24:18] among young women and how important of a songwriter you are. [24:22] to your audience did that feel like a risk to write a song that pointed where you call yourself a petty bitch yeah you know what i haven't given it so much thought i think i was just really in the heat of the moment writing it and that's how it is and sometimes you're like i really need to get this out and i'm fucking pissed and maybe isn't the most evolved thing ever to say but i really loved the song and i love the way it turned out and i love [24:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No pun intended. No doubt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [24:57] But yeah, I really love that song. The album isn't very angry at all, and I think that's the one angry touchstone. But yeah, I'm really proud of it. I stand by it. Is that okay if you're the villain? Is that okay? Whatever. I don't know. No, I'm being serious, because I think... It's fun to play that character sometimes. It is fun to play that character, but I also think that... [25:20] Certain songwriters and certain pop stars have had anxiety over the years of like, I'm known to be one style of person, but I am a complex person. I have these different sets of feelings, but sometimes they won't put it in songs. But they're like probably like two moments on this album where I was like, I think she might be okay with being the villain. Like I wonder if you think of it in those terms.

[25:47] Gosh, it's an interesting question. I've never really thought about it. I don't know. This sounds like a cop out, but I just like know who I am as a person really well. And I know. [25:56] my intentions and things and I know why I write songs and I know that I'm [26:02] like a nice person. And I like, I'm not suggesting you're not a nice person. I'm not, you know, but I, I think, [26:08] I think that that type of criticism only really hurts when there's like something in it that I like think is like a little bit true. Like if something, if someone were to like criticize something that I was already doubting, I'd be like, ah, God, like that's the stuff that gets to me. But I don't know. I also think that [26:21] pop music in a really beautiful way. Everyone is [26:24] projecting their own experiences onto you. Like that's the type of songwriting that I do. And that's, I love that type of songwriting. That's why I got into it. Like so many heroes that like do that type of songwriting. And so, [26:35] I don't take it so personally. When I listen to my favorite pop songs, I'm thinking about my experiences and me in that pop song and how I felt with my ex-boyfriend and blah, blah, blah. I'm not really thinking about that person and the exact specifics that they're talking about. And people can relate to feeling angry and pissed and jealous and territorial and whatever it is. It's like that is as valid of a feeling as what would traditionally be a good feeling.

[27:05] I think that that's out of my control and under my business. Fair enough. Since driver's license, one of the other things you've been praised for is your ability to drop a well-placed curse word, especially an F-bomb. [27:19] Vampire also has a great one in its chorus. It feels like you're a little bit more sparing with it this time around. I mentioned Bitch. I think I counted two other F-bombs. There's a goddamn in there. [27:35] what to me is like the defining line of the album and sort of the thesis statement outside of the cure. They say modern love is a cruel endeavor. [27:44] To that I say, fuck it, whatever. Was that intentional, the cutting back, so it was not to consider it a crutch, to really save it for those gut punch moments? Honestly, no. I remember Dan and I the other day were doing clean versions of all the songs, and we're like, damn, this would take us two days back when we were doing Sour, and this took us an hour. [28:03] But no, I think I'm just feeling less angsty these days. I don't know what it is. I think maybe I... [28:10] swore more as a teenager as we all do maybe way too much which i've only realized now that i have a two-year-old who repeats what i say and now i'm like oh i really need to i really need to come damn my producer has a two-year-old too and we hang out with her obviously a lot in the studio and she goes up to her dad the other day and she's like daddy why does olivia say fuck so much and i was like see this is what i'm trying to this is what i'm trying to avoid i was like oh

[28:40] R and we picked her up from school or whatever. I was singing along to the song on the radio and she starts crying. She's like, Daddy, I hate it when Olivia sings. I was like, oh no. I'm going to reconsider a lot right now. Probably because she associates it with Daddy going to work. That's true. That's true. That's grim, kind of. Well, you know. Her psychiatrist is going to pass that one. Literally, that's why we use therapy down the line for that. I can't listen to Olivia [29:10] I can't. That's really, really funny. That's really, wow. [29:14] The tension on this album in the arc is about trusting another person and also trusting yourself. There are so many moments on your last album where I feel like it's you singing about how vast the world has become and how challenging that was to navigate and, [29:31] How do you identify in the real world, not in art, but in the real world, [29:36] how a person is trustworthy or is a person trustworthy? Like what are the things that are your [29:42] either triggers or touchstones and how have those things changed over the last four or five years? Yeah. How do you know if someone's trustworthy? [29:54] God, that's such a hard question. I don't know if I have like a profound answer for that. That's all right. This is, look, the podcast is at least 10% therapy. Yeah, I know. I feel that. Um, [30:05] I don't know. You know my biggest red flag? It's just not profound at all. But like when I hang out with someone and they're like – Daddy gang. Daddy gang. Quack quack 3000.

[30:16] I – whenever I meet someone and they're like – [30:18] And yeah, like a few of my friends, they just like, they just ghosted me. I don't know what happened. I'm like, hmm. Calls coming from inside the house. Like that's just. Yeah, a few. It's like one, maybe. One, maybe like, okay. But I don't even know. That's a real spill. That's a real spill. Like having like intense falling outs with your friends. Like I've never really had that in my life. I think, I think maybe once or twice. But like when people get that repeated occurrence. Sure. I'm like, hmm. Interesting. [30:48] I think like someone being able to hold down a long term, beautiful friendship is like the best thing that you could do. That's like you have emotional depth. You could care about other people. Other people trust you, which is. Yeah. Yeah. I think friendship is a big indicator. But I don't know. I'm so I'm sure I'll get betrayed more in my life. Who knows? I think of course. Vampire is a really good example of trying to figure that out in real time and maybe being fooled by someone. [31:18] who you thought was interested in you, but then was really after your fame or your notoriety or trying to get something from you. [31:34] I think when I listen to that album, it's like... [31:38] It's so interesting. When you're in it, you, like, can't tell. Yeah. But when I listen to it, like, these days, like, I was, like, rehearsing for a show the other day and, like, listened to all the songs back. It's just, like, really is, like, a 19-year-old disillusionment with the world and just feeling, like, so confused. And I feel like I'm definitely less disillusioned these days. But, like...

[31:54] Looking back, yeah, I was like betrayal and like finding your footing. And I think I think I did. I remember going into the album being like, I don't want to write about like being newly famous because that sucks. And like, I hate when people do that. And I think that there was hopefully like it was in there like a little tactfully sprinkled in. But I think that that was a huge part of my experience. But I don't think that it's unlike any other 19 year old going to college. You're just like trusting people. You're so open. You're around all these people that you've never been around. And you're like making all these mistakes and like figuring shit out in real time. [32:24] back on guts, not only artistically, but as a moment in your career, because you talk about this pressure that comes with a sophomore album, you know, people invoke the sophomore slump a lot in terms of, I think exactly what you're saying, where it's like you, your whole life goes into your first album, then between your first and your second album, if the first one does really well, maybe the only thing you have to write about is sort of what it's like to become newly famous. And is that enough, et cetera? That album, I'm, [32:52] was successful on its own terms, of course. But I wonder how you look back on how it was received and how it performed and how that influenced what you did on your third album. Because I was really struck by the fact that this album doesn't feel like you're searching for smash hits necessarily. It felt like you wanted to make an album album, a capital A album with a beginning, middle, and end. Thank you. And I wonder if any of that came from... [33:17] Either how guts went or didn't go for you. [33:22] Yeah, that's a really great question. I mean, I think it was hard. I mean, looking back, I have so much compassion myself. Like, that was crazy. What happened with Sour was crazy. And at the time, I didn't realize how crazy it was. Like, obviously, I was like, wow, I'm so happy. I'm grateful. But I didn't realize that that, like, is insane. And I was 17 when it, like, all happened. It's so...

[33:46] wild and like if i if i were to like be an outsider and like watch that happen to some you know oh my god like so i think i couldn't i didn't realize it at the time but um so i have like a lot of compassion for myself even after the aftermath of sour like that was so much pressure like how that it was so insane and just like people on the internet and like all this crisis and you're when you're 19 you don't know who you are in general you don't know who your real friends are you don't know who you want to date you don't know what like you really want to be doing with [34:15] It's just, it was a lot. And looking back, I'm so proud of that record. I think putting it out, I felt a little like, oh God, it's like, I'm never going to make anything as big and as good as sour and blah, blah, blah. But looking back, I'm so proud of so many of those songs. I think All American Bitch is my favorite song I've ever written. [34:45] that song so much now. [34:54] Yeah, it's just having a little space totally changes your perspective on it, but... [34:59] Yeah, I'm really proud of both of those records. Even stuff where I'm like, oh, God, that song could have, like, I could have lived without that song. [35:07] I don't think I'll ever regret writing honestly about where I am in my life, and I'll always have compassion and love for her. Yeah, I was going to say, so you hear them both as art, but also as documents of the intensity of the experiences. For sure, for sure. This album feels very settled to me. Obviously, you're going through an emotional arc, but you have clarity about that emotional arc. You're not zigzagging. You're kind of like, I think I see what's happening here. Even if what I'm seeing is bad and ugly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, even if it was tough.

[35:37] but it's like, I see what's going on here. And does that track with how you live off the, off the album? Like, is that when you're talking to your friends, do you feel like much more lucid as a assessor of the world? Tell me about that. God, for sure. But I just think that that's growing up. It's like, [35:57] It's an interesting thing to grow up with the people who listen to my music. I feel like we're kind of around the same age, going through the same things, and just the lucidity that I see things with. But it's not unique to me. None of it is. So I think you just collect so many experiences that you kind of know yourself more and know the world more. I don't know. Every album, though, I feel like I'm learning about myself, but I'm also learning how to write songs every album. I don't think I'll ever feel like, okay, I know how to do this. Perfect. [36:27] this, I know exactly what I want this to be. Every time I sit down to write a song, I feel like I'm learning it for the first time. And I think that that's what keeps it exciting and fun as a creative person. I have tips and tricks and I know all the pop songwriting tricks that you're supposed to do and all that stuff. But I just really feel like I'm endlessly learning. And I'm so grateful that I get to do this job and just keep being curious about stuff.

[36:57] that are on opposite ends of the album that both feel really unadorned. So it's like you're approaching both this part and Honey Bee, and then I think it's, is it less on this one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And – [37:08] I'm like, okay, so there's a aesthetic choice here that's similar, but different sentiments. And I wonder how you think about the pairing of the sentiment of the emotion of the lyric with the production choices. And how do you know when it's time to deliver the restrain thing? And when it's time to be like, we're going straight to the new wave or we're going straight to the pop. Yeah. Dan and I love to like. [37:33] throw shit at the wall and i think also this record the feeling of like being like intoxicated with love for someone it feels very rich and like orchestral and like honeybee there's so much in there there's like a choir and there's a you know string section and there's this like beautiful like piano in it and there's just so much it's like feels really rich and because that's how it felt at the time you know what i mean that's what felt to be in love i think a song like less um [37:58] was added obviously later in the album making process. And I think, I think, yeah, it was us trying to practice a little bit of restraint. We were also trying to practice a little bit of restraint with the last song. And we were like, no, I need to, this needs a big bridge. That's cigarette. I can't do it. I can't do it. That one is produced by a lot of production. Yeah, there's no restraint. We talked about the new wave influence here. And I wonder on these songs, on the piano ballads, essentially,

[38:28] upbeat songs yeah i was talking to um you guys know wiseblood yeah she's so great and she uh sang on snl with me yeah i'm just a huge fan and beautiful harmonies beautiful she's one of the greatest voices she's angelic beautiful wonderful person um but i was talking to her about it and she just turned in a new record she's like it's so funny i like tried so much different stuff and tried to like explore so much and you just like always go back to like what you're good at at the end of the day sometimes too which i think that there was just a part of me i was like i just [38:58] that's like classic and that's like sort of my sensibilities sometimes and I love exploring and doing other stuff but like that's sort of um yeah. [39:06] Like 12 year old Olivia fell in love with songwriting for songs like that. And so, um, I really liked that one. I think that was maybe the first song on the album, honeybee. And, um, um, [39:18] It was like one of those ideas is just like at home and I like wrote the whole thing on piano and just thought like, wow, like I feel like I really expressed something that was so hard to describe. And. [39:26] And in the context of the album, I find it to be actually the saddest song on the album. I find it to actually be devastating, which is really... You Seem Pretty Sad for a Girl, So in Love, to a T. It's this like... [39:37] it's this love song that's filled with so much hope but also like a sort of knowing you know you're right exactly it's like it's the there's the music playing in the background very softly exactly the crash is on the other side but yeah it takes me back to even pre-Driver's License your first big song for high school musical the musical the series All I Want all I want is love that lasts is all I want too much to ask and that's one of these

[40:07] very yearning, extreme piano ballads. Who... [40:12] songs like that were you playing on the piano when you were 12 and 13 and a kid like yeah when you wanted to just belt and yearn and feel i'm feeling apple was always my like yearner piano queen i got really into tori amos while i was making guts because i felt like she was like a piano yearner but it also felt like edgy and rock yeah i love her yeah i felt punk on the piano um [40:35] I was really into the Dresden Dolls, too. Like, that was punk piano. Yeah, sure. There's something that I'll always love about just, like, a... [40:41] Plain old piano song like that. I just feel like it's from the heart singer songwriter type of vibe. Uh, [40:47] Yeah. [40:49] I'm Paul Tenorio. I cover soccer for The Athletic. And I'm Amy Lawrence. I cover football for The Athletic. Whatever you call it, the biggest competition in the sport is happening right now. And The Athletic's World Cup coverage has everything you need to follow the tournament. There's 48 countries taking part from the tiny island of Curacao to the five-time champions Brazil. Even if you don't know your offside from your onside, if you're eager to know more about the teams, the matches, all the stories on and off the pitch, we've got you sorted. [41:19] who's already up early every weekend, waking the neighbors when your favorite club scores. We'll make sure you get equipped with more information, more insight than anyone you know. We've got more than 70 obsessive reporters on the ground, covering the ins and outs from every game. I almost forgot to mention the best part, Amy. Free access to the Athletics World Cup coverage in our app. Download the Athletic app and see you there.

[41:46] What is your guys' favorite song on the record? Can I be the narcissist? No. Yeah, of course. [41:51] How do you say me plus you equals heart? How do you say that? How would you say it? I don't know. I haven't been talking about it a lot. Probably me plus you. Me plus you. We'll call it me plus you. I think me plus you. Or is it you plus me? It's you plus me. You plus me. See, I don't even know. I don't even know. All right. You plus me. We'll call it you plus me. Equals. Equals greater than three. Heart. Something. I don't know. We're going to have to do it. [42:16] workshop this the lyric is you plus me forever yeah i think it's a masterpiece i really do i i wrote that in my notes i'm not just saying it to you it's very cranberries to me a little six pence on the richer it's like that that jangly 90s you know i just i think it has it both has that line in the bridge that i mentioned earlier that i love that i think is the greatest away [42:46] You put the quotes that when you're really. Or the Drake quotes. If there were Drake quotes at the time. That to me. And I just think it has a great build and energy. Yeah, that's far and away my favorite on there. You weren't expecting that? That's never been anyone's favorite. You're the first person who said that to me. I'm really excited about that. What are other people's favorites? What's your, well, I mean, I'll tell you mine, but what's yours? Okay. [43:08] She said Honey Bee. I love Honey Bee also on the Cure. Okay, but I'm sorry. Respond to Joe's outlier choice. We almost cut that one from the other one. No, come on. Are you actually serious? Yeah, it was one of the first we made, and you know how you just always like the song that you made. Yeah, sure. That makes sense. Yeah, I... No, carve our names into the car seat leather as the owner of a very nice car. Do you know how stressful I found that line? And I was like, look, maybe in my 20s. I've seen someone scratch 20s.

[43:38] 50s do not touch the car seat. Do not do that. Yeah, I know. I'm not. Oh, that's wild that you were thinking of even cutting. That's insane. Yeah, that's so nice to me. OK, so begged. Yeah. Um. [43:53] You Plus Me, Honey Bee, and Drop Dead. Okay. And Begged. Wow, that's so funny. You guys give opposite answers than everyone else in my camp. That's really interesting. Wow, what are we hearing behind the scenes? What are the hits? What are the fan favorites? Everyone loves The Cure the most. I mean, The Cure is obviously a great song. It's a centerpiece. But when I was listening to it in the context of the album, I was like, this makes the most sense in the context of the entire album. [44:23] thread from A to B. And [44:26] But in these micro moments, and also I love, like, I love a wailing ass. Hell yeah. I love a wailing ass. You know, but like, even the turn of phrase. I mean, you know, I wrote down a bunch of different lyrics. Even the turn of phrase on Begged. [44:38] Nothing's quite enough when I know that to get it, [44:41] I bet. And just the sophistication of that sentiment, the understanding that just because you may have gotten something, it doesn't mean that it was the thing that you thought you were chasing. And the fact that you actually might be like you might have invented the salute, like you might have invented it out of thin air and then it wasn't actually real because you were sort of forcing it. Yeah, no, I think incredibly sophisticated thought process. Yeah, I think that's the difference also between like an album like.

[45:09] sour in this album like when you're in a relationship that's deeper and you're older and it's more nuanced it's less like fuck you for doing this to me like it's like oh i think that song was like oh yeah this happened because i set this up and like you fell short but i didn't really you never promised that you were going to do that and like it's like a it's definitely more nuanced take than i feel like i had the emotional capacity to write about before sure um and so yeah that song is that song is really special to me that it's very yeah i found it to be very [45:39] Like just like very emotionally savvy. And I think, you know, like obviously as people who cover music extensively and just like I feel like, you know, you feel like you get to a point where you're like, I've heard every metaphor. I've heard every detail. And then someone has a turn of phrase and you're like, oh, I didn't hear that one. So that was a great moment for me. Oh, thank you. I'm interested in your development as a lyricist. And how has your lyric writing changed between albums two and three versus between albums one and two? [46:09] in writing a love song. Like, I think that was a daunting task for me, someone who was very known for writing breakup songs and being angry and sad. And people love that. And there obviously is that weird like singer's curse thing where you're like, do people only like me when I'm sad? You know what I mean? And so that was, I think that was the, the challenges of trying to write something about being happy and also making it interesting. And also I think it was just like a thing that I wanted to prove to myself that I didn't have to be miserable to write a song that I liked.

[46:39] were like less valid than sad songs? I mean, when I was a teenager, for sure. Like when you're a teenager, that's the shit that you listen to because you're so depressed. You know what I mean? But I... [46:50] I love, I mean, as I get older, I think, like, writing a beautiful love song. Some of them, my favorite love songs are fucking devastating. Right. Like, Love Song by The Cure is, like, this, like, [47:00] However far away, I will always love you however long I say it. [47:05] I will always love you. Kill me. That's so sad and so beautiful. Yeah. It was just me trying to write lyrics in a more mature way about love that weren't so black and white. You know? Like, all of these things can exist at once. You can be in love and also feel insecure, and you can be in love and also feel depressed, and you can, you know, break up with someone and still, like, love that. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's just all of these things can be true at once. [47:30] Obviously, as a teenager, you don't have the... [47:33] emotional like capacity to really internalize that. And so obviously it wasn't reflected in the albums, but, um, [47:40] So I think that that was the challenge lyrically. Do you look forward to the day when you can look back at this album and this time in your life and say, oh, 24-year-olds also maybe don't know that much about themselves or the world? Is that exciting to you that eventually even like this where you do feel – I'm going to be like, I'm so stupid and naive. No, I mean like it's that – do you think the heads out? I know. I can't believe. No, I'm not trying to call you out.

[48:10] in your 30s or 40s or later, you'll probably look at your 20s similarly. Like, is that something you look forward to that self-knowledge? Hell yeah. I'm so excited about it. It's a really interesting thing to have. [48:24] So much of your... [48:25] emotional, whatever, like... [48:28] like, uh, chronicles. It's insane. I can't even imagine. All I have is blogs and tweets and articles, but not to the level of detail that you do. And the fact that, [48:41] all of those feelings along the way of yours have meant so much to other people that they will live on long beyond when you stop feeling them. It's really beautiful. It's a very unique job you have. It's a very unique thing. I'm very, very lucky. I still to this day don't. [48:59] always understand how I like got so lucky. Like, and that sounds like I'm like, I think I'm not like trying to demean myself. I think I'm talented and I work hard, but like going to a show and like looking out into the audience and seeing all of these like girls who are like nine years old, like crying to these songs and so deeply touches them and is so clearly like affecting their life in a way that I could have never, ever imagined. It's just such a, it's a really, really wild thing [49:29] I can't – I'm not, like, masterminding it. It just is, like, this beautiful human connection, and I just feel so lucky that I get it in such a potent form in my job. And I just feel very, very grateful, and I hope that I can, like –

[49:43] keep being a positive thing in girls' lives like that. It's something that I think about a lot. Speaking of that... [49:49] audience and the platform that you have, I think one thing that separates your generation of pop star, even from the one that immediately precedes it, is like your comfort being explicitly political and using that stage to speak to [50:03] young, impressionable fans who care about what you say. You know, you memorably spoke out when Roe v. Wade was overturned. You've since come out against ICE. You've spoken about Gaza. Have you received any pushback behind the scenes? Anybody telling you that that's a risk to your business to use [50:26] that stage and the audience you have to espouse what are in this day and age, sometimes controversial views? Honestly, I feel like I'm surrounded with people who are very like-minded and I really appreciate that. No one has ever been like, don't do that. No. And I always say like, I am, I really try to stay educated on things. Like I, I make a conscious effort to try my very best because I think that's important for everyone, but I don't know everything. I don't, I couldn't list a bunch [50:56] like, but [50:57] I am an artist and like what I do for my job is like, this is how I feel. And I present it to people. And like, I think it would just be disingenuous to be like, I don't feel heartbroken about [51:08] what's going on in Gaza. You know what I mean? Like, that's just like, as an artist, I feel like that's just what you do. And, um,

[51:15] That's my job. But I don't know. I also feel really weird taking like credit being like, yeah, I'm so like I always feel like I could be doing more and saying more and stuff like that. So it's a it's, you know, I don't know. Was it something like that sort of purity of purpose and desire to speak your truth in a variety of ways, whether it's emotional or social, political? Is that something that comes from your household? Is it something that comes from, you know, did something where you're around a bunch of people in your teenage years who really encourage that in you? [51:45] back to its origin. Where do you think that it came from? Because you've been doing it. This isn't something you arrived at this year. This is something you've been doing for basically the entire time that you've been very famous. And usually that's exactly the stretch time that people don't do it. So what do you think was happening to you in the years prior to that, that gave you the sort of sense of self to be able to do that? Yeah, really interesting question. Honestly, it's gonna make me emotional, but my parents are awesome. And my parents never made [52:15] made me feel like I was being too much or too emotional or oversharing. And I think I grew up in a household where like me being outspoken and performing and saying what I believe in and like being ambitious was like just so supported. And I think my parents, I have the most wonderful parents in the world. I was a child actor, which is really crazy because my parents are like the least stage parent-y parents you've ever met in your whole life. But it just like bred, I think, a sense of like ambition in me and like wanting to express myself and like do things. And

[52:45] hopefully be a positive influence on something or someone. I don't know. But I don't know. I think I owe that to them. They really always made me feel like I could do anything or say what was on my mind without feeling ashamed. And so there is in your mind a moral component to being an artist. If you're going to be a person who has a voice, who has sway, who has influence, you think that some degree of responsibility – [53:11] kind of comes with that. Yeah, I think it's just a job. I don't even know if I would say like, it's your responsibility to like step up. But I just think it's like, it's the same way that I talk about how I'm sad about a breakup on her song. It's like the same. It's the same thing. It's the same emotion. It's just like maybe expressed in a different medium. Most recently, there was some internet detective work, as there always is around you. People claiming that you [53:41] moral and political reasons or is that an overread? [53:44] Oh, gosh. [53:48] I just, I'm not really a fashion girl. Really. I'm not a fashion girl. Can I just say, also can I just say candidly, many people who attend the Met Gala are not fashion people, and you know who you are, and I know who you are. Oh, yeah. Go on. [54:05] Gosh, how do I choose my words wisely? [54:09] I just... I think I've... [54:14] This is my third album. I don't feel like I need to do things that don't bring me joy or inspire me or feel me or feel aligned with my values or something like that. It's not as fun or exciting anymore. What's fun or exciting is talking to you guys or making a song that I really love or make a music video that I think is cool.

[54:44] cool and I, I, um, and not a setback. Like, cause I know in the, in the first waves of fame, you're just like, I want to say yes to everything. Like, I'll come again. Yeah. Like literally like a new, there are doors behind the doors. I didn't even know where doors that I could open, but now that you've seen the doors, there's just, there's no, like plenty of doors. Yeah. I mean, and it's, it's sometimes it's fun and sometimes it's exciting, but sometimes I just, I don't know. I feel like what's really fun and cool is like making stuff that I like and hanging out with my friends who really know me. I [55:14] Speaking of internet detective work, there's a lot of sort of public speculation about your relationship with Taylor. Ongoing speculation that the Disney alum and the heiress tour performer are not in friendly terms. Taylor was retroactively credited on one of Olivia's biggest hits, Deja Vu. [55:31] due to an apparent interpolation of Taylor's song Cruel Summer. You're at a Paul McCartney concert in Los Angeles, and you guys are walking out at the same time, and then there's people on the internet being like, are they facing each other? Are they facing what? I wonder how stuff like that strikes you, given that I imagine you know how you feel, and you know the state of play. How do you view that layer of scrutiny? Yeah, I don't know. I don't really, like, read too far into it. I think it, like, comes to the territory, and it's par for the course. [56:01] I think if I... [56:03] dove into every internet detective sleuth that like got things right or wrong about my life or any of my relationship I think I just go crazy like there's just not enough time in the day yeah I think maybe it started at such a high level for you around driver's license that anything after that for sure you were like you went through it you went through people trying to figure out who is this song about and why and was that

[56:27] nice to get that out of the way early. Maybe it wasn't nice to go through. I do think so. I think it made me... [56:34] feel detached from it. I had to detach from it in order to like literally like be okay. It was just such a, such a crazy experience for like everyone involved. And, um, I, I, [56:44] Yeah, I think I just had to learn to detach. And I think that that's something that I hopefully am good at these days, still trying to detach from people who don't know every little detail of my life. I think you just have to, otherwise you just go kind of crazy. I also think there can be value in... [57:01] someone like you setting the record straight or saying what you really feel about something when people are trying to guess how you feel. You know, one of the other things you've been a lightning rod over, you know, bringing back a conversation from 2025 more years ago is like the idea of the baby doll dress and what it means to Riot Grrrl and what it means to [57:22] to dress subversively or other people who say, no, no, it's infantilizing or it's played out as a symbol. Like that's making me so upset. Not even for me. Like, I don't care. People can. What does it mean to you? What does that? What was really disturbing is I feel like I actually wear I have worn outfits that are like maybe revealing on stage. Like I've been on stage in like a sparkly bra and like little shorts and like, which is my right. That's fun. I felt cool and comfortable in that. [57:52] but me fully covered up in a dress that people deemed to be childlike was inappropriate. And I just think it...

[57:58] it just shows how we just really normalize pedophilia in our culture. And also... [58:05] It's just this rhetoric that we're fed as girls since we're so little, which is like, don't wear that because then a man is going to sexualize your body and it's your fault. It's so weird. And I didn't think that I looked sexy in that at all. I was like, this is so cool. I feel like I'm like Kathleen Hanna or like Courtney Love, all these people who are my heroes. And I felt cool and comfortable in it. [58:35] crazy thing like that. Like I just, I just think it's like losing the plot a little bit. [58:39] I'm just very protective of younger women and girls, and I don't ever want them to be big fed that rhetoric, I guess. And also protect their right as they grow up to do whatever it is, whatever it ends up being. It's like a weird cult. It's like, yeah, you shouldn't be responsible for some guy sexualizing you in a way that was never your intention. One thing that I was curious about listening to this album, you talked about girls in your audience seeing nine-year-olds, ten-year-olds cry. [59:09] What do you want people to actually take away from the album? Are you telling them a story about a romantic relationship? Are you telling them a story about emotional development? Are you just making songs you hope people sing along to? What's the thing? Like, obviously, the finished product is a collection of songs. Yeah. But... [59:27] There's more. What do you want those girls to listen to on the day it comes out to listen to? What do you want them to feel and think?

[59:35] Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I want them to like kind of be along for the ride in the story because this is a story. It's like the beginning, a middle and an end. I think like. [59:45] The goal for any piece of work for me would be, like, to provide some sense of, like, emotional catharsis. I think that would be amazing. Yeah. Or some sort of, like, understanding or – I don't know. I just feel like growing up, if I heard a song that spoke to me, I was like, oh, yeah, that's how I feel, and it helps me better understand myself and the way I feel around, I don't know, insert issue here. You know, I think that that's the dream, and I would love it if that was somebody's takeaway. Yeah. [1:00:15] more one-on-one, not simply like in an arena or in a stadium. What do you hear in those conversations, like the sort of micro moments? Like what are you hearing from those girls? Yeah, it's so sweet. I mean... [1:00:27] especially like the young girls yeah yeah that's sort of i mean i love that and i think like sometimes i don't know if you live in like oh you don't you want to like lean into your older audience or something like that's so cool that like an eight-year-old girl finds like my song to be moving like that is like the most special thing ever like i remember being eight years old and listening to music and it just meant so much to me and the fact that i could like maybe be a semblance of that for someone is so exciting and i know i just think that like people like

[1:00:57] girls who like have never held the boy's hand and they're like, traitor is my favorite song. Like my friend at school changed friend groups and it like devastated me. And it's like, that is their whole, like it like turns their whole life on its head. And it's like, so cool to like watch them process all those feelings. And, and also in an environment like a concert where it feels like this communal processing of, of emotions. I, um, I, [1:01:21] I watched this documentary the other day called, like, it's called Spirits in the Forest. Have you guys watched it? I don't know. It's about Depeche Mode. Oh, wow. It's about Depeche Mode, but it's not even, it's not a concert film about, it's like, doesn't have anything really to do with the members of Depeche Mode. It's like these five people who are huge Depeche Mode fans, and it follows their life leading up to, like, the last Depeche Mode concert in, like, Berlin or something. Oh, wow. Gotta check that out. It'd be a good idea. It's so beautiful, and it's just about, like, how going to a concert is not even about, [1:01:51] wearing, couldn't metal eyes. It's like these people and the stories that they bring to this concert. Like one of the women who the documentary talked about, she like hit her head or something and she woke up and she didn't remember anything about her life. Didn't remember where she was, didn't remember her name, didn't remember her husband's name, but she remembered every single Depeche Mode lyric. And when I woke up, I didn't remember anything of my former life, except one thing, which is Depeche Mode. Like how incredible is that? Sounds like a Daily Mail story. [1:02:21] A good one. Yeah, they're all good. That's wild. That's incredible. You guys should watch it. No, we will. Stuff like that, it's like...

[1:02:31] It's just so cool that I get to... [1:02:33] play a show or do something and all these people bring their own experiences of my songs to this show and we all share it together like like it kind of doesn't like i feel like the concept is it's like 75 of what makes the concert great is the audience maybe even more maybe it's like 80 it's like that's the number one musical instrument or like cool thing like that does all the talking for you and you've become this bard of girlhood and you talk about the influence of sofia coppola [1:03:03] subject and a muse for her as well. And you mentioned these, this peanut gallery idea of like, oh, don't you want to speak to your older audience? You know, you look at, [1:03:14] what Sofia Coppola has done and she did the virgin suicides decades ago and she's still telling that story in Priscilla from a different angle. Do you feel like – [1:03:27] that's ever a subject that you will have to let go of and move on from as, as you age and mature, or do you think it could remain a forever theme for you? I mean, [1:03:40] I don't know. I guess I don't come into my album being like, this is girlhood. I think I just try to be like, this is where I'm at right now. And I think that just maybe is girlhood because I feel like a girl. I'm 23, so I guess I'm a woman now. But yeah. [1:03:57] I don't know. I just think there's something beautiful about this shared experience that we all have. And even something like Driver's License was a really special experience on so many levels. But that song meant so much to me because it was about my experience, but also it just...

[1:04:12] like united other people in their own experience of like a first heartbreak or something like that i think whatever whatever experience people if it's if it's girlhood if it's something else like if whatever they attach whatever meaning they attach the song i would be happy with there's one line that jumped out at me on this album because i i think on earlier songs and earlier [1:04:42] and he's delivering you a line or a bit. And then you have this awakening that like, [1:04:47] He's delivered the line of the bit. Right. And then that's that moment of like, wait a minute. Like that's that's practice. That's rehearsed. But then there's a line on this album where you say, all my ex-boyfriends have heard these lines. You call yourself out. Right. But I was like, but to pick up on Joe's question about sort of girlhood is a topic and maturity and how songwriting evolves. I heard that line and I was like. [1:05:12] Oh, like this feels like just the tiniest suggestion of leaving some of that other energy behind and saying like, I do it too. I do it too. Is that, am I right to pick up on that as like a theme in that song and also maybe broadly speaking on this album? Yeah. It's like what we were saying before. I think like the album hopefully is my most nuanced approach to a relationship. And like it's, you know, a real relationship where two people like know each other and like, [1:05:41] love each other deeply isn't like well be who or mean to me that one time there's just so much i've been full you're just like learning about yourself and like your shortcomings and like the ways in which you have failed or have like you know or sabotaging certain aspects of the relationship like i think hopefully that there are moments in the record where i kind of acknowledge my own um part and maybe some like negative parts of the relationship yeah of course

[1:06:11] I love holding up that mirror to yourself, being comfortable playing something like a villain or calling yourself out for it. [1:06:20] Also very Sex and the City. It got, in prepping for this, it got us. We did it. Did you guys watch Sex and the City for a few months? Oh, no, but we've watched it a hundred times. I mean, I've watched it a hundred times. Countless, countless amount of times, but it did cause us in a meeting to go around and do who we were. Okay, wait, tell me who you guys are. You want to guess? [1:06:38] Wait, is it like one of the girls? Yes. We kept this to the core point. We need to do men later. I've heard people be like, I'm magged. I'm like, girl, get out of here. But we did a main and a riser. Okay, I think you're... [1:06:53] I think you're a Charlotte main. Wow. Into Carrier Rising. You think I'm a little uptight? Wow. No. Damn, son. That's interesting. John, I think accurately, this is actually a twist, that I'm a Miranda with a dash of Samantha. With a dash of Samantha. And John is actually the kid. Wait, let her guess. Let her guess. [1:07:16] It's okay. You can get it wrong. It's totally fine. You don't know. Yeah, like that. There's no wrong answer except all the wrong answers. I know. I know. [1:07:23] I love it. I love to see it. I know you're really on the spot. This is the hardest part of the conversation. [1:07:30] I'm going to say Carrie with the Dash of Samantha. Very close. Okay. I'm actually, I feel like I'm a Carrie with Charlotte. Okay. Which is, is that not what you identify as? Yeah. No, I think I'm a Charlotte with Carrie. Charlotte. Yeah.

[1:07:45] And this was instructive because sometimes the answer that I might arrive at myself is, [1:07:49] maybe it's a little bombastic. But as they arrived at it for me, John felt good. Obviously a carry. John is obviously a carry. A derogatory? With all the complications that entails. Unbelievable. With all the complications. Yes. Okay. Yes. Fine. Should we hit a couple questions in our lightning round? Whatever, man. I love this. That's the best part. It's groundbreaking journalism. I love it. [1:08:19] You have to build lore. Totally. We're building lore. I have a custom Sex and the City shirt that I meant to wear today that I did not. It's a one-of-one made for me by a very dear friend, and I'm very sad I forgot to wear it today. I love that. I love that. I have a few, like, you know how, like, cast and crew gets, like, a thing at the wrap. I have a few Sex and the City wrap stuff. I don't know how I got it. Like, from eBay? Oh, very cool. Yeah, from eBay. Maybe it's fake. I don't know. I still wear it with pride. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [1:08:47] All right, so 52 cards in the Popcast deck. Each one corresponds to a pre-written question. Some are deep, some are shallow, and we'll see where the fate takes you. [1:08:59] Thank you. [1:09:00] This is so fun. Thanks for having me, you guys. No, this is a dream. What do you got? Okay, I got two of diamonds. Two of diamonds. Or two of sparkles, as I say. Nice. Okay, okay. Two of sparkles? Yeah. Okay, again, we continue to learn that people's relationship to playing cards is beyond... I didn't even know you could have unusual relationships to playing cards. You guys, no, I have the most unusual... I love playing cards so much. What? I travel with four playing cards on me at all times because I have a game... Four decks? Yeah, four decks.

[1:09:30] me a Bottega carrying case for my card. Just for your cards? It's like so bougie because I don't go anywhere without my cards. We gotta get you a Popcast deck. We're gonna mail you a Popcast deck. I would love that. What games do you play? I play this game called Cambio that's like I think golf called golf in other places. And then this game called Nerds I really like that's like multiple player solitaire. You're like deep cutting card games. No go fish for me. Wow. No war. I also love solitaire. Like I'm trying to be on my phone less and so if I'm like having that age I'll just play solitaire. Wow. [1:10:00] Can I just briefly identify myself as an older person? [1:10:04] Does the name, the game, Egyptian Ratscrew mean anything? Oh, yeah, I've heard of that. Big in my school. Summer New Camp, Egyptian Ratscrew champion. Wow, we're going to play. Me and you after this. I was killing it. I was annihilating the older kids. It was a great time in my life. Like one of my early highlights. It was a great moment. All right, two of Sparkles. Two of Sparkles. I might just refer them as Sparkles from now on. Okay, this is a tough one. Some of these are light. Some of these are hard. This is a tough one, I would say. What is the most difficult thing? [1:10:34] that's happened to you in your personal life that your career prevented you from dealing with properly? Oh, my God. That's the deepest question. A couple of people have pulled this. It's been it's been quite revealing.

[1:10:51] I've led a very charmed life. I haven't had anything really awful happen. [1:10:57] Um... [1:10:58] Thank you. [1:11:00] I think this is like in no way what was me, but I think I feel really sad that I didn't really have a childhood. Well, that's, I mean, basically huge anecdotal. Like what was me? You were on Disney. You were busy. It's fine. I'm totally okay. But yeah, I was. Yeah, that's the answer. That's the answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little sad. [1:11:21] Is it a persistent kind of like low grade, low hum? Yeah. Something you think about a lot, but not maybe at intense spikes, but it's kind of always like hovering. Yeah, it does. [1:11:33] It reveals itself in certain ways over time. Types of interactions, types of relationships. It's just a push and pull. I live one of the most amazing life, and I get to travel the world and have all these incredible experiences and talk to cool guys like you. But I didn't ever – I wasn't in high school. I didn't have a good group of friends in high school. I was just going to say, was it tough to form friendships? Super hard. And it is even hard, I think, for me. [1:12:03] my life and then maybe like in some like social areas i'm like a little behind yeah sure um just because i i was i'm a homeschooled only child like it was very lonely like upbringing and uh i think that's why i like wrote so many songs too is it made me feel less alone yeah and um [1:12:18] yeah, it made me feel understood. And yeah, it's all good. It's all good. No, no, but it's also, even if it's not all good, it's great that you have the perspective. You know, it's not, it's not something you're going to wake up 10 years from now and be like, damn, I never thought about that. You're in acting real bad. Yeah, I think that actually leads me back to something I feel on this album, which is like you're clear-eyed about not being clear-eyed sometimes. And that's a, that's a cool place to be. Yeah. Clear-eyed about not being clear-eyed. I like that. Next album. Okay.

[1:12:48] Okay. Nine of clovers. [1:12:51] Again, amazing. I learn something every week on the show. Clovers and sparkles. Clovers and sparkles. [1:13:01] What sparks your jealousy? [1:13:04] Oh, my God. You're pulling the hard ones. I know. I mean, listen to the album. You'll see it. Yeah, right. [1:13:16] Mm-hmm. [1:13:17] I don't know. I mean, like, romantic jealousy is definitely a thing that I talk about in, like, all three albums. It definitely gets, like, less all-encompassing, though, as I get older. What about non-romantic jealousy? Yeah, like, just a really nice bag or a pair of shoes. Or just, like, interpersonal jealousy. I mean, I get jealous of people's songs all the time. Like, not in a way where I'm like, oh, I don't like you. But, like, that's also a really great feeling to, like, hear someone's song and be like, God, I wish I wrote that. For some people, jealousy is very animating. [1:13:47] No, I'm Chelsea. Really a good motivator. Really a great motivator. It's like an indicator that this is what I want. This is what deep down I desire. That's real spilt. Yeah? That's real spilt. All right, pull another card. Maybe I'll get a less intense one. I know. Oh, my God. It's the hard hitters. All right. Okay, Ace of Clovers. [1:14:04] This is easier. What are you good at besides what you do for a living? Oh, that's a good question. [1:14:13] It's hard. Cards, apparently. Cards. I'm really good at cards. You're the first person to say they have four decks on hand at all times. Yeah, what else? Secret talent. I'm really good at cards. I'm really good at yoga.

[1:14:25] I really got into it last tour because I was really stressed, and now I'm really good and I can do tricks and stuff. You're SkyTang, Adrian, who's your... Yeah, I do love yoga with Adrian. [1:14:39] You can do the thing where you hold yourself on the hands and your legs are jutting out. That's great dancing. [1:14:46] I've seen your videos. I don't know if I can do that quite yet. A girl can dream. Yeah, I love that. [1:14:55] I think I'm a good friend. Damn. I think I'm a good friend. You really just upended the question. I try hard to be a good friend. Damn, you really just rewrote the question in real time. It's unbelievable. It's like in a job interview when they're like, what's your greatest weakness? You're like, I work too hard. I know. Have you ever had a job interview? [1:15:11] No, I've never had like a regular job, which is sad. You've had auditions. Yeah, I just had auditions. I think I'm a good friend. Wild. Incredible answer. I couldn't even anticipate that. I'm supporting it. Really good. All right. Two more cards and then we'll get the deranged snack combo. Yeah, I'm so excited. [1:15:29] Seven of spades. Seven of spades. That's a good one. You read your own DMs. Do I read my own DMs? Yeah. Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah, I do. [1:15:41] Um... [1:15:42] You go into the extra mailboxes? You go into the second and the third one? To see what the action's like? I'll go into the verified. But you do. The team's not outsourced to the team. Yeah, no, I read your DMs. You have the password. You read your DMs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're a digital native. Yeah, yeah. I was born in 2003. I know what's up. Yeah. Do you find it to be overwhelming?

[1:16:04] that people have that direct, especially, you know, so much going on. People have direct access to you. Like, do you wish to, do you like ever brick your phone? Do you ever like put it under the couch and be like, not for two hours? Yeah. I delete Instagram and TikTok off of my phone all the time. I'm like never on Twitter or like Reddit or any of that stuff. That's scary. Sure. But, um, I just deleted it all the time, but it's hard. It really is tough. The social media addiction, it really is real. And it like fragments my days and fragments my attention span. And like, [1:16:34] Only thing I'm addicted to. Pull one more card. Yay. Okay. Finale. [1:16:41] Okay. Ten of Clovers. All right. Is that a poker hand? Is that like – Not quite, right? Okay. This is a good one. This is also – it's in between serious and light. When's the last time something did not go your way career-wise and how did you cope with it? [1:17:01] Oh, wow. I don't like talking about when things don't go well. I like just glossing over anything that no one notices. You can talk about the cope first. You know... [1:17:12] I've made so many... [1:17:14] mistakes or things I look back on like, Oh God, that was so not me or like whatever. But I really do think, and I'm not even like having a cop out answer. I think that when you look back at any artist career, I think that the cream really rises to the top. You know what I mean? Like you don't, all of my favorite artists have put out bad songs or like done things or that are like not great or whatever. It's saying a bad note or whatever. I think, I think, I think,

[1:17:39] Pound for pound, I'm like proud of my work. And so I think at the end of the day, that's hopefully what people will remember. It's funny you say that because sometimes I feel like when I get flack for being a critic and they're like, how could you say a negative thing about blank? And I say to them, I'm like, who's your favorite artist? And they'll say whoever it is. And I'm like, every song they've ever made is perfect. No. True. Every song you liked as a 10-year-old you still love? No. Right. You have all these like touch points. Like we're all critics. Everybody views the world that way. [1:18:09] way to think about this kind of thing. It's like... And I think like my mistakes in the past have like led me to where I am now. And like nothing teaches you who you are better than doing something that's like, ooh, that felt really bad. You know what I mean? Like that really informs... [1:18:22] everything they do after that and so i'm like i'm happy to have have made mistakes and like done things that are maybe a cranger made a song that wasn't that good like it happens and it's all it's all part of a cool life and you're less self-conscious about that stuff now than you might have been you know sour era yeah i think also i mean my last two records i was like i made them when i was like 17 and 19 so i'm like no it's like i did the best of what i could at the time and like with the people that i had around me at the time and and so yeah i i don't [1:18:52] stuff a lot. They used to be really, really harsh. And something I think shifted in me a little bit where I'm like, [1:18:58] How awesome that I get to make music and feel connected to other people and make music for things that I think are cool and talk about things that are important to me. That's awesome. I think coming at that from a place of joy is just the only way you can really do it. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, it's awesome. Music is awesome. It's a genuine gift that we animate our lives.

[1:19:28] influences and people who are your heroes and what you're trying to live up to. And not all artists are like that. Some people are very stingy with giving credit or citing influence. And I think you've remained open hearted about that, but it's come back to bite you a couple times in terms of songwriting credits or album covers or people trying to call you out for [1:19:58] you [1:19:59] How have you pushed through that, those what I assume were pretty hard times in – [1:20:05] your creative vision being called into question and how do you remain in [1:20:11] open with what it is that inspires you when stuff like that has happened. Yeah. I think it's a really hard time, like just personally, but, um, I don't know. I, I, [1:20:23] I'm a fangirl. I love music and like nobody can like take that away. That's so cheesy. But like I love music and I feel so... [1:20:35] lucky that I get to do what I do. And I like love so many songs. And, you know, I've grown up being surrounded with awesome music and awesome bands. And like, I, I truly just [1:20:47] do feel so lucky and I love writing songs and like that's just I'll I would be writing songs if nobody listened and everyone hated it and everyone thought I was bad I would still be writing songs because it's what I like love to do but I like that you call yourself a fangirl because I feel like some artists especially at your level are like

[1:21:03] ashamed to identify themselves that way you gotta be a fan what's it's so boring not be a fan of music there's so much good music to be a fan of yeah and it's like but you weave it into your songwriting probably you know just like the act of being enthusiastic about music is often in your songs a proxy for the act of being enthusiastic about a person yeah yeah i mean i think to joe's point like i i do think people wonder those things that were tough for you early in your career did that leave a frost between you and other songwriters is there a frost between you and [1:21:33] Like, is that something that hovers over your mind? Is it something that you think is a construction of the people who are doing Internet detective work? How do you view that now that you're a few years removed from the initial the initial kind of like ruptures? [1:21:49] Um, I don't know. I think I tried to not let it get to me or upset me. I think I just try to keep it trucking. I think there's no use so long ago. I think there's no use in like hopping on it. Um, yeah. [1:22:05] And, um... [1:22:07] Yeah, I just... [1:22:09] try to make songs that I love and try to be kind and good to other people and supportive of other people. And I've always tried to be like that. And at the end of the day, I think that's that's all you can do. And being supportive is like, again, I was looking at the opening act list for your tour. And I was like, this is like a very wide range of styles of artists. But also it's like you're identifying people you want to take on your wing a little bit, maybe. Yeah. Sort of safe to say. Yeah. I mean.

[1:22:36] I'm just like huge fans of all the people that are opening for me. I like, and, and friends too. And, um, so, um, [1:22:43] Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I could sit here and be like, yeah, give them advice and blah, blah, blah. But I feel like we're all just flying by the seat of our pants and all just like taking what comes when it comes and – [1:22:56] yeah yeah i don't know people always would tell ask me that it's like are you giving chapel advice i'm like bubble and i'm like no like she's giving me advice like it's like we're all just like figuring it out as it comes in the chat to be like yeah have you done this happened but to the fangirl thing it's cool that you've done that backwards and forwards you've taken the breeders out on the road you know you've you've put your you've put on your heroes and given them [1:23:26] That's been an important. Yeah. I mean, it's not calculated like, oh, God, they're going to look cool or something like that. I just like love all those bands and love all those artists. And I'm like so stoked that I get to be around them and hear them play. The Breeders thing definitely felt radical. I remember just when that announcement came out, I was just like, why don't more people do this? It's like such an obvious idea. Yeah. In terms of like show your lineage. Yeah, exactly. And you're presenting also, especially with you with such a like a young and open eared fan base. [1:23:56] There's actually a whole universe behind me. For sure. A lot of people don't do that because I think people are anxious. I truly think people are anxious that they're going to show something to a fan, and they're going to be like, oh, actually, it's that. I like that better. And that's why people have very young artists opening for them. I mean, there's a bunch of business reasons, of course, as well.

[1:24:26] performer, like what I would actually like to show you is something that was meaningful to me. And that actually makes the whole show kind of an Olivia show because you're like, this is Olivia. This is what made me. This is what made me. And then. [1:24:39] You get to listen to that, and then you get to listen to me, and you get to actually draw the lines. And I think more people should do that. Totally. Genuinely a smart and underutilized move. Thanks. No, for real. Snack time? Are we all eating this? Oh, yes. We have to. We are all eating this. There's some bonus things. Every episode of PopCast ends with a snack. Olivia Rodrigo walked over to our snack table and picked these hers, long hots, sharp provolone. [1:25:09] a Philly classic got from Wawa last weekend. And then this leftover dip that I brought to our Super Bowl hang. I'm sorry. Wait, it's leftover? Is that expired? This is shelf stable. Should it be in the fridge? Should it be? Okay. I was like, it came from the shelf. It came from the shelf. Can you just look into it before you subject our guests to eating this? Food poisoning from PopCats. I know. I just like, I have to take a stand. I have to take a stand. It's expired. Can you smell it? It's expired. [1:25:39] Oh, is it actually? It's expired. Oh, shit. I'm sure it's fine. I don't think this really goes bad. I don't believe in expiration dates, but I will not make you eat this. I can't say I've ever had, like, dip on the shelf before. Oh, see, I love a French onion dip in a can on the shelf. No refrigeration. That's, like, one of the greatest food. Isn't that, like, dairy in this one? You would think so. They figured it out. No, they figured it out somehow. I'm not going to make you eat this. This is Doritos Cool Ranch Jalapeno.

[1:26:05] flavored dip. It smells like it should. [1:26:09] In my opinion. Yeah, it smells like Taco Bell. Smells like Taco Bell. Oh, my God. It doesn't smell bad. But I'm not going to make you eat it. I'm not going to make either of you eat it. I might try it. Try it. And if I end up in the hospital, you guys will send me flowers. I'm going to be really honest with you, man. Like, this is, this should, we should have. We're going to have hives tomorrow. We didn't think that anyone would ever pick it. It was mostly there as a distraction, but you're a sicko. Yeah, this is absolute nuts. [1:26:39] Korean snacks, Japanese snacks, British snacks, German snacks. And you. This is the flavor by Philly Crunch Off Champion Flavor Longhots and Sharp Provolone. Wow. Shout out Chris Ryan. Philly King. Shout out Zach Barron. Philly King. Carrie Batten. Carrie Batten. Nick Sylvester. We got a lot. We got a lot of Philly in our lives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel Embiid. I'm really excited. You did your best. Thank you for what you did to the Celtics. Mike Schmidt. Oh, that's that's a great smell. [1:27:09] That was a great smell. That's unlike anything I've ever tasted, to be honest. [1:27:13] It almost tastes like a peanut. [1:27:16] A little peanut shell. Oh, wow. Oh, it's tart. It's tart. Interesting. A lot of depth of flavor, and the spice comes all the way at the end. This would be really good with a sub sandwich, though. I understand. [1:27:31] Wow. Wow. Cheese steak and some of these long, hot, and sharp, pro-loan flavored. Cheese steak sprinkles them up, sprinkle them in a cheese steak. Okay. I love these. That's a little interesting. A cheese and hot pepper flavored chip is straight out of my brain. Gotta make it happen. You want some more? Yeah, I do. Yeah, go in. I do. Really good. Too spicy for you, John?

[1:27:52] No, it's actually quite right. Are you anti-spice? Yeah. I have a very tender stomach, regrettably. It's hitting in just the right way. Like, it's just the right amount of, like, pepper or whatever it is right at the back. It's fine. Guys, I've had such a good time. Oh, my God. I'll miss you. I'm going to visit you in the hospital. I'll miss you. I'm going to try this dip. I'm going to try this dip. Next episode of Popcast is bedside at the hospital. Oh. [1:28:15] Is it good? Dog, you're wild. It's fresh. You're actually wild. It's fresh. That has been here for four months. The entirety of Popcast, that's sat there. [1:28:28] I'm going to live. Do you have anything that you want to say to Joe before he goes away? Parting words. Let's rank these chips. What do you got out of ten? Okay. [1:28:37] So, [1:28:39] I'm coming back for more. Does that say anything? I feel like you're mixed in the facial reaction, but you keep coming back. I can't decide if I like it or not. I think that's why I keep coming back. It's moving in a lot of directions at once. Yeah, I can't really place it. It's almost like salad dressing tasting. It's spicy. Right, but it's sort of like in sequence. It's kind of like mealy, and then it's like, oh, it's unctuous, and then you're like, oh, it's sharp. I love a hers chip in general, though. I feel like the hers ridges are really strong. [1:29:08] One of my favorite chips all time are the hers ketchup. Ooh. Ketchup flavor is extremely good. Hard to find. But this is, I don't know. You go first. [1:29:21] I give it a hard six. Wow. Okay. But is it a good six? Like six trending upwards? Or six kind of like, I'm just trying to be nice? No. Like...

[1:29:31] Solid. Solid. Just living right there. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Six. I'm going to say it's an eight. Wow. And I'm going to say the only thing that's not working for me is, and I will say this is a hers chip and maybe even a lady's chip problem. To me, the kind of when you crunch it, the immediate mealiness of the potato, you feel it's like it has a thinness to it. It's not quite a full crunch. You like a kettle cook? [1:30:01] fighting it, but there's a heft to it. And I feel like the hers, like, they dissipate extremely quickly once you start chewing them, and then all of a sudden you're just left with, like, a layer of spice. And so that's the only part that's not working, but it is a [1:30:16] It was an adventurous ride. It was. It really was like zigzag, left, right, up, down. It's a cool trip. Shout out food science. I think I'm a seven and a half. Okay. I wish it was spicier. And I wish I had a sandwich. I wish I had a sandwich. If it was a sandwich, it'd be a nine. It's a great side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It can't exist on its own, though. Yeah. For sure. Olivia Rodrigo. First of all, Olivia Rodrigo. Thank you for being here. Thank you guys for having me. Olivia Rodrigo's on Popcast. What a blessing. Happy to have you here. Thank you so much for coming. [1:30:46] For months, years even, John has been saying, we'll see you next week. This time. I mean it. Every episode of PopCast is at NYTimes.com slash PopCast. Like and subscribe on YouTube. Follow us on TikTok and Instagram. Follow us to the Olivia Rodrigo Tour.

[1:31:02] We'll be back next week. [1:31:16] *sad music* [1:31:23] I'm Gilbert Cruz. This week on the Book Review Podcast, I talk to the author Ryan Holiday about why he nominated Cormac McCarthy's The Road as one of his top books of the 21st century. I think what the great novels do is they grow with you. Can I quote something else from the book? It's just right on what you're saying. I love it. The Road captures both the beauty and the horror of being a parent. Do not get me started on that scene. Listen to The Book Review wherever you get your podcasts.