Our Enduring Fascination With the Kennedys

[00:00] This message is brought to you by Apple Card. For a limited time, when you get a new Apple Card and purchase AirPods Pro 3 at Apple, you can earn back the cost up to $250 daily cash. New AirPods Pro and up to $250 daily cash back? Now that's music to my ears. Subject to credit approval, limitations and spend requirements apply. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at apple.co slash AirPods. [00:26] From the New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily on Sunday. [00:42] Here in Manhattan, [00:43] Downtown in the East Village, [00:45] There's this tiny Indian restaurant called Pana 2. It's a bit of a hole in the wall, [00:51] But like any restaurant that survives, [00:53] It has its charms. [00:55] For Panatou, one of those charms is that it is filled with Christmas lights. [01:00] absolutely covered. Like, imagine the most Christmas lights you could fit into a restaurant and then double or triple that. That's how many lights are in Panatou. [01:11] Panatou has been a novelty for New Yorkers for decades. We lived in the area for like a couple years, so we... [01:17] We've never been in here. [01:18] But lately, [01:19] It's been drawing a different kind of crowd. I was asking my mom, like, where should we go for dinner? And she was like, you should try, like, you know, the place that was in Love Story. [01:27] All right. [01:28] Bye. [01:28] Love Story, the fictionalized retelling of the relationship between John F. Kennedy Jr., son of a president, one of the most famous New Yorkers of the 1990s, and Carolyn Bessette, the Calvin Klein publicist,

[01:43] whose relationship with JFK Jr. vaulted her into what the show portrays as an unwelcome spotlight. In the series, JFK Jr. takes her to the unpretentious and empty Panatou on their first date. Is this your go-to date spot? Yeah. I'm a sucker for a laminated menu. The show, which ended this week, has been ascending into a real cultural moment. [02:13] phenomenon it's become. It's like a huge thing on TikTok. Like all my friends. It's what people are texting about, posting about, criticizing, loving. It's impacting fashion. It's impacting people's memories, a lot of people's parents. And suddenly, and this is according to Hulu, it is the most streamed limited series in its history. And the Cravens are the closest thing to royalty we've ever had in America. So I think this is like very impactful. It's got its own [02:43] could bring a fresh wave of business to a small Indian restaurant in Manhattan. It motivated us to finally go. I don't even care the food's not that great. Like, I just want to go for the vibes. So today, we're going to explore why the show has become so popular right now. My colleague Alexandra Jacobs, who writes about culture here at The Times, will join me to talk about nostalgia, the Kennedys, and the eternal allure of Cinderella stories. [03:12] It's Sunday.

[03:13] March 29th. [03:19] Alexandra Jacobs, welcome to The Daily. I see that you are wearing a leopard coat and big sunglasses and very simple, minimal jewelry. Did you dress, perhaps, for our conversation today? Not consciously, but I have found that the aesthetic of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy has snuck into all of our wardrobes. I think that is exactly right, speaking from personal experience. We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about a lot of things today. [03:49] You wrote a piece last summer, long before Love Story started airing, about the continued cultural fascination with JFK Jr. specifically. What prompted you to write that piece? [04:19] done this documentary. However, I felt the timing was a little bit [04:23] Like, something about this guy is in the air right now. You know, the Kennedys have never left the political conversation, but with RFK Jr. in the mix, Jack Schlossberg on social media, there was just a sort of swirl, swirl of interest around the... [04:41] the family around this couple.

[04:44] Okay, so speaking of the show, for people who are listening to this but have not yet seen it, no spoilers, but tell us what it's about. [04:53] The show is a pretty simple idea. It traces the romance between John F. Kennedy Jr., who was at the time the country's most eligible bachelor. I know like five people here. Well, you know. [05:06] You wouldn't know that from the way around staring at you. [05:09] and Carolyn Bessette Kennedy, who was an unknown, basically. You know, she worked at Calvin Klein. I don't want to get your hopes up. Please, I'm not about begging in front of all of my closest friends. [05:23] You know where I work. [05:27] Try reception. [05:29] And they are living and falling in love in the 90s, which was really a prosperous, slightly frivolous time when glamour industries such as magazine publishing and fashion were very much centered in the office and the street. How was that nightcap? I ended up at the tunnel rolling around in the ball pit with Mickey Rourke. Like hooking up? I don't know. I don't remember. But the sun was coming up when I left, so now I'm just bracing for impact. [05:56] It's based on a popular book called Once Upon a Time by Elizabeth Beller, which is a biography of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. And, you know, that title, it just evokes the fairy tale nature of the romance and sort of puts her in a category with another tragic figure, Princess Diana. It's sort of this idea of American royalty and an American princess who died before her time. The idea, at least, is a normal woman plucked from obscurity who ends up in this royal family.

[06:26] and the show is telling is her undoing. Is her undoing. Exactly. I promise you, our personal lives will be off limits to the public. Yeah, you can't promise that, though. [06:39] You've never been married before. [06:42] No idea how this will escalate [06:47] Everything. [06:48] I know how to handle the press. Any show that breaks through these days when our attention is so divided, there's so much competing for it, feels really noteworthy. Do we know how many people are actually watching Love Story? Hulu is saying this is the most streamed, limited show. [07:03] series they've ever had. I think 40 million viewing hours. Not only is it streamed, people are interacting with it in real time. They are making their own content on Instagram and other online platforms. You can see on retail websites that demand is up for vintage Calvin Klein, vintage Prada. C.O. Bigelow, the famous apothecary in Manhattan's West Village, has been [07:33] headbands such as Carolyn Bissette wore [07:36] There'd been JFK Jr. lookalike contests in multiple cities. And so, you know, it's not just a show. It's a phenomenon. [07:45] You mentioned Calvin Klein. I saw that they had even done their own, like, 90s edit. They and others are really capitalizing on this moment to sell Carolyn Bessette-inspired fashion. Everybody is trying to sell me, like, here are the pieces that you could wear so you can look like her. It's quite extraordinary. It's the best thing that happened to Calvin Klein since Brooke Shields in the jeans. In the jeans, the famous jeans. That's right. That's right, which also makes a cameo on the show.

[08:15] Ryan Murphy is one of the most successful producers in Hollywood. You know, I go back to Nip Tuck and Glee. [08:45] impeachment, and monster, which spotlighted Jeffrey Dahmer. [08:50] And... [08:51] love story... [08:53] It's not true crime, but it has an element of kind of... Ripped from the headlines. Yes. Exactly. True story TV drama. Yeah, and the Kennedys might say it's a crime. Right. But, right, it has that feeling of, like, we're going to reenact something you remember. I mean, that's what I think is extraordinary about it. It's not that far away. I see you got a new bike. I did, yeah. I reported the last one stolen, but I think the case has gone cold. And yet still no luck. [09:23] Well, you know, baby steps. Maybe we start with a helmet and work our way up from there. Over this set of hair? [09:29] I don't think so. [09:29] Obviously, the public has devoured the show. Can you just talk a little bit about how it's been received critically? [09:35] Well, the reviews haven't been as positive as the audience reception. I think that The New Yorker called it a forgettable elegy for Gen X. I think that, look, Ryan Murphy shows are cartoonish. It's a cartoonish portrayal of something that lives in collective memory. I think for anyone who lived through that time of the media or even just used it for research, it's going to not be entirely satisfying.

[10:05] Perhaps they found it cartoonish. A lot of people have pointed to something that I personally found sort of hard to watch, which was the depiction of Jacqueline Onassis. There's a scene where she's dancing to—what is she dancing to? She's dancing to a song from the musical Camelot. Each evening, from December to December. [10:35] portrait of Jack Kennedy is hanging somehow in her living room on Fifth Avenue, and she is dancing. [10:46] I kept thinking of, you know, Black Swan. I don't know why. Or, you know, a dying swan on a ballet stage. It was cringe. [11:01] So now that we have both established that we found that scene [11:04] of her dancing, both cringey and campy. This feels like a good moment to ask you, overall, did you like the series? [11:11] *sigh* [11:12] I hated it and I watched it. I watched it for the same reason I watched not only Dynasty when it first came out in the 80s, but I watched the remake of Dynasty, you know, even though I found it far inferior. I mean, there's certainly something escapist about watching depictions of rich people, you know. I was intrigued to see how these real-life characters were portrayed, and some of them are portrayed very well, but...

[11:39] I think also it's that kind of thing where I'm as fascinated with the discourse around the show as I am with the show itself. Well, then let us discourse. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we are going to take a deep dive into some of the reasons that the show is as big of a hit as it is. We might be in a new era of it's so bad, it's bingeable. Right. [12:09] Bye. [12:10] you [12:12] This podcast is supported by the Edison Electric Institute. [12:16] Electricity powers nearly every moment, from the lights and homes to the hospitals, schools, and businesses communities depend on. And behind that power are America's electric companies. [12:28] governed by clear standards, accountable to their communities, committed to their customers, and working to safely, responsibly, and reliably provide the energy of every day. [12:40] America's electric companies, powering the energy of every day. This podcast is supported by BP. Behind every BP fill-up, thousands of people across America go to work every day. From the people producing oil and gas in the Gulf today, to those discovering resources we'll need tomorrow, to the people refining our fuels, all the way to the people who help you at one of BP's family of retail stations. They're part of around 300,000 U.S. jobs BP supports across the country.

[13:10] See all the ways BP is driving American energy forward at bp.com slash investing in America. This podcast is supported by the Whitney Museum of American Art. Don't miss the Whitney Biennial on view through August 23rd, featuring 56 artists working in painting, sculpture, digital, film and performance. [13:40] for visitors 25 and under. Starting June 16th, the Whitney is open seven days a week through August 18th. [13:47] Visit whitney.org for more information and to book timed tickets. [13:52] Alexandra Jacobs, [13:54] Why do you think the show has been so popular? [13:56] Well, one thing is it's a classic Cinderella story, and those always resonate. Typically, our clients make appointments. I'm a 33 waist. I know that. Carolyn Bessette was not [14:07] sweeping out the Garrett. You know, she was not from a poor family, but she wasn't a Kennedy or a celebrity. She was not famous. Yeah, she was not famous. How can I make it up to you? By swiping your credit card. [14:18] Or? [14:21] You could let me take you to dinner. [14:24] And when he chose her, the question was, well, why her? Why not? Why not me? That's what every woman in America is probably like. Why not me? Yeah, yeah. I think the feeling was, if he could choose her, then someone like him could choose me. What did she do to get a guy like him so entranced with her?

[14:51] are really interested in the story of Prince William and Kate Middleton, right? [14:55] Or perhaps go back farther to the now King Charles, the then Prince Charles and Princess Diana, which also, of course, ended very tragically. I think that's even more of a parallel. And like Princess Diana, people are still really interested in the Kennedy story, including people who are too young to remember any of the people that we are talking about in the show. [15:17] I wonder why you think the public... [15:21] fascination with the Kennedys has endured. [15:24] Well, I think that's partly because of the continued participation of the Kennedys in public life. They carry themselves as standard bearers for certain American values. They... [15:39] Seemed to embody a time of America, you know, rightly or wrongly, where there was sort of a sense of promise and expansion and dream, American dream. I think they, for years, they embodied a realization of the American dream, which is that you could come from an ethnic group that was frowned upon. Marginalized. [16:09] glamour and success, business success, romantic success. Well, yes, also having tragic elements that give it that Shakespearean quality. [16:21] sometimes wonder how I'd be

[16:25] remembered if I hadn't [16:27] Thank you. [16:29] If I wasn't... [16:30] What? [16:33] America's Widow. [16:35] Thank you. [16:37] Right. The family's tragedies have very much become part of their public story. Well, also, don't forget they were running in parallel with the development of the media, of which this show is only the latest iteration. So you have, you know, Joe Kennedy's exploits were covered in newspapers and Jacqueline Bouvier met John Kennedy when she was a photographer. [17:07] And, you know, then you get to this generation we're talking about and you have magazine print magazines and tabloid television and tabloid newspapers. And now you've got the Internet. So, you know, the Kennedys of today are creatures of inner of the Internet and of social media like RFK Jr., Jack Schlossberg. When we're watching the Ryan Murphy show, we are looking at a couple that was very much a creature of they were creatures of glossy magazines. [17:36] Okay, so that's the Kennedys. I want to turn to Carolyn Bessette. There's a lot of big stuff we have to talk about before we can get married. [17:49] Thank you. [17:51] Like how our lives really fit together. You know?

[17:56] Something I found really interesting as I was doing some research for this episode is just how little there is out there about Carolyn Bessette. She was photographed a lot, but she very rarely gave interviews. In fact, I think she quite famously declined a couple of major interviews. And I wonder how you think that vacuum of information about the real life Carolyn Bessette contributed to her portrayal on the show. [18:20] I think it gave the show's creators a feeling of license to create a character. [18:27] And this character is elusive, ambivalent, private, did I say ambitious already? You know. She doesn't like the spotlight either. She doesn't like the spotlight. She's portrayed as hating it on the show. What a novelty. You know, it's so rare to find everyone's oversharing now. You have to conscientiously object to not give of yourself online and photograph yourself, be photographed. [18:57] Thank you. [18:57] is really not very much. And in the absence of that, I guess people have to or get to project their own images onto her. I mean, she seems glamorous. And what is glamour? You know, it's mysterious. She seems glamorous and mysterious and unknowable. [19:16] Aren't you gonna go get it? No, just let it ring. [19:20] Her character reminds me [19:22] of an embodiment of this book that came out in the '90s that was called "The Rules." - Keep going. Oh, you are unreal. Screening him.

[19:29] What, did you read that in the rules or something? It's just feeling a little intense. Yeah, as it should be. It was a huge bestseller. We all made fun of it. That book was sort of a dating guide for women that was instructing them to let men chase them, which in the 90s was a very retrograde concept. It seems to be, you know, coming back again. But there was a phrase in that book, be a creature like no other. [19:59] Seems to have embodied the idea of being a creature like no other. I have no idea if she ever read the rules or this was just who she was. I think it probably was just who she was. But she seems very self-assured. And, you know, John Kennedy Jr. was besieged not only – I mean, he had women throwing themselves at him all the time. You know, what we know about her, and as depicted on the show, she did not seem particularly wowed by him. [20:29] deny the engagement because you couldn't handle the world knowing there was a woman on planet Earth who might not want to marry you. [20:37] - I'm sorry. [20:38] You're just looking for the escape hatch now, huh? [20:40] Right. So the fact that we know relatively little about her might have given the show's creators this feeling of license to kind of fill in the gaps in the way that was the most dramatic, would make the most entertainment, would make it the most watchable. And the character that they created is glamorous and mysterious and most importantly, perhaps, seemingly immune and maybe even put off by JFK Jr.'s fame and spotlight.

[21:10] the only woman, perhaps, who is able to resist the sexiest man alive, which almost certainly flattens the real-world experience of these two people, but nevertheless, makes for extremely watchable television. [21:23] Right. [21:25] Okay, let's talk about another major element of the show here, and this has been talked about a lot, which is the style and fashion of the 90s, and specifically also Carolyn Bessette's style and fashion. [21:44] As I mentioned, every clothing retailer, everything on Instagram is trying to sell me some version of her style. How would you describe the way that she dresses in the series? [21:53] Carolyn Bessette's style, I think of it as a sort of very high-end version of, frankly, the gap, which I don't mean as an insult. I mean, Carolyn Bessette Kennedy was wearing really sort of basic minimalist items, which is really kind of a palate cleanser after the Rococo fancy over-the-top style of the 80s that was perhaps embodied more by the Trumps. [22:23] The labels she preferred, like Prada or Yoji Yamamoto, these were very kind of stark lines and classic silhouettes. But I think part of the appeal is that they're refreshing to the eye. But can I just say, though, that I feel like Carolyn Bessette's style on this show is a Rorschach test. Because either you look at her and you think, as you do, this looks like The Gap. It's just like simple jeans, long-sleeved white shirts, suede skirts with knee-high boots and a black top.

[22:53] so special about this? Or your reaction is, this is the chicest thing I've ever seen. All I want is a bias cut slip dress that's black and like simple heels, no jewelry. She was famously never wore any jewelry. Apparently that's a resurgence, not wearing jewelry. So like the show has created these two poles. I've seen articles saying... [23:12] What is so special about This Is The Gap and how can we all dress like her? That's right. And I really do think there's, for younger people, there's probably some level of exhaustion with how much you are all marketed to and how much trends change now. So to see these sort of clean, simple lines must be very appealing to me. [23:33] The other sort of visual element of this show that I think is appealing to people is just the portrayal of the 90s. [23:41] Ah, the 90s in New York City. I never expected to see this era romanticized in the way that it has been. I think that there is tremendous nostalgia for a time before iPhones. [24:11] Creative industries were unthreatened by artificial intelligence and, you know, writing for magazines or – [24:19] Working for a fashion designer seemed like a viable career path. You had a phone on your desk.

[24:25] You might have had a cell phone, but it didn't contain—you weren't ordering your lunch. You know, you weren't, like, ordering your lunch from an app. You were maybe wandering down the street. You were anonymous. You were anonymous. And you were not documented. Not every single moment— [24:42] of your life was under the microscope. There were no location services, not that I was aware of anyway. So you think people are looking at this and feeling either nostalgic for it or pining for it if they never got to experience it? Honestly, as someone who lived through it, I'm not nostalgic for it. But I think there's a great curiosity about it. But you can understand why, actually, you're bringing up a good point, because if you didn't live through it, it's this idealized version of the 90s that maybe you're fascinated by. It's the same way I was nostalgic for the 70s and the [25:12] I looked at those 70s fashions, which, by the way, the 90s recycled. I mean, every 20 years, it all gets recycled. And, yeah, I mean, I just think young people can't – digital natives can't imagine a time when their phones didn't dictate every aspect of their life. So – I feel like the appeal of love story – [25:33] in terms of the era that it portrays and how it could appeal to an entirely new generation, is so similar to Sex and the City. Sex and the City, the city was a character. The fashion was a character. And even if you didn't live through that time, you look at that, and I think that brought an entire generation of women to New York City. I'm sure. And, you know, there's also analogy, and you see these places like Sex and the City had Magnolia Bakery. Just like they're

[26:03] You went a little rogue with the order, but I was pleasantly surprised. Well, I went backpacking through India after I graduated, and I learned very quickly that ordering chicken tikka masala is a surefire way to get made fun of. [26:16] You bad-bagged? [26:16] Yeah. [26:17] Hmm. [26:18] I mean, I think people want to revisit the rhythms of dating life before apps, before the, you know, Tinder and Hinge and all that and Grindr and Bumble and all those things. Just keep listing. Just keep going. Yeah, keep going because the fact is, you know, I mean, dating has always been difficult. [26:36] But it's funny, yeah, to my surprise or to my inevitably that this is now seems like something romantic and exotic and interesting. Well, no, I feel like this is you've kind of summed up why the show has become so popular. It's got some really key ingredients. It is a Cinderella story set in an idealized 90s New York that everybody wants to be in. And it involves America's royal family. Like it has built a world. It's a perfect cocktail. [27:06] perfect world-building show that people are fascinated by and want to be in. [27:12] And on top of that, I think one other thing that is driving people to this show is the controversy around it. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the backlash and the controversy to Love Story and whether ultimately it has been good or bad for the show. So [27:28] We'll be right back.

[27:38] you [27:40] This podcast is supported by the Edison Electric Institute. [27:44] Electricity powers nearly every moment, from the lights and homes to the hospitals, schools, and businesses communities depend on. And behind that power are America's electric companies, governed by clear standards, accountable to their communities, committed to their customers, and working to safely, responsibly, and reliably provide the energy of every day. [28:08] America's electric companies, powering the energy of every day. This podcast is supported by BP. Behind every BP fill-up, thousands of people across America go to work every day. From the people producing oil and gas in the Gulf today, to those discovering resources we'll need tomorrow, to the people refining our fuels, all the way to the people who help you at one of BP's family of retail stations. They're part of around 300,000 U.S. jobs BP supports across the country. [28:38] See all the ways BP is driving American energy forward at BP.com slash investing in America.

[29:08] Terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change. Visit att.com slash iPhone or visit an AT&T store for details. [29:17] Alexandra, we have talked a lot so far about the appeal of the show, the reception of the show. We have not yet talked about the criticism, not the reviews, but the actual criticism and controversy of this show. Specifically, that it has faced some very withering criticism from two people in particular. Jack Schlossberg, JFK Jr.'s nephew, and Daryl Hannah, the actress that JFK Jr. was in an off-again, on-again relationship with in real life. [29:47] One of the central complaints that they both had was essentially that the show took a lot of liberties that were not necessarily based on real life. [29:56] Right. Well, Jack Schlossberg, who's running for Congress, is making the point that Ryan Murphy is making a tremendous amount of money off his family and this portrayal of his family without actually talking to them or getting any kind of authorization or participation. [30:16] And he's making a ton of money on [30:19] a grotesque display of someone else's life. I would hope... Ryan Murphy actually responded to this criticism when he was on Gavin Newsom's podcast. He was asked about Schlossberg's critique, and he said it was, quote, [30:32] I thought it was an odd choice to be mad about your... [30:37] your relative that you really don't remember

[30:42] Which, you know, is that for him to say that, you know? Like, it seems like it would have been so easy for him to say, I don't know, literally anything else. Like, I'm sorry he feels that way or we tried to respect the legacy of the Kennedy family. But the fact that he was like, well, he didn't know him anyway. I don't know why he feels like that. Like, what do we make of that? Well, what else do you expect from a producer who had a whole show called Feud? I think it's quite audacious. It shows his irreverence. [31:12] That's a polite way of putting it. Yeah, I mean, well— I mean, it's, like, grotesquely disrespectful. I think Ryan Murphy is starting from out of a different gate. He's just not even engaging on the same level. He's saying something that will stir up—intentionally or not, he's saying something that will stir up the dialogue. [31:42] Bring us to Daryl Hannah's opinion piece. Yes, the other major public criticism of the show came from the actress Daryl Hannah, who dated JFK Jr. before he met Carolyn Bessette. They were on again, off again in real life. They were on again, off again on the show. She is portrayed on the show as clingy and desperate and whiny and, above all, rejected. He doesn't want her. Why did you want to get back together again if you're just going to act like this? [32:07] You came back to me. On the condition of a clean slate which you agreed to.

[32:13] And yet every time I look at you, your mind is clearly someplace else. [32:18] The real Daryl Hannah wrote an op-ed in the New York Times titled How Can Love Story Get Away With This? And she says in this piece, quote, The character Daryl Hannah portrayed in the series is not even a remotely accurate representation of my life, my conduct, or my relationship with John. The actions and behaviors attributed to me are untrue. And she goes on to say, quote, [32:48] factual. When entertainment borrows a real person's name, it can permanently impact her reputation. Alexandra, what do you make of that critique? I mean, I think it's a valid critique. Legally, Ryan Murphy's absolutely fine. Creators, producers, directors, writers have tremendous latitude with public figures. But so she wrote an article about it. This is one of the most popular [33:18] reflect. Readers agree. Many readers say we're refusing to watch. You know, I can't account for the many, many, many others who are gobbling up the performance. Some people think this is the price you pay for being famous. But also, I mean, if I was Daryl Hannah and, you know, nobody can get inside of a relationship. Who knows how she actually was. But nonetheless, I mean, I can

[33:48] of me out there that some people might think was true. But that's what entertainment does. It takes real stories and warps them all the time. This is not necessarily a new complaint. And I just don't know, while I can understand why she'd be upset about this, I can't figure out where do we think the ethical boundaries are when it comes from taking true stories and fictionalizing them. [34:08] You know, this old boss, this editor, the New York Observer, he'd say, if you run into a celebrity on the street, just interview them. Interview them. Just go right up to them. He said, yeah, he said they chose this life. I'll never forget him saying that. And, you know, he wasn't wrong. I mean, I get his point. But, you know, but OK, but in Daryl Hannah's case... [34:30] If she had been interviewed, if she had been consulted, I mean, I think that's where the tension is. It would have inoculated. Exactly. If Ryan Murphy and his staff had been able to get the buy-in of—now, I think, on the other hand, they're portraying a whole family. So I think buy-in would have been difficult because, as we know, there are disagreements within the family. And that's part of what he's portraying. So I think to get buy-in would have been very complicated. [35:00] is attention from all of this. Attention. Have you ever heard of the Streisand effect? Yes. Reiterate for me what it is again. Okay, so the Streisand effect. So Barbara Streisand once sued a photographer for taking a photo of her house in Malibu. And what do you guess the result of this lawsuit was? Oh, everyone knew her address. Everybody knows the house. That's right. Everybody knows. More people probably want to go to the house to see the famous Barbara Streisand lawsuit house. And I would get, and I have no data. I'm about to say something that I have absolutely zero data for.

[35:30] But I'm going to guess that the number of people who have refused to watch the show because they side with Jack Schlossberg or Daryl Hannah is less than the number of people who are watching it because they want to be in the conversation and know what all the fuss is about. I mean, listen, if you are using publicity and the press in any way in your career, in your life, that... [35:51] changes the equation a little bit, right? Like, if you want the press when it's time to get your side of the story out there or your pictures out there or whatever, but then you don't like it if other creative entities, you know, you want to make the rules for every portrayal of yourself, that's challenging. So the same fame that makes her vulnerable to what Ryan Murphy has done [36:21] a highly read op-ed piece in the New York Times about what's happened. [36:26] You have to factor that into the math about how to feel about the situation. [36:30] It's interesting because in some ways, the op-ed, like the show... [36:36] asks the audience to make a choice. And the choice is, how much sympathy do you have? How much empathy do you have for somebody, real or not, born into it or not, that has that kind of fame and privilege? Exactly. [36:56] Alexandra Jacobs, always a pleasure to talk to you. Rachel, I'm always available, all too available. I'm not a rules girl when it comes to coming on The Daily.

[37:06] Today's episode was produced by Alex Barron with help from Luke Vanderplug and Tina Antolini. It was edited by Wendy Doerr with help from Michael Benoit. Contains music by Marian Lozano, Dan Powell, Diane Wong, and Alicia Baitube. And was engineered by Rowan Niemisto. Our production manager is Franny Kartoff. That's it for The Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow. [37:36] you [37:46] This podcast is supported by the Edison Electric Institute. Electricity powers nearly every moment, from the lights and homes to the hospitals, schools, and businesses communities depend on. And behind that power are America's electric companies, governed by clear standards, accountable to their communities, committed to their customers, and working to safely, responsibly, and reliably provide the energy of every day. [38:14] America's electric companies, powering the energy of every day.