A Spurs Fumble, CarusoMania, Brunson’s Mega-Rise and a Knicks Appreciation With Tim Legler and Brian Koppelman

[00:00] For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. [00:07] Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. [00:30] of Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia today. Call [redacted phone] to learn more or visit TrimphiaRadio.com. [01:01] . [01:06] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals finally is here. We are down to four teams. I think you know it'll go down. Take your shot with FanDuel. [01:16] Get closer to the action. And as you know, I've been telling you for years, FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay. [01:26] for a shot at a better payout, or try live betting and jump into the action after tip-off, or just follow me and my picks, because every once in a while, I'll put them on social. Download the FanDuo Sportsbook app.

[01:37] Right now. [01:39] and play your game. [01:40] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Get in a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. [02:16] All right, the Bill Simmons podcast. [02:21] Our friend Tim Legler is here. Kind of a [02:23] A ghostly visage here for him. Kind of magic. It's like, yeah. [02:28] Definitely, man. It's my queen album cover look. [02:32] I like it. Well, matching the weirdness... [02:34] Weirdness we just had, I think it's kind of fitting because it, [02:38] It feels like, I don't know if the Spurs can beat OKC2, or we have a lot to discuss. Wanted to mention, I have a new rewatchable that came out on Monday. We did Animal House. [02:47] You must love Animal House. That must have been one of the years from way back when. Of course. But you can catch that. [02:52] And you can hear legs. [02:54] What's the name of your podcast? The All Things Podcast? All City. All City Podcast. I'm blanking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:59] And of course you can see legs on the, uh, [03:02] and the finals, which are coming up. All right, game five. [03:06] I, here's my big takeaway.

[03:08] Just a missed opportunity for the Spurs. [03:11] I felt like it's 2-2. [03:14] AJ Mitchell gets scrapped. [03:17] Jalen Williams gets scratched pretty much like an hour before the game, although I feel like we were expecting a little bit. And then SGA comes out. [03:24] And was really bad for the first six minutes of the game. He said after the game, he said that was like the worst first quarter he's had. [03:31] in his career. He's probably exaggerating. And the Spurs, I just never really felt the urgency. They showed that [03:37] that one halftime speech when it was like 87, 71, whatever it was. They're down 16. And Wemby's got the guys around. And then they came out and played with some passion for – [03:46] I don't know, four minutes, but I don't know, man. Did they think this was a 19 game series? What's going on with them? [03:52] Thank you. [03:53] Here's what I think, a couple of things. I think, first of all, you're right about the opportunity. Listen, you've got to win another game there to win the series, right? And so you look at this situation. You don't have Jalen Williams. You don't have A.J. Mitchell. It's like their first game they're going to get them kind of like, wow, this is a lot of pressure on us here because if we don't win this game, [04:16] we're going to have to go to San Antonio with the prospect of being closed out. It's an awful lot of pressure on the home team in a 2-2 situation, and you're missing a couple of guys. So some guys are going to have to step up. So you would think, like San Antonio's, [04:29] approach to be like, this is a game, not only that, you know, we can get, we have to get. That's kind of how I think their approach should have been going in. They probably felt that way. They just didn't play well enough in this situation to get it done. And I think one of the things that jumps out right away is you look at Victor Wemanyama and a lot was being talked about like during the game that, you know, he's kind of quiet, passive, didn't get a lot of shots, a lot of touches where he wants it. He had some free throws. So his numbers weren't like

[04:59] But the thing that I'm thinking about while I'm watching that bill is this, when you look at the other top guys in this league, just go with like the all NBA team, if you want to, and even guys on the second team, like those are guys who, [05:13] because of the nature of their game, like physically, you know, their dimensions. They can get theirs when they want to get theirs a lot of times. That's not always the case for Victor Wemanyama, and it's not going to be. He's seven foot, you know, four, five, whatever you want to call it. He's slightly built. Seven, six, seven. Whatever you want to call it. Yeah, they say, every time I hear a game with Victor Wemanyama on it, they say his height differently. So I don't even know. [05:43] with seven five because that's what it looks like to me um he can't just go get it when he wants to because of that sometimes it works against him if if he's not catching the ball in ideal spots if some of their actions aren't designed so he can get a quick roll to the rim from a decent um distance not 28 feet where he's got to take two three strides to where he can get chipped and bumped [06:13] or even some of the early stuff sometimes when he gets some threes going because it's early in transition. He can't just go put it down, use his live dribble, cross guys up, [06:22] have a counter move off the dribble and get what he wants, go to a fadeaway jumper or an up and under in the mid range or whatever. It's just harder for him. So there's going to be nights.

[06:32] When that offense isn't just going to be automatic. And most of those guys in this league, when you look at Jokic, you look at Shea, you know, you look at Luka, you look at the Cade Cunninghams of the world, the Jalen Browns of the world. When you look at Anthony Edwards, when you look at those guys. [06:47] Like, and look, they're not always going to shoot great, but they can operate in spaces where they can go get a shot for themselves most of the time if they're not blitzed. [06:56] And it's not that way for Victor. Well, when you almost said there's going to be nights when that offense, you're, [07:00] is going to be a little inconsistent. Now, he affects the game defensively. He can rebound. He can do all those things. But there are nights, man, where you need your best player. [07:07] To go get you. [07:11] 30. And he is not going to be able to do that whenever he wants because [07:16] because of the way he's built. And that's kind of one thing I noticed about this game early. The way he was being defended, how hard it was for him to get touches where he wants it. He didn't really get involved in a game offensively. And in a game like this, with what's at stake, he kind of needed Victor Wemignano to be a lot better than he was offensively. [07:33] Yeah, you're talking about the concept of feeling somebody throughout a game. [07:38] Right. The best players in the league, you just kind of feel them, even if they're not having the best game. They're still around. They're in it. [07:44] What's weird is [07:46] They did this in game three. [07:48] And they made a big deal after in game four. Pop came in and yelled at us after. And we had to go back to being us. And we had to... [07:55] I thought you guys learned your lesson already that if you're just the [07:59] The three-point shooting team and Wemby's 25 feet from the basket.

[08:03] That this isn't going to really work. Now, you could also argue they lost the game because they gave up almost 130 points. [08:10] But I'm with you. Like, OKC... [08:12] because they were able to capitalize on some of the turnovers and some of the weirdness of the game. [08:18] And we're able to patch together some stretches even when SGA wasn't playing well. [08:22] I just, when I watch it, because I obviously love watching Wemby, as do you. [08:27] I just don't really understand how they use them sometimes. Like when you talk about like how do you get him more involved? They were talking on the broadcast about get him in the paint. See, see what happens when he's in the paint. [08:38] Is it really that hard to get him near the paint? Like, like, [08:40] You could start them under the basket and have them like drift up. You could have them kind of near the block trying to back in, but, [08:47] They always seem like they fall in this habit of he's just at the top of the key. His three wasn't going tonight. I didn't feel like he had his legs tonight either. [08:55] He was 0 for 5 from 3. So, [08:59] For me, it's like, are you doing what OKC wants you to do? And the answer is yes. They're really hoping going into this game that you're going to play this way with him. And that's [09:10] That's how it played out. [09:11] I think there are ways to get in the ball. And look, they know this. Mitch Johnson's a great coach. There are ways to get in the ball. It happens a little bit more organically for them. They mandate it, whatever it may be, his determination to get it. I love him personally when he sets ball screens inside of 23 feet, 22 feet. He sets elbow ball screens. He sets ball screens where he starts at the elbow and sort of heads out toward the sideline, sets it so that when he spins out of it, it's like one stride. It's easier to come off the screen.

[09:41] just quickly throw it to him as he's first starting to move toward the rim. And then it's very difficult for the rotating defender to do much with it because of where he's catching the ball. If you just think he's going to run down the floor, go into the post area, and just kind of put his hand up and get it where he wants, you can see time and time again he gets into wrestling matches down there, even against smaller guys. [10:00] It's not that easy to do. And, [10:03] sometimes I think their guards don't give him enough time when he gets a switch he's got a smaller guy he you know a lot of guys in this league like if it's Jokic let's just use as an example that obviously wants to touch the ball in the post as well it's a guy like Jokic he gets the switch he goes somewhere you know near the lane and then he just stops camps out and uses his weight and strength and just holds the guy there puts a hand up you can just lead him and he catches [10:33] him to just hold his position and keep [10:37] keep that defender at bay. They're trying to back into him and they're trying to use their back into his thighs and like dislodge him. Now he can get there. You've got to give him an extra count. And the problem is against OKC, [10:51] That means the ball handler needs a little bit more time. The pass needs a little bit more time. The problem is they're being pressured like hell out there. So they can't just sit there and hold it and wait for Victor to get his position down there. They end up reversing it. And by the time he's now looks like he's ready to receive it, the ball's going to the other side of the floor. It's going to the top of the key, then to the other side. And now you're asking an awful lot. Now is he going to flash from one side through traffic, get bumped three times, and go catch it on the other side of the lane?

[11:21] game that's not his physical profile to play that way so the quick hitters off the ball screens when he sets the screen closer to the rim and he dies quicker the ball hits him like right away as he's moving he can catch it he can do something really effective with it and actually that's where he draws most of his fouls i didn't see him involved in a lot of actions like that in this game he was catching it a lot [11:43] and then turning and facing and trying to figure out what he wanted to do against guys off the dribble. And that's just not going to be there every night for him the way that it is other elite scorers in this league who can get lower. They can set you up, get into a step back jumper from wherever they want. They can cross you up, counter, maybe even cross you up and then go back between their legs the same direction and get like a little pull up. [12:08] and operate in a one-on-one space, that's just not going to be there all the time for Victor. And it wasn't really tonight. And they needed more from him. And, you know, at the same time, Oklahoma City was getting really good performances from some guys that had to be big tonight. One of which, you know, you had texted me earlier and said, McCade's got to have a great game. 7 for 19 is not a great night, but it was very impactful. Second half. Yeah, second half. Very impactful. It's well, and that's your younger guys, usually at home, are going to be a little bit of a safer bet. I wrote down... [12:37] Maybe playoff experience does matter, question mark. So here's the thing with playoff experience, because this was the thing we always talked about. [12:46] during this season with the Spurs. They're too young. They're not ready yet. Well, what does that mean? [12:50] You think like you're too young. That means, oh, my God, there's so much pressure. I don't know what to do. I've never been here before. It's like almost like how it would be like with a quarterback like Drake May in the playoffs last year.

[13:02] Ooh, um, [13:05] And then, well, we have Dave Jacoby here on the Zoom for some reason, trying to figure out. [13:10] Why? [13:11] This is exciting. [13:15] But, but when I think about playoff experience, I, [13:19] Sometimes it's just kind of knowing what to do. [13:22] In a game like this, right? He's 22 years old. [13:25] It's like, hey, they don't have Jalen Williams. [13:28] They don't have A.J. Mitchell. [13:30] Come out in the first half and have like the game of your life. Have like your ESPN classic game. [13:35] And that's the you thing. I feel like when he's 27, 28 years old, [13:40] You just approach this game a little bit differently. But I don't listen. Oh, go ahead. [13:45] No, I was just going to say, no, you're right. I look at the Dylan Harper component to this. He's such an X factor because he's so physically talented. He's a guy. [13:53] that can play through [13:56] the pressure, the grabbing, holding that you're going to get against these OKC guards, particularly in the postseason. He can play through that stuff. He's just got strong shoulders, forearms. He can still get to his spots. He's got multiple speeds he plays with. I think he's a little bit more affected when De'Aaron Fox is out there. De'Aaron Fox is running more of the show. It's almost like Dylan Harper is in a different mindset. In a game like this, he plays 25 minutes. [14:26] field dylan harper's too good a player and he is physically too gifted against this type of defense for him to be some sort of afterthought for them offensively he needed to be much more aggressive had the opportunity to be aggressive he could have made up for some of what wambi wasn't giving you right because not everybody on this team can play through that stuff um harper can he can still get where he wants to get on the floor but he really was sort of quiet and and passive and he's look

[14:56] player on the road in the biggest game of his life uh yeah that probably factors into it and some of these guys from the thunder man have been here before their younger players are just a little bit older than some of san antonio's right yeah yeah i thought i felt like castle in the first half was like that like he was just super sloppy and [15:15] And I thought it was hurting them. And then in the second half, you could see he's like, you know, I'm going to put I'm going to get my defense going. I'm going to put my head. I'm going to get to get to the basket. And he actually had a really good second half. [15:25] Harper did not, and Fox was bad. I think Fox is hurt. I don't feel like he had any left. I agree. He's 4th for 15. [15:31] He just didn't have that snap. He's trying to play through it, man, and I respect that. I really do, man. You're not going to sit there. If you can go, you're not going to sit there and watch other guys play. Well, they need him. He's the only guy to take care of the ball. Absolutely need him. He's had the one playoff series under his belt before this season. This guy's like, I'm not missing this for anything. But I think you're right because he has – [15:54] He has that next level quickness that gets to from point A to point B. And against a team like the Thunder, you really need that because of the way they close down driving lanes. They're so good at helping on the lane, closing out with speed to the three-point line. Like he can match that speed and he doesn't quite seem like he's got all of that. And it is what it is. He's going to play through it. But, you know, 33 minutes, four for 15 from the field, that's not really typical for De'Aaron Fox.

[16:24] with you. I don't think he's right. [16:25] Not a lot of coast to coast stuff with him. No. Either. Um, [16:31] With all that said, [16:33] Wemby kind of sucked for him. [16:35] Fox didn't have Lyft. [16:37] Harper didn't really show up. [16:39] And Champagne kind of kept them in the game the first half. [16:43] I kind of like the shot San Antonio was getting at this game. They missed a lot of corner threes in the second half. [16:49] I thought there were stretches where I didn't love the whistle they were getting offensively. I thought they did a bunch of dumb stuff defensively and some... [16:57] some of the fouls, but, um, but it was weird. They were hanging around, hanging around. And it was at one point near the end of the third quarter, I think it was eight. [17:04] And it was like, shit. [17:06] This is... [17:08] they're going to steal this game. I've seen this before. Wemby's going to put the superhero cape on in the fourth quarter. [17:14] But OKC did a really good job. And Hartenstein and Caruso... [17:19] And then McCain getting hot near the end. But I thought Hartenstein and Caruso. If you had to pick the number two MVP for OKC for this series... [17:29] After SGA, obviously, who's the MVP. Who would your number two MVP choice for OKC be? Because mine would be Caruso. [17:35] Man, it's tough. Honestly, yeah, you probably would be Caruso. The timeliness of his shooting, what he always gives you in other areas, but the timeliness of his shooting and scoring has been immense in this series. But again, you could handpick some spots for Hartenstein, too. You go, where would they be without the way he played? Chet has not been anything overwhelming offensively. Pretty solid. I thought Hartenstein was great in this game.

[18:05] with that little push shot, which is, you know, I always refer to as releasing the doves. It's just the strangest looking shot that he has perfected. And he just, he's letting, he lets the doves go, like in Central Park somewhere. Like that's what it looks like. He shot one of those, by the way, over Wimbenyama. [18:20] on the right baseline, that ball must have traveled like 8, 9, 10 feet above the square. It was like a mirror shot. It was until you think about the actual distance. It was like a 12-foot shot that traveled a greater distance than most NBA three-point shots. [18:40] Well, the other thing I love with him, he, uh, how high that ball show. Yeah. The other thing I love with him. Well, two things. [18:47] First of all, his fouls, [18:49] are just hard, you feel them fouls that aren't flagrants, but each one is like a foul and a half. [18:56] The other thing, [18:57] He gets offensive rebounds, but they always feel like they're these big... [19:02] kind of quarter swinging offensive rebounds. Like he had two in a row that led to, I think two threes, [19:08] I'm going to say it was like an eight point game. All of a sudden it was a 13 point game. [19:12] just because he kept two possessions alive. So there... [19:16] I agree with you. I said this in a a couple of days ago, like, [19:20] I thought in game one, I was like, man, they're going to play them off the floor. You're not going to be able to keep them. And now you watch and you go... [19:27] How are they going to let this guy leave this summer? Because he's got like the $29 million team option. [19:34] J-Dub's contract pumps up. Holmgren's contract pumps up. They got Lou Dort they have to figure out. You know, they're going to be in some real tax issues.

[19:44] They haven't shown a huge appetite to pay it, but I don't see how he let it heart and stain. I don't see how you let him leave. I still think he'd have real value to, [19:51] I don't know, eight, ten other teams that have cap space or at least a mid-level. [19:56] Definitely, because the one thing he totally understands also is he is the master at finding that late in the possession little pocket that he has to get to to make himself available when a guard penetrates. And then maybe it's they've already tried a couple of actions. It wasn't going. Now a guy just gets downhill and it's going to be a bad shot that somebody's about to throw up at the rim. And then here comes Hartenstein from the baseline and he flashes right into that middle of the lane area. You know, 10, 12 feet. [20:26] gets that soft shot out so he bails out some of their possessions he gives them extra possessions and he has six offensive rebounds i don't think you can tangibly even quantify how many additional offensive rebound opportunities he creates because they've got two guys trying to keep him off the glass right other guys guards then sneak in and run down a long one that guard should have been there for the opponent they're not because they're helping chip on hartenstein because they're tired [20:56] that's a whole nother element to like what he brings to it just because of his activity. And I love that your, your point about the fouls, you don't play through those for, and once, [21:05] against hartenstein he's gonna he's gonna hit you yeah in a way and again he said it's all it's all legal stuff he's chopping down on your arms biceps forearms as guys are trying to get up and then you're gonna feel it and you're not gonna most importantly you're not gonna play through it for an and one you're gonna have to go earn them in a lot of cases maybe you know your arm is like numb when you're like going up there to try to shoot well in your arm uh so sg had 32 16 for 17

[21:35] McCain's 18,000. [21:37] Hartenstein was 12 and 15 and Caruso's 22 with six deals and four threes. I have two big picture questions for you. [21:45] Thank you. [21:46] This is the basketball fan. Just that. [21:49] after game one, [21:51] which was an all-time, all-time, all-timer. [21:54] It was like, wow. [21:55] Buckle up. [21:56] This is a series for the ages. Did we fly a little too close to the sun? Because we haven't had a good game since. This series has not been a classic. [22:05] Game one had all of the everything you'd ever want, [22:09] And then we've had four kind of, eh, [22:11] Probably never watched... [22:13] Any parts of any of these games again? [22:15] Where are we with this series now? Because I'm watching, well, that'll lead to big question number two, but I'm watching this one, like. [22:22] I really thought this was going to be the finals and it doesn't 100% feel that way. So why? Most anticipated game of the entire season without a doubt with what's at stake in this game. Because what I said earlier, San Antonio, a lot of people believe can win the series. We're going to win the series. This is your chance. [22:40] This is your chance. You know, they each split on each other's floor. So now you go, okay, this is what it sets up. This game five, you get it. You get that last home opportunity to close out the defending champion. This is what we grew up with. These awesome game fives. This is it. This is like the one that shows on NBA TV for 20 years. [22:58] Game five is the one. And I agree with you. I mean, obviously, all you really want as a fan, [23:03] When you sit down to watch it as a broadcaster, if I'm calling the game,

[23:08] Just give me some drama late. [23:11] That's all you really ask for, man. So somebody that has to really rise up and show a lot of nerve to knock down a big shot, like some great defensive play. That's all you're asking for, man. That inside of a minute game could go either way type of feel to it. And no, you haven't really had. He had that incredible first game. It was the greatest games any of us have ever seen in the playoffs. And you're thinking, as we all were, oh, man, we're going to get like five or six more of those. [23:41] going to be incredible. And it's, I guess that was too hard to live up to, man. Um, but look, it might've, it might've taken something out of both teams. Like we've had a bunch of injuries since that game and a bunch of guys that don't look like they're a hundred percent anymore. [23:54] Yeah, well, hey, listen, at least it certainly beat what we were calling in the Eastern Conference Finals with what went on. I certainly got that same drama in game one of that series. Yeah, you did. With what the Knicks had to do, 22-point deficit in less than eight minutes. [24:08] And Brunson just put on an all-time show and then, you know, goes overtime, Knicks win. And then the rest is history. And you know particularly how those last two ended in Cleveland. So at least, you know, these games, even though like Oklahoma City got up 10, 12, 15, 18, whatever it was, you're still sitting there going. There's enough time. Spurs are good enough. And like the way the game was kind of going, you know, Spurs could make an 8-0 run here, 10-0 run. This could still get to a six-point game with five minutes to go.

[24:38] in both cases throughout the series, haven't been able to make that run that really made the other team feel it outside of game one, really feel it, that they were going to chase you down and you're going to have to really earn this late in the game. So, yeah, I guess so. I mean, I guess from a fan's perspective, has it lived up to it? I don't think anybody in Oklahoma City is bitching about that right now. They're up 3-2, and that's fine with them, man. They don't need to have the drama that we're describing if they can end up winning this in six or seven games. [25:07] Well, that leads to question number two. [25:09] We headed into the series thinking this was the NBA Finals. [25:13] The Knicks are just playing better than both of these teams. Yeah. [25:16] It's just a fact. Now you could say it's the schedule they played, but [25:21] Um, [25:22] It's really hard. I think you were there too, the 2014 finals. [25:27] Spurs Miami and the Spurs just hit that level where they just put, we're playing so beautifully together. [25:33] I remember being on TV back then, being like, I think this series, like in game four, like, I think this is over. [25:38] I think that the Spurs... [25:40] I've kind of solved Miami and I think they've gone to another level. And it was just the selflessness and everything we were watching, which you just watched for four games. [25:49] And if I'm them, I feel like I can beat either of these teams now. Now, we don't know if OKC, if J-Dub comes back and Mitchell and they have a full – [25:56] healthy team and they're going to have all these dudes to throw at Brunson and [26:00] and try to wear him down and guard him 94 feet. I get there's some matchup stuff, but just holistically, if I'm the Knicks, I'm like – [26:07] We're in a heater.

[26:09] These teams are just going to beat the crap out of each other. And something magical is happening. We can actually win the finals, which I don't think anyone other than them would have thought two weeks ago, right? [26:20] I mean, I go back. Two weeks ago, I probably will be thinking about it. They haven't lost a game in a month in the playoffs. So I think once they got into that Philly series and started hitting their stride, [26:31] And this was looking this way every night offensively somewhere in the Philly series. It started to look like, OK, damn, the Knicks, man, like they've really like closed that gap with the West, because at one point, I don't know how long ago you'd have to go back. Let's say for me, probably, you know, March, late March, early April, where you're going, it's a foregone conclusion. Whoever wins the West is the NBA champion. [26:54] And at that time, there was even a time when Denver was even still kind of included in that. Right. But it was really we were mainly talked about the top two teams and. [27:03] Here's what I'll tell you. That narrative is now completely changed because of the way the Knicks are playing. Now I'm not sitting here predicting the Knicks will win. What I'm saying is now you've got a series. [27:13] with whoever they play. That's the kind of basketball that they're playing because it was going to take something that was going to be almost... [27:21] mind-blowing offensively to think that anybody coming out of the East was going to be able to operate the way you need to to actually win a series against those two defenses. [27:32] And that's what the Knicks have reached. It's literally a level of offensive basketball as you sit there. It's so overwhelming for their opponents. You can't really even believe that you're deep into the NBA playoffs. And this is happening.

[27:46] And it was the switch was flipped in the middle of the Atlanta series. They haven't lost a game since 11 straight. Saw some really interesting stat. I kind of had some people dig up for me because I was really curious. I'm looking at this team and I'm going, when have you had five starters at the same time playing this well in rhythm? So I looked at their field goal percentage as a group, the five starters. [28:08] 53% [28:10] As a group. [28:12] Okay, so I went and I said, well, who else has done that? You know how far you have to go back? [28:17] The only three group of starters that were this deep into the postseason that had a higher field goal percentage collectively amongst starters than the Knicks team this year were the 84, 85, and 86 Lakers. [28:32] Jesus. And they were layups and dunks half the time. That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what I said. It's magic. It's Kareem. It's worthy. Like this is the team. And they did it three years in a row, a little bit, a notch above that. [28:45] And then the Knicks. [28:47] 53% for your start as a group. And it's like, it's, I mean, what bridges finally cooled off. I mean, I was like, okay, you know, because the numbers were getting so ridiculous. At one point he was 67 for his last 97. [29:00] from the field and a guy who shoots mostly jumpers it gets a little bit of slashing stuff a couple layups in transition but a lot of it is pull-up jumpers a couple of threes a game doesn't go to line ever to get rhythm so and he's shooting he's like 67 for his last night at one point he was 72 percent in an 11 game stretch landry shammon comes off the bench what does he do let's just go 11 for 12 from the three 12 teams

[29:24] Yeah, it was fun. We had a funny back and forth. Richard Jefferson on the broadcast said he's like, you know, man, one guy that's made himself some money is Landry Schamann. I said, is 92 percent for a three point line considered good? [29:36] In the conference finals? I don't know. So even that stuff, [29:40] But it's the starters. That's really what we're talking about here. The flow that they have. [29:45] the way they're sharing the ball. You know what that does, Bill? For me, it means this. You can win on the road now because balance is, [29:54] Travels, defense travels. Their defense is playing almost as well as their offense, but their offense has a lot to do with that because it's been so good. You're taking the ball to net all the time. Their defense is going to be better, but it's the balance. Balance travels. You don't need it from one guy on any given night. Guys are picking each other up. [30:13] And it's just this machine-like performance of, [30:17] offensively does now thrust them into the conversation of yes yes it's possible the knicks could be the champions when this is all said and done certainly they're worthy of going toe-to-toe with whoever they face in the nba finals and i don't think anybody thought that going into the postseason there was a worthy challenger to those teams [30:33] Well, they have a couple of things you want, right? The, [30:36] They have a star who can go toe-to-toe in the last five minutes of a game. [30:41] They can come from behind. [30:43] They don't necessarily, they're a little like OKC in the sense that they can kind of survive a bad game from anybody in their top six and somebody else will pick up the slack. They're getting all these fast break points that.

[30:54] Not sure that's going to translate into a, [30:57] into playing OKC or San Antonio, probably not the same as when like James Harden and some of the Cavs are out there. But, [31:06] I thought the best two teams I saw this century, and it's not even close, were the [31:12] with the 17 Warriors and the 0-1 Lakers. I just thought, levitated above everybody. Both of those teams legitimately could have gone undefeated. [31:19] And then we've seen teams that [31:21] went on heaters as the playoffs went along, right? The Nuggets hit a point. [31:26] in 23 where it was like jesus oh it's it's happening for these guys um [31:31] There's... [31:32] The Spurs 2014 is another great example. And then the 11 Mavs were these teams... [31:38] seven, eight guys, and you can kind of see them figuring it out in real time. [31:43] The interesting piece with the Knicks is the math is on their side too. [31:47] They're like, what are they, plus 20 now net rating for the playoffs? I remember doing this before the Dallas Celtics series. At some point, the math is the math. [31:56] If somebody's just killing everybody for a month, [31:59] You have to take that seriously. And I don't think the East was that bad either. [32:03] That Cavs team... [32:05] I thought it was a pretty tough, well-rounded team. The Knicks were better than them. But by the end of that series, they were tapping out like a UFC fighter. [32:15] And I don't know. I think the Knicks can beat either of these teams. I really do. I would not have said that even 10 days ago. But I wouldn't have them favored. But to me, it's like 50-50. Yeah, Bill, I think it would be honestly foolish for any person to say that they couldn't at this point. And I understand you could talk about the path and who they played.

[32:35] Also, there were some things in the Western Conference that the path was a little bit easier than we thought it was going to be for these teams. But listen, you look at the Knicks, there's no doubt. I mean, you know, Atlanta gave them their biggest test. Philly was, you know, dealing with the Embiid stuff, banged up. They were not right, not themselves. It still doesn't explain. [32:53] what the Knicks did to him. It doesn't explain in this series what the Knicks did to them. Now, look, [32:58] I don't think Cavs, Cavs, the way the Licks are playing, Cavs aren't winning that series regardless of what happened in game one. [33:03] You're not recovering from that. You're not recovering from that against this team, the way they're playing. So this team comes into that game. They're already on hyper drive offensively. [33:13] And now, okay, man, this is a tough spot. You put them in. So what do they do? They go have a 44 to 11 run that actually kicked their overall hyper drive into another level for the rest of the series. So because they had to find it like in that moment. I look, I don't have this all that's in front of me now. I had it before the game notes going into game four the other night when they swept. But it was like number one in all the playoff teams in fast break points per game. Number one in three-point shooting percentage overall. [33:43] They were one or two offensive, I think one, two offensive rating, one defensive rating, and vice versa. I always kept, they kept flipping it back and forth every time they'd play a game. But top two, either way, on both ends of the floor, they were dominating points in the paint. They were number one in second chance points. Like every way you can get it offensively, they're getting it. And it's even more, even more than that, even more than a number, just sitting there watching

[34:13] It's something special that they've got going on right now. They have lost two games in the postseason. [34:19] in which CJ McCollum hit a last second shot to beat him by one point. [34:23] Or this team is very, very, possibly could be 12-0. Instead, they're 12-2 because of C.J. McCollum playing great at the beginning of the Atlanta series. But once they figured out how they wanted to play... [34:35] They haven't looked back. And it's another long layoff for them. You know, going to be incredibly fresh when the final start. If this thing ends up going seven, these teams are going to get Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, three days off. [34:48] Knicks are sitting there again for a week and a half. Exactly. They're sitting there waiting. Now the difference is, [34:54] In this last series, they were waiting, and then you had to come into the garden. You know, Philly, coming off of their seven-game series to Boston, had to come into the garden right away. That'll not be the case this time. The Knicks are going on the road one way or another. So it's going to be a little bit different environment for that game one where you set the tone. But regardless, I think it'd be foolish for any person to watch the Knicks right now and not say, [35:17] that they absolutely could envision them being NBA champions when this is all said and done. [35:22] The two McCollum shots reminiscent of [35:25] the 0-1 Lakers would have gone undefeated if not for the OT game that Iverson, the step-over game, right? Right. And then the 2017 Warriors won their first 15, had a chance to go 16-0. That was KD's first year. And that team was incredible. [35:39] And that game four in Cleveland was just atrocious officiating game.

[35:45] And just a weird game where you just, everything felt wrong about it. But they really had it, 16-0 would have been... [35:53] You know, nobody's done that. [35:54] Um, [35:56] And then I look at the Knicks and it's like, yeah, they're like... [35:58] two CJ McCollum shots away from being 12 and 0 right now, which is a whole other level of [36:03] of everything. So, [36:05] You mentioned this earlier, but I think it's important because I haven't gotten to see it in person. [36:09] And you're sitting there courtside watching it. [36:12] Did they, they've passed all the eye test chemistry tests. [36:16] They have the secret unselfishness, guys pulling for each other. It seems like they check every one of those boxes. What did you see as you were sitting there? [36:24] 100% they do with the chemistry, the what's being said. [36:29] to each other in whatever, you know, moments of adversity they've had within a game or if they're not playing as well as they want to. The leadership that's coming in the huddles, the way that guys are respecting each other if they've got a voice for what they want to do. But the most impressive thing about it is. [36:48] I've watched this team now. I don't know. So we did two of the Philly, New York games. We did obviously all four of the Cleveland games. So that's six. We did one of the Atlanta games. We did the game in Atlanta when they went up 61 points. So that was pretty impressive. But so we called that game. So I've seen them now seven times, I think, in the postseason. And here's what I tell you. [37:09] They are not ever... [37:12] missing the next pass that's supposed to be made. [37:15] Yeah, it's made every time like every every time I call a game. I mean, it's like every third trip up the floor. I'm thinking to myself just the way my mind works. Ball should have gone here. That should have been reversed. That guy's open. The ball needs to go there because it would led to this. That roller needs to be hit on the short pocket. I don't say that at all with the Knicks. It's every single time it goes. We're supposed to know a lot of that is that they're playing with this surge up the floor. And you can see what it did to the Cavs. The Cavs literally just stopped running.

[37:45] They're just like, this is just, who was the wrong with these guys? [37:48] I mean, it really was. You know, you think about it, Bill, they had [37:51] What was it? 25 fast break points at a half. [37:55] In a half, the record for a playoff game is 38. They had 30 at the end of the third quarter. They could have had 35 if they wanted to keep running. They could have had 45 if they ran the entire game for whatever reason. But obviously, you're not going to do that in a game like that. So they didn't get to the record. And obviously, that was a lot about the Cavs. It's just a lack of commitment, man, to turn and sprint, run back, match up. And they just knew they were overwhelmed, and it is what it is. But it's not just them that they did it to. [38:25] at the end of the Atlanta series, they did the same thing to the Sixers. They broke three teams in a row. [38:32] They really did. I mean, and that's the thing you're watching happen right before your eyes. You're seeing... [38:38] the competitive will be taken away. [38:41] with what they're doing now the most shocking one for me by far [38:47] was the Atlanta series because that is a 3-2 series. Very much up in the air. And Atlanta's at home for a game six. You're like, okay, we might get a seventh game out of this right away in the first round. Of course, there was a lot of tension still about the Knicks, and they were down 2-1 at one point. [39:02] Thank you. [39:03] And they were up 45 points in the first half. [39:07] In the first half. And so you're like, okay, this team has, they've got waves of, [39:13] that they're hitting you with where every single read is perfect. Every cut is, is with intent. Everything they're doing right now is like literally like if you're any coach at any level, man, this is what you want your team to look like offensively because they're, they're just, they're just doing everything on point on time for each other. And then at the end of it, which you never know if you're going to get,

[39:37] They're finishing it with shot making. Like that's the one thing you can play beautiful basketball and not shoot well. They're doing that too every single game. So and that's what it looks like. And their defense has been just swarming because, again, teams have let go of the rope. [39:51] because they're getting just smashed. And so now they get careless with the ball as well. And it looks like this, you know, piranha tank, and they're just grabbing the ball and going. And it's amazing how fast these games are just turning. [40:04] into an inferno. [40:05] for the other team, where it's like not winnable in a period of six minutes. That's what they've been doing game after game. And that's like been the most impressive thing of all. [40:15] Well, and they have an incredible crowd. [40:18] And then on the road, they're now traveling like Red Sox style with it felt like it was half the fans at that Cavs game. What was the crowd like in game one? Because. [40:28] It felt like ESPN almost had to lower the crowd mics. [40:32] just so we could hear the announcers, there were some fan videos that came from that game where it was like 10 out of 10 deafening. [40:39] Yeah, because... [40:40] I've been in situations like that with those cans on where the crowd is coming through the cans and you almost can't even hear anything. How loud was it? [40:49] We're doing the open on the court. You know, myself, Mike Breen, Richard Jefferson about to do the open. We're standing shoulder to shoulder. And I was having a difficult time hearing Mike Breen. So, you know, fortunately, I kind of knew the question. So I just watched his lips. And when he stopped moving his lips, I started talking, you know, because I kind of knew what the question was. But, yeah, it was it was on that level. And then and then.

[41:12] It got real nervous. [41:14] in there. The game one, yeah. Cavs took it to him and it was like nervous energy and it didn't, at one point it didn't feel necessarily like the garden in a playoff game. They were waiting for a run that never came until it happened in that stretch when they, you know, he just kept getting one-on-one against Harden over and over and it took six incredibly difficult shots that he got. Well, I'd say four incredibly difficult, two like sort of tough, four really tough shots. [41:42] And they were. [41:45] We're determined we're staying home with three-point shooters. Let this guy go. [41:49] After six in a row, the lead's been cut in half and there's enough time to win the game. Now they started making decisions. Oh, do we run a guy out of halfway out of him? What do we do? The rotations were good. And then Shamit hits threes. Bridges hit a couple threes. And the rest is history. But there was a lot of nervousness in there. But I'll tell you this, though, Bill. We'll say this. [42:06] When Brunson started making those shots, you're still down 18, 16, 14. It felt to me like that crowd knew. [42:16] Right then, they were going to win that game. [42:19] Right. [42:19] Because of the history with the guy. [42:23] They watched him do it 20 times. We just needed this. We would waiting, hanging on the edge. We were so loud early. And then, man, they jumped us in the third quarter. And it's like, wow, are we going to lose this game? And it was a little bit of that in the third quarter. They were just waiting. Give us one, like, 8-0 run. And we're going to be fine. And that's what he did. He gave us that run. You know what's funny about that? And let him believe it again.

[42:45] Brady was like that. He got to that point as a QB where he could be down the whole game. [42:51] And, you know, they go for it on fourth and one, the other team and screw it up. And I'm like, you're giving us the ball back. Oh, my God. Brady's closing. You just kind of know. And it feels like the Knicks are like, wow, you're letting us hang around. [43:03] Brunson's going to do you realize what's about to happen? Because he's at that point. What do we do with him? [43:09] There's... [43:10] There's been very few little guards like this in the history of the league who have been able to be the guy on the team that took a team to the finals. He's never been considered... [43:19] a top five or six guy in the league. He made second team all NBA this time around. [43:24] I think we all thought incredible clutch player. [43:28] Could you win four straight playoff rounds of them? Probably not. [43:32] And now he's kind of [43:34] trying to knocking on the door of like that top four, top five in the league, just because of what's happening. I, is there, can you think of another player? [43:42] in your career, um, playing in the league, [43:46] announcing the [43:47] talking about it. Is there another player that you can think of who's been like him? [43:51] There's not a comparison for him for this reason. Other guys that have been smaller type guards... [43:57] that are your team's highest volume shot taker leading scorer. That's a hard way to, to, to go about it. If, if you got a guy that's, you know, under six, six, even that's like your point guard ish that takes most of the shots. And like, yeah, [44:13] Okay, there hasn't been, and here's why he's different than those other guys. Most of those other guys,

[44:17] lightning quick. [44:19] Right. And so they played a certain way that you're like, OK, you can see how you get escape ability. [44:25] He doesn't have that. Now, he's got a... [44:27] He's got a shiftiness that he can shake you and get by you because he's got to set you up. But you think about it, and I think it's a great, great... [44:35] lesson for young players if you're not the most necessarily the most athletic because i would call his game a grounded game he's got a grounded offensive game if you're kind of one of those guys that's got that so here's what you have to master [44:48] footwork, [44:49] balance gets strong [44:51] Get in the weight room, footwork balance, [44:55] strength. And then the last component that you can't teach that he has is a certainty of in himself of what the result is going to be. I think Jalen Brunson is more certain that, [45:10] And especially in big spots, when he goes up to release the basketball than any player in this league. [45:16] He is the most certain of where that ball is going to end up. And that is incredible because he's not going to shake you entirely. He's not blowing by you and getting it to the glass before anybody can react. He's not getting to an area in the floor and elevating 38, 40 inches for a mid-range pull-up or a lean back. He's not doing that. He's a grounded offensive player that you still can't stop because he uses his strength, footwork, balance, IQ.

[45:46] of the world. [45:46] Yeah, it's it's that's really to me the final component sets him apart. He is one of those rare players. [45:52] that like the brighter the lights, that's what he's kind of been built for his entire life. [45:56] This is what he knows. And so he was the perfect player that the Knicks acquired at the time. We weren't sure. Is this the perfect player that they just acquired? Because you didn't really know it wasn't his team yet when he left Dallas. Now it was his team. And like, OK, let's see what this looks like. And man, this is what it looks like. And the guys, by the way, shoots 46 percent or up, I think, every single year. So he's a smaller guard that's way more efficient than most guys his size have ever been in this league. [46:23] There's the sustainability with how he does it. [46:26] Because this has been four years now and it feels like he's just getting slightly better each year. [46:30] Because the one great Isaiah Thomas season with the Celtics, the second Isaiah Thomas, [46:36] When he had 29 a game, he was an MVP candidate. They made the conference finals. [46:42] But you're watching it like, man, he's going to get hurt. [46:45] he's just flying to the basket, right? And he's like this little guy going against these big dudes and over and over again felt like he was flying in the basket support. I always felt watching it like, [46:56] there's like a shelf life with this. I don't see how you can keep playing this way. [47:01] Brunson almost moves more like Jokic, where it's like, I feel like he could do this for 10 years. This is all footwork and confidence and know-how. So when I think about the guys, there's nobody to compare him to, but he's got pieces of different

[47:16] great guys from over the years, right? Like Isaiah was... [47:19] the toughest guy on that Pistons team, right? That was the bad boy Pistons. He was the toughest guy. [47:25] But also, like, in the end of games, he knew he could take over and score. I don't remember seeing Oscar Robertson. I was too young. [47:31] But they always talked about the way he controlled the pace of the game and just slowly, painstakingly got to his spots. [47:38] And that's what made him special. So there's guys, but I, [47:41] To watch a six foot one guy who... [47:44] can control a game [47:46] with his footwork basically, [47:48] who's the toughest guy on his team. And then you hear Mike Brown say this week that, [47:52] Duncan and Curry are the only two people he's ever seen as leaders like that. And those are the two best leaders of the past 35 years in the league that everybody talks about. Like if you have this guy, you have a culture the entire time you're there. [48:06] So you have that, too. It's just, it's an all-time signing. It's one of the great free agent signings in the history of the league. No doubt about it. I mean, they're talking, listen, there's a lot of people now in New York, and you see it all the time, online or conversations or podcasts, whatever, and the topic comes up, greatest Knicks of all time. He's played himself in that conversation to the point where if he wins this, he's able to win this, and he puts up the kind of typical Jalen Brunson numbers in an NBA final.

[48:36] I don't even know it's as big of an upset now as it would have been, but I'm saying these are both teams that won north of 60. And he's able to pull that off and also doesn't have home court advantage in doing that. And he goes in and he shoots 50% from the field and averages 30. And they win a title. [48:52] I can't even, I don't even know. With 53 years of baggage? [48:57] That's what I'm saying. Where do you shoot historically if that happens? It's been 53 years, you know, 27 since they just got to the finals, you know. So he's a special player, man. They got the right guys around him. Give Leon Rose and that group a lot of credit, man, for what they did and the pieces that they went out and got. [49:27] turnovers. [49:29] in game five. [49:31] of that series. [49:32] I'm sorry, he gave three of that series. And it's completely turned around for him. So even he's now... And he's figured out where to go on the court. [49:42] That's the best for him. It felt like that took two years. [49:45] And here's why that that's subtle change he made to their offense with cat. And look, it's it's his assist number spiked in Atlanta series. They're not having quite as high since there's no doubt he's touching the ball more. His shots are down. His scoring is down. It's interesting, but he feels way more important because he's touching the ball 25, 30 more times a game. But and so what that has done from a Bridges standpoint is he's really good at.

[50:09] Weak side. [50:11] like getting a little brush screen and then curling and slashing through the lane and catching some of these passes from from towns or doing that continued run to the other side. And then he's that guy that will catch the ball and immediately catch it, put it down for one dribble for 18 foot pull up. His natural motion now within the spacing they have is so much more suited to him than standing around waiting and watching high ball screen 45 times a game and hoping it's going to come your way. That's not the kind of player he is. [50:41] He's the kind of player now he's moving the entire game. And that's what their offense looks like now without a lot of play calls, by the way. It's just spacing and putting guys in the right spot at start and then make reads. And it's really suited his game. So it's not a coincidence that all of a sudden he started shooting well. Not well is an understatement of the century that he's doing this. It's because its offense now is much more suited to his skill set. And so he looks comfortable and confident. OG has been great for them, obviously. [51:11] like probably the heart and soul of what they do with what he gives up every night to try to win. It's been, it's been awesome to watch a man. They're just, they're just absolutely on fire. And that's the biggest question, whoever they get in the finals. [51:24] What are you going to do to slow this machine down? Because that's what they've turned into offensively, their machine. [51:31] I still don't completely understand the cat piece of it. [51:35] Just because... [51:36] He was in the 2015 draft. He's not like a 27-year-old player at this point. He's been in the league for his 11th or 12th season. And it was like, this is just who he is. He's going to get dumb fouls.

[51:48] There's going to be games when [51:51] It's just going to, he's going to seem upset that he's not touching the ball enough. He's going to get beaten on the glass every once in a while. He's going to be a defensive line. He hasn't been any of those things. He's been like... [52:01] Additive, he'll go six for nine. [52:05] Get 13 rebounds, maybe two turnovers. So I have one down foul each half. [52:10] But, [52:11] This is the most I've enjoyed watching him. And it's basically because he's been relegated into being this awesome supporting guy, which maybe should have been his destiny all along. Well, I think what he's done is transformed himself by the way he's playing into. Now you look at him and go, that's a winning player. That's a guy you can win with as your center. And so you didn't know exactly what he was. He had a lot of talent and he was kind of multidimensional, a big dude that could play some power basketball but really can shoot it. But you didn't know. [52:41] said about how he's labeled now this season all year man like every time we saw the Knicks saw Mike Brown like we were asking before the game because Cat was the number one topic of conversation in New York surrounding the Knicks because it was like up and down offensively sometimes just didn't seem very included sometimes it was less like man he doesn't really fit he doesn't seem like he's even happy like in this offense like running this offense [53:04] He didn't seem happy. [53:06] They changed it. They changed it midseason and then really changed it in the playoffs. Here's what I wanted to say about them. Despite all [53:16] of that bill every night the guy rebounded it was like death taxes and

[53:21] and 13 rebounds from garland and towns and so that helped them continue to win and it's how you end possessions by securing the defensive glass so that was there every night and i'm this guy is not a guy that's like gobbling up soft rebounds he's not getting you know six a game off miss free throw he gets physical tough rebounds in traffic where he used his body and he has been this physical presence for them in that starting lineup defensively even on the nights when he only [53:51] That's changed, I think, the way a lot of people maybe have viewed him. This guy is now a great fit for what they're doing. And I just love those kind of stories because he's a great, [54:03] uh, person, like he's kid way, he's raised well, like he's, he's polite. He's just a good dude. And it was like, he had a lot of talent. You were kind of just wondering what, what is his, what is his ultimate label in this league? And I think this is like now the perfect situation for him to be appreciated and admired for like what he is capable of doing. Um, and he's, he's been just a bigger part of this, but the good thing is they don't have to get it from any one of these dudes on any given night because they're all doing it. So it could one guy, one guy can have [54:33] Everybody else right now is in such rhythm. It doesn't matter. [54:36] Well, the other thing about when you talk about the appreciation, [54:40] That's the other thing at stake for these guys and – [54:43] Yeah, I haven't heard... [54:45] I'd say everybody's been talking about the Knicks for the last couple of days, but you win the title. [54:49] You can see it with the guys who didn't win the title, who didn't even really make the playoffs.

[54:54] that are still invited to these games and are part of the past with the Knicks guys like, Oh yeah. Stefan Marbury. I don't think he won a playoff series. You know, Ewing obviously made the finals starts did, but if these guys win, you know, [55:06] Towns could be strolling back in there. [55:08] 35 years from now, it could be 70 years old. Oh, there's no – In a standing ovation. Like, that's some of the stuff that's at stake here. I mean, are you kidding me? They're at the place now where, like, Jose Alvarado would get that treatment if they win this because he's so popular there with, like, his energy and, like, what he does. So – and by the way, to your point, I've never seen that many former players showing up at games at the same time ever in this league. That's just not – Yeah, not even the Celtics have that many. [55:38] different eras and stuff. It's really cool, man. They're all kind of vibing on this. And the city is obviously just so electric right now. [55:45] I don't know what that city is going to look like if they actually pull this off and win it. I don't know how you're getting out of the arena. [55:53] I don't know. We brain fortunately knows all the tunnels and stuff. So you can get out of there if you have to after the game, although he'll probably stay there and be, you know, back there, you know, [56:03] because he's a look at the guy's a Knicks fan you know he's the most unbiased broadcaster I've ever seen when he calls Knicks games he's every bit as enthusiastic for the other team and whatnot but he calls Knicks games he's a life lifelong Knicks fan everybody knows that um and you know here he is with an opportunity he's going to be calling his first finals as the lead play-by-play guy with the Knicks in the finals so it's kind of a interesting dynamic to it as well uh but he's yeah that thing is obviously the best in the business I'm lucky to be sitting next to him

[56:31] Yeah, he's been a Knicks fan since age seven. [56:34] But I think you geek out. The Knicks fan side of you geeks out before and after the games, right? You're doing the game. You're just doing your job. It's almost like you're an airplane pilot. [56:44] You're just moving all the levers. He's setting you guys up. You're just lost in the game. [56:49] But I'm sure there's got to be moments when he's just like, holy shit. [56:53] So it's the fucking finals. We made it. I'm here. [56:56] We actually have a chance to win. Jesus. What's crazy is for all Knicks fans, think this, like how quickly they just dispatched of the conference. [57:05] Yeah. Like, like, that's the thing that you're going into this, you're going into this, you're the three seed. [57:10] But you think you've got a chance. You're like, okay, you know, Detroit, unproven. They've got some offensive issues. The Boston is missing. Got Tatum back late, but, like, they're not quite the same. We're a three seed, but we have a real chance. And then what happens? The one and two get taken out for you. So you don't even deal with the one and the two. And now you find yourself with home court advantage. And you lose Indiana, who's your nemesis. They're not even there to begin with. They're dealing with stuff. So, like, and now you go, okay, going into the playoffs, [57:40] hopeful and [57:41] But but nervous like you would be like, we don't know exactly how it's going to go to like completely dismantling the Eastern Conference. [57:49] Like just such clockwork, the first round knockouts night after night. And here they are sitting there with all this time off. [57:58] waiting to play whoever's coming out of the West. [58:00] You know, sometimes that's just how it goes. I even feel like the 2024 Celtics, two years ago,

[58:06] I don't know if they would have beaten Denver. [58:08] But we never found out because Denver never made it. And the way it just lined up was perfect for them. Sometimes that's what happens. Like Milwaukee in 2021, where the Nets just fall apart as that series happens. Phoenix somehow... [58:23] Ends up in the finals. Davis gets hurt. And just a couple of things. [58:28] A couple things go your way, and that's what happens when it's a year. The Knicks have been healthy. They gelled at the perfect time, and it feels like something magical is happening. That's really the key to it. It's so rare. [58:39] It's so rare for a team to hit perfect rhythm. Their absolute peak and beyond probably any reasonable expectations for what their peak was. They actually smashed through what their ceiling was at this time of year at exactly the right time that you have to have it. And to do it now and then sustain it series after series with one more series to go. We'll see how it goes. But they've got some work to do left in the West. [59:05] Well, you get to call the games. [59:07] Hopefully you'll finally get a good series. Talk about getting boned over with, uh, with drama and a playoffs there. Did you, [59:13] Did you call one good game? [59:15] You guys are like 0 for 7. I think it's Richard's fault. I don't think you should take the blame. I think it's Richard's fault. We did the Nick comeback game against Cleveland. Oh, that was a good one. Okay, so you're 1 for 7. [59:27] Yeah, because we called the whole conference finals. Yeah, I forgot. So you got one good one. [59:33] I'm trying to think. We did a game, a Philly-Boston game.

[59:38] When Embiid came back and they beat Boston, [59:41] And Embiid was great in the second half. Was that game five? Game five, yeah. I didn't really enjoy that game. That was a huge fan of that one. That was a good game, at least. Like, it was some drama to that. I'm trying to think. [59:54] maybe there was one more, but no, for the most part... Well, the Brunson game was awesome, so you at least had one good win. I mean, it was the greatest comeback under the circumstances in the history of the league, so yeah, that was like... I was still... Actually, the next morning, I was in the hotel room in New York, and I was still... [1:00:12] I was still kind of really processing what I just watched. Yeah. [1:00:17] because of how big they were down with that amount of time to play and what Brunson did. And the beginning of that run, take a look at the first two or three shots he hit. [1:00:29] They're incredibly difficult shots. He hit one off the backboard that I have no idea how it didn't go flying off the backboard. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, I was like, how did he have touch on that? [1:00:40] The ball hit the white stripe on the top, on the very top. [1:00:44] From the right of right off the right lane. And he's shooting it this way. Exactly. I just don't know how that went in. [1:00:50] Yeah, I remember that happened live, and then I got to do the replay on that particular shot. And now as I'm talking, it's super slow-mo, high def, and so you're watching this ball. And I'm like, it just kept going up and up. Because the first time you saw it live, I wasn't exactly sure where it hit. I know it was up there. And then you see the replay, and it hit the white stripe.

[1:01:09] on the top of the backboard from that angle and went straight through. And that's when you're like, are you kidding me? That's still, they're down like 18 when he hit that. [1:01:17] And you're like, okay, that's what it took to get down 18. How are you going to finish this off? So it's just been unreal. [1:01:24] Quickly on Cleveland. [1:01:26] They announced Atkinson and the front office is coming back today. They're set up now for... [1:01:31] a LeBron comeback that I don't think will happen, but at least on paper, it could be discussed. [1:01:36] They have to get under the luxury tax system. [1:01:39] Whatever team we just watched is not a team that's going to win four straight playoff rounds. So they're going to have to figure out how do we pay less money? [1:01:46] How do we shift stuff? They're stuck with Harden now because they obviously made some wink-wink. Come to us. We'll blow up the last year of a deal. We'll give you a shorter deal to save some money. [1:01:56] What's the move? If you had to pick Mobley, Allen, or Mitchell... [1:02:01] As the move for them. [1:02:03] to reset the team and, [1:02:07] and maybe try to shed some money and move the roster in a different direction. Who is the guy you would look at? [1:02:14] The guy look at to move or to keep. [1:02:16] To move. [1:02:18] If you had to get rid of one, who makes the least sense for them? Or would you cut ties with Mitchell at this point? What would you do? [1:02:26] I don't think I would cut ties on Mitchell, no. I still think when you have a guy like that, and even in this series, first of all, I don't think he was right. I think he had something going on with his groin. He was limping a little bit. You guys were talking about that a bunch. He didn't have the lips sometimes.

[1:02:42] I don't think, I'm trying to think, I don't think he had a dunk in the series. [1:02:45] Hmm. [1:02:46] Okay, you're talking about a guy that's like he's going to get one or two of those rim attacks a game where he takes off, right? And ties a tomahawk on somebody. He didn't really have any of it. It's weird because he still had pretty good numbers for the series overall. Like the only guy that did. You know why he was not going to be? Because he was worn out from the 14 games it took to beat the two teams they were better at. That's like their fault. I think that was a big factor, Bill. And I think, you know, it's a big factor. He played every other day for like a month. [1:03:14] You should have won those series in five. It was their own fault, but it still is a factor. You don't know how much of a factor until you run into a fresh team like they did. Then you're like, it was... [1:03:27] Avis. [1:03:28] So you would look at Mobley or Allen trying to choose between those two? Probably Mobley. And I think I was a little disappointed in this series just because, [1:03:36] Like, [1:03:37] He shoots decent percentage from the field. [1:03:40] He'll have some games where he does decent rebounding numbers, but he just has stretches of games where you don't notice them. Offensively, now we're what? He's four years in? [1:03:49] He's 25 years old. [1:03:51] And you're like, you just wanted that next progression. He's a little bit better three-point shooter, probably much better than when he came in the league. But he's not like he's out there shooting 40%. He's in the mid-30s. He can make them. He made like one or two, I think, in probably every game in this series. That's great. He added that. But like... [1:04:08] It's just the impact and the force that you wanted to play with for the entire game because he has a lot of talent and he hasn't really been able to.

[1:04:16] to kind of find that gear. So, [1:04:18] Um, [1:04:19] Maybe it would be him. I don't think it would be Mitchell. [1:04:22] Would you trade him for Giannis? [1:04:25] Oh, for sure. [1:04:26] For sure, because of the... [1:04:29] Where Mitchell is. [1:04:32] in the stage of his career. And being stuck with Harden, too, now for two years. So now it's like you're giving yourself a two-year window. That's what I'm saying. So I don't think that it would make sense for me in certain situations with Giannis. [1:04:44] Um, what, [1:04:47] depending on where it was, it does in this case. [1:04:50] Because that window is like now, like every year is now going forward. So that would be the immediacy that you need in a guy that's built, that can get you through a deep playoff run. And he's going to play with force against any defense and all of those things. And he's won a championship. That would be probably, you know, a place that I would say, yeah, that makes sense. [1:05:08] So if we sat in a log cabin and talked about this for two weeks straight, I think we would come to this conclusion. [1:05:13] How are we going to win four straight rounds if our guards are Mitchell and Harden? [1:05:17] How are we going to defend? There's too many good perimeter guys in the league. How are we going to be able to defend these guys when we need both those guys on the floor and [1:05:25] One of them at all times is going to be exposed. The Mitchell is slightly better than Harden. [1:05:29] One of the things I did post-mortem on them on a sports radio station in Cleveland, it was what do they need to do? What's it look like? Assuming you're going forward with Mitchell and Harden, so they've got to get much more athletic.

[1:05:46] on the wings. They've got to get tougher guys. They've got to get, um, you know, you maybe have to sacrifice some of the guys that can shoot for you because they didn't even shoot that in this series at all. So you need to have some guys with a little bit better, um, you know, you need to [1:06:00] um switchability factor a little bit better where you have options as a coach on what matchups you want to see and guys that can run and get after the open floor and play with that aggressive force because you're seeing the teams that are lasting in this league they've got some guys like that and they didn't really have a lot of that they got the two bigs they play well together both talented guys the two guards [1:06:22] Bunch of shooters, role players for the most part beyond that. But there was an overall physical toughness that they were not bringing to the Knicks. [1:06:32] that it was so obvious. And, I mean, you saw it other times with Cleveland, but it was really exposed in that series. And so, look, they've already made the decision to move forward with Kenny Atkinson, and they're going to go from there. And now I think they've got to retool the supporting cast [1:06:45] and probably move one of those [1:06:48] thanks [1:06:49] I mean, the flip side would be it's a 30-team league and they finish fourth. [1:06:54] I don't know when you start talking yourself into that side of the narrative. I just don't think Mitchell and Harden, you could win four straight – [1:07:00] Seriously that I don't really love Alan and Moby together either. So I would probably get a little more creative. [1:07:05] All right. How are you feeling about the commanders? [1:07:08] Decent. Getting ready for minicamps. This time of year, I always feel amazing. Favorite part, right? Favorite part of the year. It's the greatest time of the year. Schedule comes out. For a fan of a team that has struggled that long, yes, man. Schedule release, although we had a tough schedule earlier. Schedule release, and then every day I'm reading about the OTAs, and I'm just reading about these guys in minicamp and who's impressing. And Styles looks amazing, apparently. He's already the leader of the defense. He's going to be calling the plays

[1:07:38] the stuff I want to hear. So really excited, but it will always come down to the health of Jay Daniels. End of story. [1:07:46] I'm just excited there hasn't been a story about my Patriots in a week. So hopefully we can keep that going. [1:07:53] I will, and I think the one thing we're going to get, Bill, and I don't like making big predictions, but I do feel really good – [1:08:00] I know we've had a lot of lopsided games, blowouts, maybe in the postseason. We wanted more on a given night. I think the finals are going to be incredible. Whoever comes out of the West, I don't see that being a five-game series with three lopsided games. I don't see it. The Knicks don't go away. The teams coming out of the West, they don't go away. They fight. They're talented. They're deep. They defend. I don't know. I think we could be set up for this incredibly epic NBA Finals. [1:08:29] And all the rest the Knicks get [1:08:32] you know, last round, this round, like you can't sleep on that either. If this OKC San Antonio goes seven, they play Thursday, [1:08:38] They play Saturday. They have a couple days. All of a sudden, they're going again, and the Knicks are just [1:08:43] you know, getting healthy. [1:08:45] running plays, [1:08:46] Having bonding pizza nights. All right, Tim Legler. Say hi to the ref for me. Please give him a congratulations. Good to see you. We're going to be coming back, take a break, come back with Brian Koppelman right after this. [1:08:59] Uber Eats makes last minute gifting easy, whether it's Mother's Day, Father's Day, graduation, whatever, you blink, they're here. But just because it's snuck up on you doesn't mean your gift has to feel like it. The Uber Eats gift hub has something for everyone, flowers, perfume, champagne, even their favorite takeout order. It can show up as little as 25 minutes, even if you just remembered five minutes ago. The best part, you can add a video message and a personal note so it actually feels like you planned it all along. Order on Uber Eats today,

[1:09:28] Must be 21 or older to purchase alcohol. Product availability varies per region. See app for details. [1:09:35] All playoffs long, I've been looking through the slates, trying to come up with some good picks. [1:09:40] From Fando Sportsbook to throw on my Twitter feed, usually my favorite parlay, some [1:09:44] some add-ons if you want to get a, [1:09:47] get a little wacky with a longer shot. So I'm definitely going to be doing something [1:09:52] for game six and probably zagging against whoever lost in game five, zagging the other way for game six. Because I think this series just – [1:10:02] It just reeks of seven. [1:10:04] But we'll see what happens. I will have that pick on Thursday morning for game six when I bet. [1:10:09] about Fando. It's a brand I trust. Easy to build by NBA bets. [1:10:12] on Fandle. I know I'm getting great odds, payouts on my parlays, boosts every day. [1:10:18] And you get your winnings instantly on FanDuel. FanDuel.com. [1:10:21] Play your game. [1:10:23] All right, my friend Brian Koppelman is here. I just want to mention he didn't want to come on. [1:10:27] And I reminded him. [1:10:30] You've come on so many times dating back to the ESPN days to talk about the Knicks and it was always sad circumstances. [1:10:37] unhappy, [1:10:39] Why did God do this to me? I don't understand. We talked about our friend Goldman who [1:10:45] passed away in the late 2010s. The last finals he saw was 1999. [1:10:51] I missed all this. And that was what I said to you, Koppelman. I was like, you know what? [1:10:56] You're about to make the finals. This is the most fun Knicks team of this century by far.

[1:11:01] It's a really special team, even regardless of what happens in the finals. And you have to come on and talk about it. So you're here. [1:11:08] Yeah, we made the finals. We're not about to. We made the finals. It's very exciting. [1:11:13] I didn't want to come on because I don't want to jinx it. [1:11:17] I really just want to be the... [1:11:20] I'm here as just a, I'm such a fan. Look, my first memory, because this is like you and your dad, you know, and you and your kids. My very first memory is a human being. [1:11:30] is being with my father, who died three years ago, but being with my dad at the Knicks. I was turning five years old. And that's literally the first memory I have is Madison Square Garden with my dad watching the Knicks. That's how important... [1:11:44] This team is to me, it's, it's, you know, in the fabric of my life, it's the best thing about sports is these connect and the worst thing is these connections we have to these teams, what they mean because of the memories we share with people. Like these times get you corny, get me corny, and I can't help it because I'm literally thinking of a guy named Bobby Angler who grew up across the [1:12:09] And he would wear... [1:12:10] Walt Frazier's number and I'd wear Earl Monroe's number. And we'd play one-on-one all day and all night long as... [1:12:18] Earl and Clyde when we were little kids. And like we still, he's four years old and we still text each other when the Knicks are in the playoffs. Like from when we were seven and he was, you know, 10 and I was seven. He was turning 11. It's like it matters to my college friends who I went to games with,

[1:12:36] some of whom I still am in touch with, some of whom I don't talk to that much. They're texting me. [1:12:42] Not because I'm a special Knick fan, but because we're all Knick fans and care so much. And so, yeah, I don't want to jinx anything. I'm just so happy to be in the finals. [1:12:53] Every single person involved with the Knicks, [1:12:56] They've just done an incredible job. And Jalen Brunson's the truth. [1:13:01] So this segment is brought to you by New Era, ironically, because this feels like a new era for Knicks fans. You think of... [1:13:09] the 2000s and the 2010s. [1:13:13] And all the crummy things that happen. And then Leon and Wes take over. [1:13:17] All-Star Weekend 2020, a month before COVID. [1:13:21] And... [1:13:22] with really one goal. [1:13:24] How do we basically recreate the 2004 Pistons with Rashid and Billups and all these dudes? How do we think outside the box and try to put a contender together? [1:13:34] If we're never going to have, if we're never going to luck out with the lottery. [1:13:38] Nobody wanted to just do the latter thing again because the Knicks had done that a million times. How do we think outside the box? [1:13:44] When did you start believing in the vision? What year did you start believing in the vision? [1:13:47] Did you think this is actually... [1:13:49] something that was going to work. [1:13:52] Well, in the beginning, [1:13:55] I didn't know. [1:13:56] Right. And you know what happened is, I mean, you were involved in part of what made me [1:14:01] be a believer was, [1:14:03] I ended up taking a walk with Wes. [1:14:06] And we called you and, um,

[1:14:10] you were like, this guy, these guys... [1:14:15] They mean it. [1:14:17] And, um, and Wes, as you know, is look, Leon's obviously a visionary with figuring out how to put this team together, but Wes, um, [1:14:24] is this incredible connector of people and built this belief system. Yeah. So I think Wes was going to find all these people who were like lifelong Knicks fans. [1:14:36] and trying to convert them into becoming believers. But it's about all about jailing. Just like things are different now. Just trust us. Like, we get it. [1:14:46] We have the right vision in place. He would convey that they really cared so much about turning this around and... [1:14:53] They kind of put their own net, like they would say, [1:14:57] like judge us based on how we do. You know, so many people in those roles want to run from responsibility, and I felt right from the beginning that [1:15:08] Those guys were saying... [1:15:09] No, we know what we're saying we can do and we're going to do it. But I can't. I don't. I look. [1:15:17] There's a lot of... [1:15:19] Anyone who's a sports fan of a team that has... [1:15:23] lost for a really long time or not. [1:15:26] not lived up to the promises. [1:15:28] knows that it starts to feel a little bit like, [1:15:32] Post-traumatic stress. And you don't you just are so accustomed to getting disappointed and hurt. And it is such a joy. So, like, for instance, the Jalen Brunson move. Yeah. So many people want to say, oh, I knew it. I'll be honest. I had no idea that that was a smart thing until I started watching him.

[1:15:53] And by the end of the first season, it was so clear that, [1:15:57] that we had a guy... [1:16:00] who was one of the smartest people in the league, [1:16:03] one of the true leaders in the league, [1:16:07] I mean, a guy who is available to fans like communicates, but his emotional range is that of like the greatest leaders in sports. Would you see what Mike Brown said today? [1:16:21] - Yeah, you told me, I mean, say it, 'cause you saw it before I saw it, yeah. - Yeah, they asked something about Jalen Brunson as the leader, [1:16:29] And he compared him to Steph Curry and Tim Duncan, two other guys have been around now. [1:16:33] Anyone in basketball would say those have been the two best culture setter leaders in [1:16:38] that we've had [1:16:40] basically in the last 35 years since Magic. [1:16:43] Um, [1:16:44] And for him to mention those two guys as a comparison, I was like, whoa, that's [1:16:49] That's not faint praise. That's like a real thing to say. It's so great for something to be [1:16:55] Like, um... [1:16:56] a positive surprise when it comes to the Knicks. You know, you're right when you talked about 1999 and then sort of the years of like the angry Knicks fan. And I know I personified that sometimes. You know, I wrote about I mean, for you, I wrote a lot of articles about. [1:17:15] being angry about being happy when Spree came back and made the chokes, you know, that, that, that signed to the owner. But I'll tell you something like,

[1:17:26] This has turned me around completely. First of all, I never stopped going. I've had tickets, [1:17:32] Since 1989, I had one ticket. My friend Alan Havy had the other. [1:17:36] And Havy and I, then Havy moved to California 12 years in when I could afford both tickets. And I had the two seats. [1:17:45] since, but I've had seats since 89. [1:17:47] And so this is just an incredibly meaningful, great thing. And yeah. [1:17:53] If this is as far as it goes, it's a win to get back to the finals. I started taking my son, Sam... [1:17:59] Right when he was the age I was when I started going four or five years old. [1:18:03] He's had some, you know, we've had long walks back. I wrote about the long walk. Brutal run for him. Yeah, because it was basically the reverse situation of what I had with my dad. [1:18:12] I had my dad and we're winning titles the first year we went and we had Larry Bird. And meanwhile, poor Sammy had nothing. [1:18:19] He had that Carmelo in round two once. [1:18:22] And Lone Sanity for three weeks. [1:18:24] Yeah, he just watched all of these disappointments, and he still wears a Knicks hat almost every day, and [1:18:30] No matter, you know, he's just a diehard fan. [1:18:33] And, um, [1:18:35] I do think that these guys have put together an incredible squad. I mean, you think about that day that Jalen, I love that this clip resurfaces all the time, but you rarely see an athlete in such an open moment, even in this era, Bill, such an unguarded moment is when he found out. Oh, the Josh Hart trade? Yeah, yeah. And almost the opposite of the way people, when the Luka thing happened and people were getting it. When he found out that Josh Hart was traded to the Knicks, it's almost like he knew all of this.

[1:19:04] Like he started jumping up and down because he knew, oh, you put like my best friend, this guy who I know exactly how to make him better. I know I can count on him. He makes me better. He's going to throw his because, you know, Josh Hart is. [1:19:18] such still underrated and he's just [1:19:21] so perfect on this team, you know, and, you know, [1:19:25] The whole team, I mean, even what Mitchell said the other day, right? You've got a team of guys. [1:19:29] who somehow are just hearts on their sleeves, [1:19:33] You know, Jay was the only one who's kind of guarded, even on his own podcast. He's still guarded. He's the leader. But everyone else on the team. [1:19:40] They're the opposite of Guarded. [1:19:42] They just let you know what they're thinking and what they're feeling. And, um, [1:19:46] They're in it. I mean, even Rick Brunson, who will like argue with somebody. And yeah, it's it's really been an incredible thing to watch and we know part of. [1:19:57] It's so hard to put together a possible championship team. [1:20:01] without one of the best five guys in the league. [1:20:04] Because really the last team that was able to do this [1:20:09] was that 0-4 Pistons team. [1:20:11] The Knicks have... [1:20:12] Nobody, I don't think anybody who's been first team on NBA. [1:20:16] So, like, let's say if they win four more, they win the title. I think Jalen got no votes for first team this year. He was never going to. I had a vote. He was never. It was Cade or Jalen for the last spot. Once Luka became eligible, Jalen... [1:20:30] was second team. But the Knicks were... [1:20:33] It wasn't a disappointing season, but it wasn't like the greatest regular season either, right? It was...

[1:20:38] I think there was as many questions as answers. [1:20:41] Heading into the playoffs, they were like 7-1 just to even win the East. [1:20:46] Um, [1:20:47] I don't think a ton of people were picking them and people really weren't sure. I think what was so shocking was the, [1:20:55] So how this became this selfless, old-school, Bill Bradley-era Knicks team, [1:21:00] over the last 11 games. Even watching somebody like Towns just not care about [1:21:05] He's still got pimps anymore. And just, but I'm just here to rebound, make some good passes and not have dumb fouls. [1:21:11] And then makes all these incredible shots. But I think that... [1:21:16] Yeah, I think this is great. So you say the thing about the top five players, you know, [1:21:19] Well, you could argue if he wins the title, he then becomes a top five player. But nobody thinks that way now. [1:21:26] player in the league. But I also think what you said about leadership, [1:21:30] Maybe it's got to be a top, because if he is the best leader currently, because Steph, but they're out of the place. He is currently like the best leader in a way. [1:21:38] The team has taken on [1:21:41] His characteristics, meaning the team, his character, really, because he is a guy who will sacrifice. He'll sacrifice his body. He'll keep getting up. [1:21:49] He'll keep trying to write. How many fourth quarters has he had after games when he hasn't, [1:21:54] necessarily shot the ball well. That's the big thing is that I never feel like the Knicks are out of a game when they're down 15 because of him. [1:22:02] You know, it's like, here we go. Okay. And he just, he is a guy. I was, I mean, I asked you this earlier, um, because it is a great thing, the texting, right? You and I have been texting about the Knicks since as long as we've had text, the ability to text and known each other over 20 years now. Right.

[1:22:18] And even I texted you in the first game of the Hawks series to be like when Jalen had that opening quarter that was so incredible, you know, and it's like. [1:22:27] This guy... [1:22:30] to me, you know, sometimes even Knick fans will get on him. And I don't understand it. And they'll say, share the ball. And I... [1:22:37] On the one hand, it's part of that thing of feeling like all these years of being disappointed. But when I watch this kid, I don't see a guy who's... [1:22:46] who is selfish. I see somebody who knows his job [1:22:50] is to take charge of the game. And whether that means take charge of it by scoring, take charge of it by making a great pass, take charge of it by taking a charge. He's just willing to do whatever it takes. And I think the other guys see that. Yeah. And they get fired up. The charges are a big piece of that, too. Yeah, he does... [1:23:07] He's not the best defender, but he is in the right places all the time and he fights. [1:23:13] which is really all you can ask for. The Brunson-centric thing, [1:23:17] I do feel like something shifted the last three, four weeks. [1:23:21] where [1:23:22] Once whatever that little wrinkle is of moving towns away from the basket and running stuff through him. [1:23:28] It just made them less predictable because I felt like they had the same issues that [1:23:32] You'll sometimes see with Luka teams. You always see with the great Harden teams that never made it. [1:23:37] The Celtics would get like this. You can kind of predict what they're going to do every play. And I think in a series, that becomes hard. [1:23:45] Because you're just doing the same thing seven games in a row and teams get used to it.

[1:23:49] I felt like what was going on with the Knicks with... [1:23:52] Now I don't really know what you're going to do. And now you're running as much as possible. You're getting these fast break points that, [1:23:59] you know, you would kind of come and go. And all of a sudden, it felt like this complete team overnight. [1:24:04] Well, whatever happened when we were down 2-1, you know, that's the only time in this playoffs... [1:24:10] Got that. [1:24:11] I thought we were going to lose game one when we were down in this series, but I didn't think we were going to lose this series, not even for a second. [1:24:19] But when we were down 2-1, [1:24:21] I really did feel like [1:24:24] I so supported... [1:24:25] the Mike Brown move, bringing him in. It made total sense to me. But I doubted it when we were down 2-1. I was like, I... [1:24:33] Don't understand how we got here. And then seeing what they did, because 2-1 felt bad, right? It felt like the past in a way. And that was the one moment that I wavered. [1:24:44] And, um... [1:24:46] In the whole thing, like in the last four years, that's like the one moment. Because once they brought Jalen in, I thought Wes... [1:24:53] And Leon have just proven it. They put this squad together. They know. I'm in their hands. But down to one, I became just like... [1:25:02] all the commentators who take shots at them. And I, [1:25:07] I wish I would have had more faith in that moment, but that was the moment when I was like, what is this? And then, though, seeing what happened in the next game and the next game, [1:25:18] I was like, right, don't ever fucking doubt this guy and this squad. We may not win.

[1:25:23] Wendy, [1:25:24] You know, you got the two. [1:25:26] I mean, a lot of people would say the two best players in the NBA. A lot of people are already saying Wemby's going to come down as the best player in the history. [1:25:33] of the NBA. [1:25:35] And it does seem hard, but I have the faith, man. I just totally, I'm full Tug McGraw. You got to believe. [1:25:43] And now it's time for Eric Comp, brought to you by New Era, the official cap of the NBA. We know today's players are incredible. We know they shaped... [1:25:52] A lot of the styles of the players watching today, they shape the game we were watching today. [1:25:57] The new era NBA Hardwood Classics collection celebrates [1:26:01] those iconic moments that, [1:26:03] and the players who made them unforgettable. So we'll put eras side by side, 2000s. [1:26:09] And now I was thinking, I'm, [1:26:10] Two good ones for this. One is Stefan Castle. [1:26:13] who I feel like you could have just easily thrown into the Pacers Pistons world. [1:26:19] 2003, 2004 Bloodbast series that they had. And he could have played for either team and given you like, [1:26:27] Some of what Steven Jackson was giving you in that series or... [1:26:30] A little Tayshaun Prince. But I felt like he just would have been happy in that series. But the big comp. Let's go Wemby and Yao. [1:26:38] I feel like Yao has just been completely forgotten. [1:26:41] only played eight seasons. His body broke down as it went along, but there was a moment with Yao [1:26:47] when we started to wonder... [1:26:50] could this guy take over the league someday? I think he got

[1:26:54] I think he got up to probably 25 and 10 at one point, but he was seven foot six. He didn't move like Wemby does. He was a pure center. [1:27:02] But had that same kind of overpowering, holy crap, how is anybody going to defend this guy when he was close to the basket? [1:27:09] And unlike Wembe, he was just carrying so much more weight. It was harder for him to move up and down when you saw him in person. [1:27:15] Um, [1:27:16] It was just, it was like, man, I don't know how long this one's going to last. [1:27:20] And that's the difference with Wemby. When you watch Wemby in person, even though he's an alien and he's subfoot seven, [1:27:27] The way he moves is just different. Like, it doesn't... It just seems... [1:27:33] There's an athleticism to him. There's a grace to him. He carries his weight. [1:27:37] the right way. Doesn't seem like he's carrying too much weight. But I thought [1:27:41] Yeah, there was a moment there when it really seemed like it would have been shocking if Yow didn't win a title. Anyway, relive vintage logos and timeless icons with the new era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection. Available in a wide range of silhouettes, including the iconic fitted 5950 or adjustables like the 940 A-frame and 970 A-frame. [1:28:02] and some great hardwood classics apparel too. [1:28:04] Here's what you have to do. Visit neweracap.com slash ringer. [1:28:10] to shop now, and you can use one-time code ringer, [1:28:13] for 20% off your first order. [1:28:16] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [1:28:19] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors.

[1:28:26] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [1:28:30] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. [1:28:50] Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [1:28:56] Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck, and the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one, your buddy, your sister, ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something, and maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet, together let's drive. Visit chevy.com slash trucks to explore the lineup. [1:29:24] I want to pour some settle down juice on everyone who says Brunson, if they win the title, is the best Nick ever, because that's a classic... [1:29:32] recency bias thing and [1:29:35] really does a disservice to just go read up on... [1:29:39] Well, Frazier for like five minutes. [1:29:42] But with that said, [1:29:44] I do think he has a chance to be the most beloved Nick ever. [1:29:48] Right. Which is an interesting conversation. [1:29:51] Right there with Clyde. Clyde is still so beloved. I got to be honest. That mid-80s Bernard, even though it was a blip, was... That's my favorite. As you know, that's my favorite Nick of all time. But I think he's in the conversation. I just don't think it lasted long enough. But to me, it's like Clyde...

[1:30:09] Bernard and then Willis because of coming out and dragging his leg around in a game seven. [1:30:14] Um, [1:30:15] But I think Brunson making the finals, people are at least allowed to have the conversation now. Bernard King, April 27th, 1984, my 18th birthday. [1:30:27] Bernard against the Pistons when Isaiah had one of the great games ever. One of the best playoff games ever. [1:30:34] But Bernard had a better game, and we won in five. And it was one of the greatest. If you go, like, that game's available. Go watch that game, and you'll understand what Bernard King was able to do. [1:30:44] That said, [1:30:47] It it you're right. [1:30:50] Right now, the most beloved Knicks are those guys. Jeremy Lin is one of the most beloved Knicks. He really is. But for me, but and I mean, I'm 60 years old now. I turned 60 this year and I love Jeremy Lin for what he gave us for those three weeks. [1:31:06] But yeah, Shalen Brunson, that's the top guy. He hit the final stage. [1:31:14] In the Game 1 Cleveland game. [1:31:16] where they're down 22 and there's seven and a half minutes left. [1:31:19] And it's a wrap. You shouldn't be watching. [1:31:22] And normally sometimes when we'll do the pod, when we have to go live, [1:31:25] I'll text whoever the guest is and our producers. I'll be like, hey, let's go with three minutes. This game's going to be done. [1:31:31] did not, as I mentioned that night, did not send the text because it's like, got to at least see what happens here with the Knicks. [1:31:36] What was interesting about it is how the crowd...

[1:31:40] Everyone was locked in kind of waiting to see if it would unfold over the next couple of minutes like it did with Brunson. My son, Sammy, never lost the face. They were down 18 and they were recognizing what was happening. And that's like the final level of being really. [1:31:54] Really great in those situations. Sammy never lost the faith. I did. I didn't think we were coming back. Really? It was really an incredible. I didn't think so. Against James Harden? [1:32:02] Well, that's a good point. Oh, can you explain this to me? But Sam never lost faith for one second, which I was very proud of him that he didn't lose faith. [1:32:11] What do you make of Harden just [1:32:13] San, I still think... [1:32:15] We're the better team. I don't know what to say. When people say, after a sweep, when you say that, that... [1:32:23] Almost feels like an IQ test. [1:32:25] You can say it if it's a 4-3. [1:32:28] And even if it's a 4-2 and you completely blew three of the four, but if you get swept, [1:32:33] And you roll over. [1:32:35] In a game four to the point that the announcers at halftime barked. It was just clowning them. [1:32:40] at halftime. Like, you can't say you're a better team. [1:32:43] No, what a, I mean, I watched every second of that game last night, and, [1:32:47] Watching them just not even... [1:32:49] I don't want to say not care because they're professional athletes. [1:32:53] I'm sure they did tear, but just they kept getting beat down court over and over again. Those rebounds that felt like one of those games when you play in high school when the other team was so much better coach than you. Yeah. And you would just be looking behind like, how did that guy get down there again? You know, right. I mean, I remember those. I can remember playing in those kind of games and just feeling like totally they were completely out out man and out class. It was a wrap. But yeah, it was a weird one.

[1:33:18] This feels like Jalen Brunson. I'm trying to find the sports... [1:33:22] analog for this guy. He has just the greatest characteristics of [1:33:26] So many. He's almost like... [1:33:29] He's almost like the way Brad Gilbert would constantly win, and he was four in the world, and no one could believe he was four in the world in tennis. But he just would get to, I mean, there was a time Brad Gilbert was the fourth, number four player in the world. And that may be where this guy... [1:33:43] this guy finds himself yeah i remember when you pitched us a 30 episode brad gilbert narrative podcast we had to turn i still think we should i think i just wanted you to co-host and i remember you said you could only do every other episode and then i said will mallory do the other ones and you were like that i don't know if i can lend her for that and then that blew up the whole thing which was here here's the thing with brunson and i think you need this when you have the amount of baggage that a team like the knicks have [1:34:08] Right, you almost need some sort of supernatural human being event [1:34:13] to... [1:34:14] make people who are prone just not to believe anymore to flip their minds. For the Red Sox, [1:34:20] It was Ortiz. [1:34:22] It was Ortiz in 04. [1:34:24] Just the slow realization over the course of those four Yankee comeback games that we had Ortiz and like that there was something magical about this guy. [1:34:33] Brunson, now whether he can keep this going for the finals, we'll see, but [1:34:38] Brunson at least has done that for the Knicks fans, where they're not thinking about what's the worst case scenario. Because the thing we didn't talk about was that Halliburton game a year ago. [1:34:46] Where it's like all the skeletons come out of the poltergeist pool in that game.

[1:34:50] It's like, wait, I thought we were past this. Oh, yeah. [1:34:54] We haven't won since 73. [1:34:56] I was there. I mean, yeah, yeah, that was just brutal. [1:35:04] That series. [1:35:06] almost crushed me. But the truth is, and that's obviously why Tibbs is gone, but that didn't... [1:35:13] That didn't actually dim my enthusiasm for this. [1:35:17] team. [1:35:19] Every move these guys are like, I was upset when they traded Dante because I thought the three guys together was so important, like to have the core from Villanova. [1:35:27] And they were right. Like, they're just right. Leon and Wes... [1:35:32] are just right a lot. And that is such an odd thing to think about the people running this team. It's not that odd. And I wonder, like if I'm an owner... [1:35:42] If I was an owner for a losing team, I would have meetings trying to figure out, okay, here are the four teams, the three teams, the two teams that succeeded this year. Why? What are the reasons? [1:35:52] And if I'm looking at the Knicks, [1:35:54] And I'm thinking like, well, how did they put this team together? Because they hired guys who were like relationships guys. [1:36:00] They were guys that in the other business they had, which were, you know, they're basically player agents, representatives. [1:36:06] And they're targeting people from age 15, 16, 17, 18. They're making bets on people. [1:36:12] They're trying to, if they're not just looking at talent, they're looking at how somebody behaves, what their background was, you know, how, what their work ethic is, how competitive they are.

[1:36:23] Because ultimately they're betting on those guys as representatives because they're getting a 10% cut of everything they make, right? Of course. So you're betting on, you want to bet on like the safest... [1:36:33] competitive talents. [1:36:35] And it's not really much different than putting together a team. So if I was an owner, I would be like, who are the other agents we can get? [1:36:43] Who else sees the world like this? [1:36:46] And could potentially put together a group of people like this. Well, they really had skin in the game. And one other thing about Wes. [1:36:55] Because you said the thing about, look, Leon's not going to talk to the press. Don't worry about it. But one of the other things. But one of the things West does do. [1:37:02] As he walks around the garden, [1:37:04] Wes is a visible presence, and not in a, not in the, I'm shadowing, I'm lingering over the bench to put pressure. No, the other thing where he walks around like, yeah, [1:37:16] we have it all on the line. He shows himself. So many people hide [1:37:21] in the front office and in the back. And the second halftime comes, they duck into the... [1:37:26] Wes is like out there and not just down in the front row. Like he walks around the ring in between and talks to people and people shouted him and he engages with people. And I do think, and that may be from being an agent too, right? Being in with people, being comfortable with people, knowing how to make deals. But it does instill a sense of, [1:37:46] oh, these guys have something on the line here, like, [1:37:49] They're saying something about what they're doing. So they put the pieces together. But they also have advantages of

[1:37:57] They've known Brunson forever. [1:37:59] Because of the relationship with the dad. [1:38:01] They've known talent since he was 15 years old. [1:38:03] Ananobi was the CAA guy like [1:38:06] they have real opinions on these guys because they have a whole background. Whereas if you're just a typical GM and you're looking at it more like the way you and I would look at it, like Zach Levine, what's he about? And we're just on his basketball reference. But all these things broke the right way. Okay, Ananobi, as you know, his injury. But Ananobi, from the moment he came here, he was so great anytime he was playing in the Garden. I don't know how much you felt in the Garden. The Garden loves him. We love that guy as fans. [1:38:36] in the garden. But other things like bridges showing up with that [1:38:40] completely changed jumper last year and everyone being kind of freaked out. But almost like when Tiger changed his swing, it's like, don't worry at the right time, it's going to peak. And then like, because it was the jumper was ugly and he missed so much. [1:38:55] But he knew what he was doing because... [1:38:58] Like, think about how it's paying off now. So it's almost like everything that's happened, these guys really just all know what they're doing. And it's very humbling. It's the thing you wish some of the commentators would understand, like, [1:39:11] Sometimes these experts, sometimes they do know something like the people in the game. And, you know, I don't want to call out a certain self-identified big New York Knicks fan who's on ESPN always saying a lot of bullshit about the Knicks. But it seems like these people do know what they're doing. And Jalen Brunson is the real thing. And we're in the championship.

[1:39:33] This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [1:39:47] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [1:39:51] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [1:39:54] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. [1:40:02] So good, so good, so good. New markdowns up to 70% off are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Stock up and stay big on shoes, tops, dresses, accessories, and more must-haves for summer. Join the Nordi Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. [1:40:30] Can't believe it. [1:40:32] I'm happy for you and Sammy and the whole Koppelman family. [1:40:35] I'm also excited that I'm one of the 15 pods you've been on this month. [1:40:39] Thanks for fitting me in the rotation. I hadn't done a pod in like two years. And then Cody Rhodes asked me to do a podcast. Yeah. And as you know, his dad, second favorite wrestler of all time. And I love Cody. Got to do that. [1:40:53] Got to do the pot. And then once I did it, another friend asked. But listen to me. Bill Simmons, it's always... [1:40:59] Who put me in the podcast game to start? Wait, I have one last thing before. Much to this. No, I don't want to. I'm not saying goodbye yet.

[1:41:05] You have a new Vegas show. [1:41:08] There was all this stuff written about it last week. We start shooting in seven weeks. You and Levine are back in Vegas. [1:41:15] We are back in Vegas. Everyone in America wants to know what part I'm playing. It's been everywhere I go. People are asking me. [1:41:22] I heard about the boys have a new show in Vegas. Are you just going to have a cameo? Is it going to be like, [1:41:27] You're playing a blackjack dealer? Are you going to play yourself? Like what? So I don't know. I'm in your hands. I mean, let's figure it out. What do you think? Do you want to... [1:41:36] You want to put on a pork pie hat and be your, uh, uh, gambler down on his luck. You want to be a dealer who's, uh, [1:41:43] taking satisfaction in someone. Can I be like a struggling actor who used to be famous, but got a gambling problem. And now I'm just kind of, I don't know. I'm, I'm open for anything. [1:41:54] Yeah, you know what we'll do? We'll put that version on the Oak Show. [1:41:56] And then... [1:41:59] right we'll put it on the ocho and then yeah you can totally you can totally do that rounders tilt [1:42:06] The ill-fated tilt. [1:42:07] Ocean's 13. This is the fourth one now. [1:42:11] In the whole gambling universe. Although there was some dabbling in Billions. [1:42:15] Yeah, there was some poker in Billions. But the cast in this thing, we haven't announced all the cast, but... [1:42:21] Oscar Isaac. [1:42:23] Alec Baldwin, David Costable, Betty Gilpin, and there's a couple of your old guy. [1:42:28] Yeah. Got to have got it. We're never going to battle without Kosti, but, um, [1:42:33] The cast incredible Oscar is going to crush it in this in this part. And Damon cameo. Can you get him?

[1:42:40] I mean, listen. Just a slip-by? [1:42:43] I feel like this kills rounders too, but I'm fine with it. Everybody says it's never happening. You know what? I'll call you. You conference in, Matt, and we'll take it from there. [1:42:51] I'm happy for everything that's going on with you. [1:42:54] So I had all your Nick fan friends. I know this has been a long journey. I'm just happy you're happy. In honor of William, like you said, I wasn't going to do it because I didn't want to jinx anything. I didn't want it. [1:43:05] Here's the thing. You were right. You said two things. You said one, I should celebrate being in the championship series and and having a level next team. [1:43:13] but also in honor of William Goldman, who you loved and I loved too. And when you said that she... [1:43:19] Had 99, and that's the last time he saw him in the championship series. [1:43:23] And so I just shout out, maybe the greatest screenwriter who ever lived, the great William Goldman and a wonderful man and one of the great Nick fans of all time. He's watching over us. Right up there with Spike Lee. He's watching over this. Thanks, Koppelman. Thanks, man. Talk to you soon. Bye. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Tim Legler. Thanks to my friend, Brian Koppelman. Congrats to all the Knicks fans out there. Here's the schedule for me. [1:43:49] I'm coming back live. [1:43:51] On Thursday night after game six, you can watch it on Netflix or you can listen to it [1:43:55] slash watch it whenever you want on Spotify. And if there's a Game 7, we will be going live. [1:44:02] on Saturday night for Game 7. [1:44:05] OKC San Antonio. So that is the schedule. Don't forget, new rewatchables went up, Animal House. And we have 2001, A Space Odyssey coming.

[1:44:14] uh next week either Sunday or Monday depending on what happens with game seven I will see you later in the week [1:44:22] Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted government id] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call [redacted phone] for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE. [1:44:52] NY or text HOPENY in New York for Louisiana. Call [redacted phone]. For moi. Claude, you can talk? I've always had the gift of gab, Nancy. But now you can understand. With Pretty Litter, the odor-neutralizing, long-lasting health-indicating kitty litter, that's simply the most luxurious way to bury my poopies and my peepees. Pretty Litter was developed with veterinarians. [1:45:22] Go to PrettyLitter.com today. Pretty Litter. Not just a pretty litter. [1:45:27] Bye.