The Knicks Land a Haymaker, With Doc Rivers. Plus, a Mini-Mailbag, the End of 'Euphoria,' and a Movies Resurgence With Joanna Robinson and Chris Ryan.

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[01:49] Music. [02:16] All right, the Bill Simmons Podcast. We are live on Netflix. Special guest, my friend Doc Rivers is here after just an incredible... [02:25] Wow. [02:26] dramatic. [02:27] Wasn't the best played game, the stats weren't awesome? [02:30] But a lot of twists and turns. The Knicks pull it out. And I think we thought the same thing with about three, four minutes left. One team looked like... [02:38] They kind of knew what they were doing. And the other team looked like, [02:42] the playoff experience youth stuff was starting to creep in. I didn't like the shots I got. I didn't, I just didn't like anything. And the Knicks just went into Knicks mode. Yeah. I don't know though, Bill, there was youth, uh, [02:53] As far as at the end of the game, I would say this at the end of the game, if you told anyone, at least me, [03:00] before the game is going to come down to a single possession game, you're going to favor the Knicks because the Knicks know exactly what they're doing. They're giving the ball to Brunson and they're going to play off Brunson and [03:12] San Antonio in any game down the stretch. You're not sure yet because that's where they are young. They haven't, the two-man game with Fox and Wimby,

[03:22] is usually the play. They actually ran it. [03:25] Fox got a wide open shot that would have tied the game, if you remember. And he missed that shot. And then he followed up with a foul. [03:35] on, I think, Bridges, where Bridges had nothing. So those back-to-back plays, there were three plays that changed the game to me. The offensive rebound, [03:44] that Bronson got and then got to three. The missed shot by Fox, where he would have tied the game up. Then Fox followed that up where he bailed Bridges out with a plow. That's a seven-point swing. [03:57] in a game. [03:58] And San Antonio couldn't recover. Then the turnover. [04:02] by Wemby was the final nail. [04:04] And then Brunson with the moon ball. Yeah. So it, [04:07] Santona takes the lead 95-94 in the two Wemby free throws, and then that whole sequence happens. Yeah. Fox... [04:13] Fox made that shot in Game 7 against OKC. In this game, I think him and Wemby combined were 7 for 27. [04:22] Well, Fox is one of the most clutch players in the NBA over the last three years down the stretch of the game. He really hasn't been other than Game 7 Oklahoma. [04:33] That's their go-to play. And, you know, we know what the Knicks are going to do. And we pretty much know what San Antonio is going to do. They're going to go to the two-man game. Remember, they lost that game to Oklahoma where Fox wasn't there. They didn't have anything down the stretch to go to. Well, they went to it. Fox got his shot, like, in the paint.

[04:52] Perfect look for him, misses it. And then the Knicks are going to play Brunson ball from there on. So I just think it came down to little things. A couple things I was surprised by. And I was wrong. I was really surprised. [05:07] by Wimby guarding Towns to start the game. I was shocked by that. I was positive that Wimby would be on heart. [05:17] Champagne or anyone else would be on Towns. And the reason is that allows Wimpy to stay in the paint more. If you look at the beginning of the third quarter, the Spurs did that. [05:28] And I actually turned to my son Spencer and I said, huh, maybe the Spurs are playing cat and mouse. Maybe that's what they wanted to do all along. But instead, they waited until the second half. [05:39] And it had some impact. They got out to a quick lead the beginning of the third. They really never went back to that coverage, you know. And Hart didn't play his normal big minutes. I think he played 26, 27 minutes. So Mike Brown... [05:53] I got to tell you, Coach did his butt off tonight. He really did. [05:57] VAC. [05:58] I never also thought that Wemmey would be guarded by Carl Anthony Towns. Successfully. Yeah, you thought it would be a foul machine. [06:07] Well, I thought it'd be Fowles, and I thought it'd be Ananobi. Ananobi, I think, this year has the best plus minus in the NBA versus Wembe defensively. So I thought they would go to that, and they never even went to it. So when you look at the Knicks, they still have that in their bag.

[06:24] to go to. I thought Caronthony Towns, [06:28] played the game of his life. He was amazing. You know, my son especially turned to me and said, "Wow, [06:34] Minnesota traded Carl Anthony Towns. [06:39] And, you know, last year, no one was actually saying that, you know, because Carl was up and down. But I tell you, man, [06:47] uh second half of this season he's been absolutely unbelievable and again he's [06:53] Mike Brown has put him in a right spot to be successful. And you got to give Mike a lot of credit. [06:57] Yeah, I had three heroes. Brunson, obviously, I think he had 19 in the second half. [07:02] Hart had 15 rebounds and six assists in 26 minutes. [07:06] And then I thought Townes took it to Wemby. I thought it was a stalemate at worst between them. [07:11] Not just statistically, but didn't seem afraid of him. [07:15] Went by him a bunch of times. That was the big thing. I had the numbers wrong on Wemby and Fox. They were [07:20] Nine for 34. [07:22] combined. And San Antonio, they only had two threes [07:25] in the second half. They didn't shoot well. We'll go into some of the stuff they can do. - Yeah. - We can't lose sight of the biggest moment of this game that happened in the second quarter. [07:35] when somebody, I forget who it was, crashed into Brunson's knee. Yeah, it looked bad. I didn't think it was bad, honestly. When I saw it, I thought it hurt. And you know what I mean by that? I thought that was a scare. [07:49] because his knee didn't go all the way in. So honestly, I was sitting there. I said, he's okay. It just scared the hell out of him. Then he didn't seem okay. Every Knicks fan in my life is like, are you serious? We just won 11 in a row.

[08:04] We're in the finals. This is our guy. He's going to get hurt in the first half of the game. He goes into the tunnel. [08:09] And it's just pure panic. [08:11] And then in an hour and a half, it flips and he's the hero of the game. His ankle gets stepped on. I mean, this dude, he is just so tough. The move he made late where he took the hit, got bumped. Give San Antonio credit. They did it all. The entire Oklahoma series where they stay down, they take the bump. And then you have to try to play through that. And Brunson makes that shot. [08:32] It just was a perfect moment for Brunson. [08:35] Well, explain this to me with Brunson. [08:37] SGA looks so uncomfortable against the Spurs team and all the guards. [08:42] And Brunson looked like within a half he had solved it in the second half. And he was getting – I actually thought he could add more points. He missed a couple shots that he usually made. Is it because the Knicks had better three-point shooting or better space? Like what is it? What was the difference with them and OKC? Well, you just hit on one thing. They have way better spacing. All right? And they do a great job with their cuts and their spacing. That's number one. Number two, there was one time where he got in the paint, and you could see Wimby wanted to help. [09:12] corner to the three. Well, in the Oklahoma series, Wimby got to stay in the paint. [09:18] He really never left the paint. It's almost like they decided, [09:23] If Caruso and those guys can make enough threes, we'll lose the game. [09:27] We don't think they can. And they were right at the end of the day. Barely, because Caruso and Wallace made like half the corner threes. Ultimately, it didn't matter because Chet didn't make anything. Yeah, and Caruso was amazing in that series. So, you know, New York, first of all, the one thing you got to give heart, he knows that.

[09:46] Before the game, [09:48] that that's who they are going to put him on or they're going to try to help off of him he is a great cutter he's always in a dunker spot and that's why you remind me of rondo and rebounding you know yeah yeah well we put rondo in the dunker spot a ton why because when he didn't have the ball [10:06] If you didn't guard him, he rebounded the ball. And it allowed Rondell to have a free run. [10:12] at the glass. If you watch Hart, there's no one blocking him out. He's just going to rebound. [10:18] He has a free lane right to go rebound because no one's guarding him. And he takes advantage of it. He's one of the great rebounders in our league at his size. [10:26] Well, and then on the flip side, [10:28] Vassell, Champagny, Harper, [10:31] and Castle, I think they had like 30 rebounds combined with six minutes left in the game. They were crashing the board. San Antonio had 14 offensive rebounds. [10:39] And really it came down, they just couldn't make shots. [10:42] And if I'm, I actually, they had two timeouts with like three minutes left. Yeah. And we both had the same thought of like, they don't look right. [10:49] Feels like this is [10:50] maybe like reset this. Wemby looked tired. I don't know if he shot his wide in the first half or what happened, but [10:57] I don't know what the answer is. [11:00] That's actually the first half. Wendy looks mad up tonight. [11:03] It looks like they're speeding him up tonight. I think he had six or seven turnovers, Bill. A lot of them were putting the ball on the floor. I would know, you know, we have all kinds of stats, analytical stats with a team. And one of the things I would look at first is how many dribbles did he have? I know that sounds crazy, but it felt like he dribbled the ball way more than usual.

[11:33] I think that played right into the Knicks hands. I think they would take that. Harper was phenomenal to me. He played great, played normal, was funny. [11:41] He just goes out and plays. And nothing kind of affects him. The two other guards, the three guards from San Antonio didn't have their best game. That's going to happen. That could be first game jitters. That could be all kinds of things. They'll play better. But... [11:57] the Knicks will play better too. I thought Ananobi, down the stretch, he started playing well, but I thought he was struggling most of the game. He knows save the bench, the game for the Knicks on the bench. [12:08] That little sucker, Alvarado. In the first half, yeah. He had really big minutes for them. He played great. And Shem... [12:16] You know, I'm just, I mean, I coached Shem, and I'm just so proud of him. And by the way he plays and how, like, you couldn't keep Shem on the floor. [12:26] Five years ago. [12:27] Three years ago. [12:28] defensively he couldn't guard anybody and that kid has worked his tail off and he he competes defensively and the other thing now is he's always been a great shooter but if he missed a couple he would never keep shooting and now he does that's maturity that's growing up that's going through all the stuff and he's doing that i thought their bitch gave them a huge lift tonight he was he was out there with like four minutes left [12:54] In the Bridges spot. And then they brought Bridges back in. But I was surprised how late he was in the game. Yeah, so Bridges will play better. He didn't have a great game offensively, but I thought Bridges had a phenomenal game defensively. You know, it's so funny that Bridges gets so much criticism, but he does so many things. And, you know, everyone just equates scoring to if you play well. And we all know there's so many other things you can do. And Bridges does those things every night.

[13:20] Yeah. [13:21] Um, [13:22] If I'm Wemby, what am I learning from that game? [13:25] Our patients... [13:27] You know, to me, Temple... [13:29] I thought he went too quick at times. I think they're going to put him on a post a little bit more, but not much more. The two-man game with him and Fox, [13:39] There's something there. They just didn't get anything out of it. The 45 set, which I think we started it when I was with the Clippers, with Chris Paul, if you remember. That's where the 45 set actually came from. [13:53] They are the best that I've ever seen in it. [13:57] Explain what the 45 set is. The 45 set is the four and the five. And usually they use a guard way up top, that double flat screen. [14:05] where a guard goes downhill, Wimby Rose, shooter in the backside, shooter in the corner. They run it as well as anybody I've ever seen. And they ran it three or four times early in the game, and it was successful, and they got away from it. So you're going to see that way more in game two on Friday. [14:24] I wonder what they do about Harper. Cause I thought, I actually thought he was their best player in that game. They took him out with a little over four minutes left when it was close. [14:33] And then they lost the lead. And I didn't really like, you know, any of the offense they had except for that Fox nine-footer that he missed. But I wonder if Harper... [14:42] I wonder if he has reached a point where you can't take him off. [14:45] He just has to finish the games for you because he can create his own shot. [14:49] He can, but the other guards can as well. I have to say that. I think there's going to be gain for us going to come down between him and Champinny.

[14:58] You know, the other guards, because of their defense, their rebounding, their athleticism, you keep them on the floor. But that makes them really small. That's one of the things I kept saying, Bill, I told you this, the Knicks are big. [15:10] They're big. They're big at every spot. I guess Brunson is considered small, but we call him big body Brunson. Hart plays like a five. Ananomi is huge. [15:22] Bridges is long. [15:24] uh towns is long they're a big basketball team and so even though the spurs guards did way better than i thought they would on the offensive glass i think size matters uh it does when victor's around but it also does because of all the nick players with size and i thought it mattered tonight [15:41] I wonder, what do you think the Knicks strategy was going into that game? Because it felt like they want to turn into a track meet early. [15:48] and kind of discombobulate the Spurs and knock them out or whatever, whether they were in the last game. [15:53] And then I thought down the stretch, you could see it wore down the spurs and it felt like the Knicks were like... [15:58] gaining strength almost. And do you think that's the strategy or it was just the outcome? Yeah, I do. I think it's funny. I heard people say at halftime, slow it down. I said, don't slow this game down. This is great for the Knicks. The one thing they were doing, they were trying to get up the floor before women could get there. [16:12] They were trying that same thing Oklahoma tried, except for Oklahoma kept losing their ball handlers. All they had was Shea left. [16:21] But the Knicks, they pass the ball forward. They attack early. They spread the floor. And it also didn't allow Wimby to get into his spot. Wimby loves being in the dunker spot defensively. But when they go in transition early and early attack, you saw Wimby out by the three-point line a lot tonight. San Antonio cannot like that.

[16:42] absolutely was part of their game plan. I had a bunch of Knicks fans in my life who were texting me during the game being like, I liked LB until tonight. Now I hate his guts. I'm tired of this. He's flopping around like he gets every call. It's so funny how you root against the guy for an hour and you're like, I'm out. I hate this guy. Yeah, well, everyone flops around now. It's just so funny. I think it was Castle. They asked him and they were trying to get him to say something about Shea. [17:12] says, everyone flops. It's funny. It's not taught. Players work on it. [17:18] But it's not taught, really. Players just work on it. Hell, I thought Bronson flopped and Carl Anthony Towns flopped every bit as much as Wimby did. But that's just part of the game. [17:31] I like it. We're getting a lot of animosity. Um, I love that. Yeah. With, [17:36] With the Towns thing, you said that at the top about how Minnesota traded him. [17:41] With that said, I never ever in a million years thought that he had this in him. [17:45] And he's been doing it now for a month, right? The way he played today, there's almost like a cerebralness about – [17:52] What he's doing offensively, he's kind of staying away from the dumb fouls for the most part. Like some of the stuff, like the quick attacks on Wemby, [18:00] It's exactly what he had to do. Like before Wembe got set, he was just trying to beat him, and he was physical with him. He's playing smart. I just loved how he played. He's playing smart. He's not losing his composure. Those are things that he always would do in the past. He's staying out of foul trouble. He may be their best passer at times. And the biggest thing he's doing that no one talks about is his rebounding. He is a great rebounder, a great rebounder, great offensive rebounder.

[18:30] didn't know [18:31] he can ever do. And the other thing is, and I've said this since we won in 2008, Bill, [18:40] When you hear about teams and they all say it, [18:42] Uh, [18:43] You improve each round. [18:45] And teams that don't go deep never understand that. Players who have never gone deep, they never understand. It's not necessarily individual improvement. [18:53] It's team improvement. [18:55] And the Knicks in the first round, [18:58] May have been, you could say, maybe gettable. [19:01] you know, [19:02] In the second round, [19:04] you know, they got it going at that. [19:06] After that Atlanta meeting or whatever they had, [19:09] They have come together. Like when you watch them play, there was a time out in this game where you heard Carr-Anthony Towns talking. I saw that. That was unbelievable. That was six weeks ago. [19:21] He wouldn't have said it and no one would have listened. [19:24] You know, [19:25] But that's part of the growth that teams go through. Each round, you get better. You get closer. You trust more. You let go of all the individual crap, you know, all the numbers chasing. And you just start playing, you know, and you play the right way. Elvarado, think about it. I always love Elvarado in this example. He comes from New Orleans where he played a ton of minutes. And now he played two minutes, five minutes, six minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes. He doesn't care. [19:54] He just wants to help the team win. And you can see that throughout the Knick team. You can see that throughout the Spurs team. These are two teams that have grown each round. And they both have come to this team unity thing.

[20:09] And it's really helped the Knicks because we never thought the Knicks could get there. [20:13] They're there. They are absolutely there. [20:16] I forgot to say that this segment is brought to you by New Era, which makes a bunch of great caps, all kinds of things. So that what you just mentioned about. [20:24] The selflessness. I remember we did a podcast... [20:27] During the 24 finals, we were talking about the Celtics. [20:31] When they were, I think they won game three against Dallas. [20:35] And you were excited about it because you were like, I see it. They get it. [20:39] They understand what this last level is about. It's not about the stats anymore. It's about [20:44] looking out for each other, just trying to win whatever it takes. You don't care about your minutes. You don't look at the stat sheet. [20:51] It feels like the Knicks have gotten there. [20:53] I thought San Antonio was going to win this series, and maybe they just suck tonight. Maybe they will. [20:59] But the fact that the Knicks were able to carry that three rounds inferior competition to now this stage tonight, and it's the same thing, it gives you hope if you're a Knicks fan, I would say. Well, I've been asked... [21:12] Because I'm always asked. [21:14] who's going to win the series. [21:16] And today I was golfing. I bet I was asked it 50 times, Bill. And my same answer is, I don't know. [21:22] This one... [21:24] usually you kind of have a, [21:25] This one is too close to call. [21:29] And... [21:30] You know, if you're a Knicks fan, you feel great, obviously. The big thing is if they do lose another game, but they come back with the next game. [21:38] you know, and

[21:40] Now game two is the biggest game in the finals for San Antonio. They can't go down 0-2. [21:46] They just can't. I guess they can. We've seen teams come back. But, you know, it's just so interesting. Yeah, this they're not going to play. It's the guard play. [21:57] That's the key for San Antonio. They did not have great guard play, and their guards have been dominant in the playoffs. They've been dominant. They usually have good guard play by one or two. [22:09] And then maybe two don't, all their guards didn't play well other than Harper. Harper was the only guard. [22:14] They played great in that. [22:16] I thought one of the things they weren't really 100% doing tonight was just attacking the rim all the time, which is what they learned to do against OKC. [22:25] Just got to go. Don't even think twice. Just go, go, go, go attack. Bigger guys. I bet if you sit back and count the drives that they were bumped off on, [22:36] It was amazing. Even Brunson had one. I think Fox had him beat, but he bumped him off path. And nobody does it as good as anyone. Bridges doesn't. Hart is great. [22:48] phenomenal at it. Yeah. So they took [22:51] a lot of the hits from San Antonio and kind of veered them outside to the paint. I thought that was really affected by New York. I thought New York's penetration defense was phenomenal. I thought they guarded the ball and took hits, held their ground, didn't back up, didn't flop. [23:08] They held their ground tonight and their size matter again.

[23:13] When you played them this season, did you see this in them? [23:16] No. [23:17] No. I did say earlier they're the best team in the East when you go individual. Right. Most talented team. Yeah. If you just counted the numbers, you thought best team in the East. And going into the playoffs, I did pick them. [23:32] to win the East before the playoffs started. But I just thought they would out-talent people. They're out-teaming people now. [23:40] And when you put that talent together and now the way they're playing, [23:44] They're a really good basketball team and they're hard to beat. [23:47] Yeah, because I remember when this happened with the 08 Celtics. Now, granted, they won way more regular season games. But then the first two rounds were choppy. [23:55] two seven game series and then it really wasn't until near the end of the detroit series [24:00] And then you could see something shifted. [24:02] Do you remember that? What game was that when it just like [24:05] Just something was different. I thought it was a game... [24:08] In Detroit, after we lost, you remember we lost, our first home game was against the Pistons. Yeah. And I think it was game two. And we went right back in Detroit and won. [24:18] I thought from that point on, we were, we had, you know, been made, you know, I love using that term, like, and, you know, Godfather, we were made finally, like this team is strong. [24:29] I thought that team played together all the time. But you remember going into playoffs and made that comment. I'm really worried we have not been tested. We hadn't lost two games in a row all year. We hadn't gone through anything and it just felt too easy. [24:42] And that really concerned me. And so those two game seven, Atlanta game seven wasn't much of a game, but that Cleveland game seven,

[24:49] Yeah, that kind of made us and didn't turn around and then Detroit defending champs come in and they pop us right away and we have to respond. [24:58] I thought those are the things. And the Knicks have been going through stuff all year. So they're different. They've gone through all stuff all year. Turmoil, chemistry problems, role problems. Guys were unhappy. They get to the first round. A lot of that is still going on. Atlanta takes it to them. They have that meeting and it all goes away. Since then, [25:21] They've been playing right throughout. [25:22] And it's been amazing to watch. So is that the first recorded meeting in NBA history that actually worked? It actually worked. Yeah. Because I don't think it was a call of meeting. Like, you know, it just, from what I hear, the meeting just kind of happened. [25:39] It wasn't one of those things like we're going to have a player meeting, which every coach is like, oh, God. Or we have a coach, we want to have a team meeting where every coach says, [25:49] Oh, God. Yeah. I got to tell you, Bill, I've been a player in these meetings. [25:54] And I've been a coach in these meetings and a lot of them go haywire. I was in San Antonio as a player. [26:02] And some of the, we were down 0-2 to the Houston Rockets. [26:07] right way back in the Western finals. [26:11] And I think it was David Robinson or someone or Moses Malone. I'm going to use him because there's all kinds of stuff in this meeting. The first part of the meeting, Greg Popovich is talking. Now, Bob Hill is our coach.

[26:23] And Dennis Rodman, when Pop finishes, he's like, [26:27] Dennis Rodman says, fuck. [26:28] Who's listening to you? [26:30] You're not the coach. This is the meeting. [26:34] Pop goes back at Dennis [26:36] Then Moses starts talking and Avery Johnson, Moses, I love you, but your time has passed. And we're not we're not going to read your press clippings anymore. Then Avery goes after David Robinson. I mean, the meeting was a disaster. [26:52] It was a disaster. Having said that, we didn't go to Houston and win game three and four. So you just never know. So when you have those meetings... [27:01] Most of the time it's guys screaming at each other. Very rarely does it turn into a very productive group therapy session, like in an Apple TV show or something. Well, sometimes you have phenomenal meetings. I will say there's been some good ones. [27:15] But there's usually at some point, [27:17] A player who, [27:19] You didn't expect to say something. [27:21] says something that pisses off the entire locker room or another player. Now, those two guys got a beef. [27:29] And it's all falling apart. That's usually what happens. It happens a lot. Yeah. [27:33] So when they were trying to put together, I talked about this a few pods ago, like Wes and Leon trying to put this team together. And the motto is the 04 Pistons. [27:42] where it's like, we're not going to luck into a top three lottery pick. [27:46] But we can kind of smartly, we can build around Brunson, [27:49] Um, [27:50] he could be like our billups basically. And we could just kind of patch together different guys and,

[27:55] We'll have wings that can play defense and Towns will be our big guy. [27:59] Do you see that when you watch them? Do you see the comparison? I mean, they're completely different teams. They're two different teams because that Pistons team, anyone could have a big night. [28:09] If you remember that where, [28:11] For the most part, Brunson is their go-to guy. [28:14] 31 shots tonight. Yeah, he's the guy. And Detroit played more team ball, more movement. So a different team. Detroit was probably was a way better defensive team. Yeah. I think New York's a better offensive team in some ways. But listen. [28:32] When you look at the two teams, two teams couldn't be built any differently. [28:36] The Spurs have done it basically through the draft. [28:38] Fox is the only guy that you can make a case that they traded for. They signed some low-budget free agencies that have turned out great for them. But other than that, it's been Fox, right? Where the Knicks... [28:53] I asked my son, Spencer, who on the Knicks team was drafted by the Knicks? They placed. [29:00] There's only one. [29:02] It's... [29:04] Mitchell Robinson, right? That's it. Everybody else they traded for, they signed in free agency. So you got to give Leon and those guys a lot of credit. They got the right pieces. They did. I thought the Villanova thing was smart. [29:19] as much as people want to knock it because it did create a team. It did create unity and that was good.

[29:27] No one and I don't care [29:29] If Leon or anyone, no one thought Brunson would be this good. And I really liked him, you know, because people forget what he did to Phoenix. Oh, yeah. In that series. Like, it wasn't just the Luka show. It was a Luka Brunson show. And he did it to Utah, too, for a couple games. He did at moments. Well, the Utah series, remember, I think Luka misses the game. He does. And he just takes over. So he showed that he could do it. [29:56] No one thought he could do it full time every night and be this clutch. So give New York credit. They signed him. What I think they did better is once they realized what they had, [30:07] They built around it. And I don't want to take shots at anybody, but I will say this. They are [30:14] A lot of front office guys that can go out and get the stars. [30:19] There's very few of them that can then build a team into a championship team. That's what you have to do. You can go out and get these names. [30:28] But can you make [30:30] the other moves. You know, you look at Danny Ainge, he's done it a ton. Brad Stevens has done it. [30:38] Sam Preston. [30:40] You know, it took him a while. You think about all the talent that Sam Pressy had, and he finally kind of figured it out. Like, all right, we got the stars. [30:48] All right. Now I got to go get Hartenstein. I got to go get Caruso. I got to go get some of these role players because that's what's going to win the game for us. San Antonio.

[30:58] We don't even know who their role players are yet because they're so young. All their guards are so good. We don't even know who could be the next star. Could be Harper, could be Castle. I mean, there's so many guys. But the next, give them credit, Hart is a role player. That's who he is. He actually knows who he is. Bridges is a role player. That's who he is. He actually knows he is. Robinson's a role player. And then the Carl Anthony Towns trade was humongous. [31:25] And at the time, [31:27] I don't think anyone knew if it was a good trade or not, but it's turned out. [31:31] to be the game changer for them. [31:33] Yeah, that was one of those, it was really hard to have a hard opinion on that trade. Yeah. You could see it from both sides being a disaster. I remember being like, I understand why they did it. I don't know if I like it. [31:47] I understand the logic. The logic was perfect. One of them was because the way he shoots, to take a big outside of the paint and let Bronson work, [31:57] and then give breath some more space. [31:59] So that absolutely is happening. It happened tonight. [32:03] And they needed a center because the league barely has any centers. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you talk about the team building part. [32:09] and you just came from Milwaukee, they went the opposite way where, [32:13] They had Giannis and they were like, we... [32:15] we got to get another star for Giannis. And they traded basically all their future stuff for Dame and tried to put them together as, as the combo. [32:23] which I think is the old school model. Do you think like with the way that this new CBA works,

[32:29] And the second apron penalties. It feels like... [32:33] It feels like the depth and having a bunch of guys in that like seven to $15 million range is going to be more important than that second star. Yeah, I think it depends on who the first star is. [32:44] If you have a Shea, if you have a Bronson, you can get away with having a lot of other players. And Williams is better than just a lot of other players who's injured. Yeah, maybe the two guys and then you have a bunch of smaller. Two and a half. What happened to Milwaukee is they got old quick and their star wasn't. He was the young one. Everyone else got old really quickly. I think if they could redo that trade, they still do it, but they would probably keep Drew. [33:14] heard they didn't think Drew and Dane could play together and what they realized later is no, Dane needed Drew to protect him defensively from everybody else so the thought I actually thought was right, the execution of the rest of the part probably didn't work out. Now, [33:30] Moving forward, all these teams have to be very careful. Like if you're number one guy is your number one guy. [33:37] But you're number two, three, four, five. You better with the cap and the apron. It's so much harder, Bill. The three the three star thing is gone. Like we know that just contractually you can't do it. The two star thing is still alive. [33:53] Uh, but, [33:55] You can make a case having a superstar, you know, a... [33:59] Shay.

[34:00] and four really good players. [34:03] may be better. [34:05] Yeah, because the Celts are in that situation now with Tatum and Brown. I think Tatum has the [34:10] I think he has the third biggest contract per year next year, and Brown has seventh, so two is top seven. [34:17] I don't know how sustainable that is for the rest of the decade. How do you put a team around that, especially when you're watching – [34:23] A series like this where both teams go nine deep. [34:26] Cornette, who we didn't talk about, [34:29] He came in at one point. I think Cornette's a good backup center, but now it's kind of the point. As soon as Wemby comes out of the game, [34:36] All the players in the other team are like, just you could see the hop in their step that he's gone for four minutes. [34:42] Yeah, but there's no point in the history. [34:44] Maybe back in the day. [34:47] And I'm being honest. And Shaq a little bit, but [34:51] Uh, [34:52] I mean, listen, when Winnie walks off the floor, I don't care who you are. I think there's high school kids running right when Winnie walks off the floor and they're yelling, drive the ball now. Right. Do it. Because it was it was so obvious. I think they get the nine point lead. [35:08] They sub him out. And it was like the Knicks just attacked the basket immediately. And so, you know. It was 63-50. [35:18] He goes out. [35:20] And by the time he comes back in, it's 67-61, the Knicks are back in the game. They're back in the game. And... [35:26] Brunson got it going. Brunson got it. You had two things going at the same time. You know what else was going, by the way? I had multiple Knicks fans friends there.

[35:37] They said it was like 15% Knicks fans. [35:40] It was more than I thought it could be. I was surprised. That's for game one. San Antonio, people don't sell tickets. Well, clearly they do. But the Knicks fans have been impressive. They really have been. You gotta, like, [35:54] Joel Embiid makes that ridiculous speech, you know, after they beat the Celtics about, you know, I'll pay for the tickets. And the Knicks, it was almost like the Knicks fans took that personal. What? We're going to buy the whole arena out. I mean, what happened with the Knicks fans in Philadelphia was unbelievable. [36:13] Yeah, that was crazy. You played for them a long time ago. [36:19] Got injured. But you were... [36:23] involved with that team that came the closest they've ever been. And that was 32 years ago. [36:28] Yeah. [36:29] But, [36:30] I should have been active. [36:32] Well, yeah, you told that story on another pod that we did about how they should have activated you for the last two rounds. Yeah. Now this is... [36:40] 53 years. I've been saying, I think this is the biggest thing. [36:45] title that anybody can have right now, unless maybe the Bills, but the problem is the Knicks have [36:51] Six generations of fans and they're the biggest city. It's not even close. I know that sounds funny because we're comparing football and basketball. It's like the Cubs winning. [37:02] It really is in a lot of ways. If the Knicks can win this, they've been through, first of all, they went through a lot of bad basketball. It's not like they've been knocking on the door. 20 years of it, yeah. I mean, they went through a lot of bad basketball. And then they kind of built this team, Leon. You got to just give them all the credit in the world. Him and Wes, they put this team together piece by piece.

[37:27] And now they're in it and they're going to be in it for a long time. This is not a fluke. This team's going to be good. They're going to be good for a long time. Contractually, they're set up really well overall. [37:36] Um, so yeah, um, [37:39] I can't think of another team with size of City and haven't won it. [37:46] that this would be any bigger. This is as big as it is. This century, Red Sox and Cubs were the two big ones. Right. That's exactly right. The Red Sox and the Cubs were the two that they had to remove. [37:59] and then they got him. So now it's the Knicks. [38:03] Well, we talked about the chess match of the series. So... [38:07] The Knicks come out and do two things maybe San Antonio wasn't expecting. Having Towns guard... [38:12] Wemby and just playing super fast and seeing if they could discombobulate them. [38:16] I think they knew that. I think San Antonio. You think they're ready for that? Yeah. [38:21] Alright, so now we go to game two in San Antonio. It's like, [38:25] Okay, they're going to have Wemby. Do you zag now if you're the Knicks? I'm like, no, actually, I'm not going to have Towns on Wemby this game. [38:33] I'm going to put OG on them right away. I'm going to do this. No, no. Sometimes you overthink things. Yeah. That's in their back pocket. [38:41] They still have that. [38:42] Um, I, I, if Towns had gotten a quick file, I guarantee you they would have switched and then they'll be on them right away. [38:49] They didn't have to do it. [38:50] All right. That was one. Two, I would be very surprised to see Wendy guarding Carl Anthony Towns. I just think it puts Wendy out of help.

[39:03] And without the help, [39:05] I think it really hurts San Antonio. It also takes me away from the glass. [39:12] And so even though our heart will have free run to the glass, you still got a 7-6 alien standing there just swiping every rebound. [39:22] So I think those are the two biggest changes that you'll see. [39:26] I had two mailbag questions for you quickly. [39:29] First one is from Jeremy in Portland. Is the NBA experiencing the greatest parody era ever? [39:35] in the history of the league. This year will be eight champions in eight years. [39:39] Half the league will have made the finals in the last 10 years. [39:42] Do you think this is... [39:44] A fluke, COVID's part of that, or do you think this is just what the league is now? [39:48] I think this is what the league, I think this is what collective bargaining and what they wanted. You know, it doesn't allow the big markets to just outspend like the Dodgers, you know. Yeah. It doesn't allow for that. Now it's going to come down to, in my opinion, GMs that know how to build real teams. [40:06] I really do. I think, you know, I, [40:09] Coaches get fired all the time, right? I think this is the era of GMs, you better do your job. [40:17] You all got the same type of money. You got a draft right. [40:21] You have to trade right. And more importantly, you have to sign right. I think this is also the era that most stars stay home. [40:29] You're not going to see a whole bunch of movement anymore. It's not going to be a bunch of guys just leaving their team. I think you'll see more of the stars staying at home. Number one, they can make more money. And number two, teams can build around them. So it's going to come down to, yeah, we know you can get us Kevin Durant.

[40:44] Well, we know you can get James Harden, but how do you build around that? [40:49] How do you put enough pieces around that? And so I think that's going to be the biggest change. Now, I will say this. [40:57] Mid-season, Bill. [41:00] Everyone said they're the dynasty. [41:02] And it's in Oklahoma. [41:04] And we've been proven once again. Right. There are no daddies. There are no daddies. Winning is, people, when I hear... [41:12] People talk about, well, they've just got to win the title. [41:15] People have no idea how hard it is to win. [41:18] Everything has to go right for you. You got to get lucky at times. You got to stay healthy. You got to make big shots. Someone you don't know on your team has to make and they all have to get along and buy in. It just takes it takes so much to win. And that's what I mean by you better build the right guys on that team. And it's got to be one through 15. [41:42] And I think that's the biggest difference. [41:45] Can you talk about how different it is now with all the two-way guys? [41:50] And having a bigger roster, how do you manage that? [41:53] I think that's hurt in some ways. I think the smart teams... [41:58] San Antonio, give a great example. Okay, yeah, they still have all their two-way guys, but they thought it was smart enough. [42:07] to get some vets, some older vets, [42:09] on their team, Cornette and Harrison Barnes. Oh, Lenny.

[42:14] Olenek, the, like, [42:16] that's a smart move. Now those could be two ways. [42:19] And I think a lot of the teams wouldn't sign those guys, Bill. And those are the teams that aren't winning. I'm telling you, you need a couple of those guys at the back of your bench. I always thought in Boston, we had the stars and then we had the older guys and it kind of boxed in the young guys. They had nowhere to go but to listen. You know, and I think that's really important on teams. So but it's harder now. You have these two way guys. [42:49] It's what it's doing. I do like it. [42:53] But if you are one of those teams that have a chance to win, you may have to give up one of those two ways to sign a veteran. [43:00] on your team. A good veteran. Not a guy that just wants to talk and can't play, can't do anything. These guys are important. And all the teams have them. All the good teams do. Right. That's how guys like Pat Connaughton... [43:13] Olenek, these guys end up hanging, Joe Ingles, these guys end up hanging around for two extra years because they're not going to be [43:20] Talking to the teammates. [43:21] one, two, and three about, oh, I should be playing. Yeah. I don't know why I'm not in. Think about what Charlotte did. Charlotte has had a chemistry, culture problem, [43:31] They brought in Pat forever. Right? Yeah. You remember they cut back out of him for one day and went back and re-signed him because they knew he's not going to play [43:42] But he's good. Now that doesn't last. That probably won't even last next year. They'll probably have to go get someone else. But those type of guys are invaluable. Coaches in the old days, you know, when I first started coaching, you would always put someone at the end of your bench that you knew had your back.

[43:58] I remember Monty Williams when I was in Orlando. I just assigned Monty, you know, middle or late to his career. But I knew Monty was going to be loyal. [44:06] That's what teams coaches did that all the time. Not as much anymore. You actually need guys that are just great team guys now. [44:14] Um, [44:16] I got a lot of emails wondering if the Chet Holmgren... [44:19] series against Wemby had parallels to Ben Simmons and the infamous Atlanta Hawks series that you coached. No, no, no. Completely different. You think Chet's fine? Okay. I just want to make sure. He did not want to look at the rim anymore in game seven. I was getting flashbacks. Yeah, well, first of all, he didn't get it a lot either. You're right. You're right. He was out. He just was out playing. It was clear. This is why I like Wemby. It was so funny. I love Chet too, [44:49] reason. [44:50] He takes Chet personal. Chet's the greatest guy. And so is Wimby. But [44:57] You know, women will never, he can't stand them. [44:59] Wendy sees him. [45:01] And he goes right after him. And it's so obvious. Well, you had, that was Zach Randolph and Blake Griffin, remember? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Same thing. Same thing. Zach Randolph, for some reason, hated Blake Griffin. And every time he saw him, he just wanted to go at him. [45:17] Yeah, and it's so interesting because – [45:19] All they did, somebody compared them. [45:22] Yeah. [45:23] And for whatever reason, Wendy has Michael Jordan. That's what I call his Michael Jordan guys. Like,

[45:30] You know, if you compare anything to Michael... [45:33] You had to deal with Michael, and that's what it is. But listen, Chet's still one of the top four or five best defenders at his size in the league. He's still an all-defensive guy. He's going to be a better offensive team player. Oklahoma had two guys out in this series, and they should not overreact, nor will they, unless they got a great deal. [45:55] That was the last question I had from you, from Eli in Chicago, talking about the Czech Game 7. And he said, can you imagine what your podcast would have been like after Scottie Pippen's migraine game in the 90s? [46:07] Eastern Conference Finals when the Bulls lost to the bad boys, you would have had topics like, can MJ win without a real number two? Who can they get for Pippen? Can Phil find five guys to trust? And I do wonder, like, this culture we're in now, [46:21] You know, when we were... [46:22] when you were in the league in the beginning, like magic sucked in the 84 finals, right? Yeah. Pippen had the migraine game. Like people would, worthy had the 84 finals when he threw the pass to Henderson for the steal. And, [46:34] Teams would lose and they would just move on. Isaiah. Turns the ball over. The game's over. Turns the ball over and flips the series. You know, when we were in with the Clippers, Chris Paul had [46:45] Two of the worst minutes in the history of the game, right? Against Oklahoma City, yeah. Yeah, that game's over with. You know, can you imagine... [46:53] If there was a podcast during those times, I mean, that's all we would talk about. And all those players, for the most part, recovered and had great careers. You know, Ben's right.

[47:03] Would be the exception to the rule. Yeah, because this was... [47:08] You only have one champion every year. You have 30 teams. There's going to be some ups and downs. [47:14] Sometimes it's not going to be your year. You're going to have bad luck. You're going to have Jayla Williams get hurt. You're going to have Chick get psyched out in a series. [47:20] It's a tough one, though, because they are. Most times, it's not going to be a year. [47:24] Like if you really thought about it, like if championship is the only thing, then most of the time it's not going to be your year. And a lot of times you go into the season knowing if that's the bar. [47:35] This is not our year. Like, if you're honest. Now, when you have a shot at it, [47:40] then you go after it. I've been fortunate. I've had some teams that, you know, you can make a case, had a chance, maybe not when you look back on them, but at least we were trying to get it. But even that, you know, I coached 20, what, five years. [47:55] What... [47:56] Five times, six times, seven times. You know, it's not that many chances that you get unless... [48:02] You're on one of those teams that you win young and everybody stays and you get a chance to coach a star over and over and over again. Phil Jackson has had that. Steve Kerr's had that. Pop has done it. [48:15] Really in three iterations, really two. I mean, because you got to combine the David Robinson, Tim Duncan. [48:22] but then Ginobili and Jim Duncan they're all with Duncan though you can make a case they all were Duncan related [48:30] And now... [48:31] You know, this is where I got love pop, right?

[48:34] this is where it bothers me the most. That bothers me because I love Mitch. Is that [48:43] Pop probably was thinking about retirement. [48:46] Right. And then he's like, oh, my gosh. [48:48] I got this guy. I hit the jackpot. Yeah. I hit the jackpot again. And then it kind of gets taken away from him. [48:56] That's really sad to me. For whatever reason, I don't know why it's sad to me. [49:00] But it's really sad to me. [49:03] Well, you mentioned Steve Kerr. [49:05] and how lucky you are to be able to get to coach somebody for most of their career, their entire career. [49:12] He's just never leaving Steph. [49:14] It's become clear. I think he might just move in the steps... [49:17] Steph's guest room or something. He never wants to leave that guy. [49:20] Listen, but you think about the multiple winning guys. [49:24] Michael, stone-blooded killer. [49:27] great guy, kind of great blue guy team-wise in a tough way. Tim Duncan, come on. You can't have [49:36] like a better guy, a better leader of a team. And Steph, you can't have a better leader. You know, [49:44] As much as I love LeBron, Katie, and all these guys. [49:48] that part of it they really did not have. Or I don't know if they didn't have it. But Steph is just... [49:56] He's so coachable. [49:58] All those guys are coachable. Michael Jordan is crazy and tough as he was. [50:03] The one thing you always heard about him, he respects coaching.

[50:07] Like he really did. I think it came from Dean. I think Dean kind of embedded that in him. Tim Duncan, [50:15] Clearly did. [50:17] Um, and, uh, [50:18] Steph clearly does. [50:20] And it's easy to build around [50:23] Guys like that, you know. And none of those teams have you ever heard Tim Duncan. [50:28] Have you ever heard Tim Duncan say, this is my team? Right. Have you ever heard Steph say, [50:34] This is my team. Think about Steph winning and got KD. He care less. [50:40] You never heard him say, I'm on my team. This is my team, you know. [50:44] And in... [50:46] Michael didn't have to say it, but I do think that kind of stuff matters. [50:52] Well, you talk about Michael and Curry and Duncan, and then I think Wemby and Brunson are both like this too, which is ironic. They're playing the finals, but they're like... [51:00] I'm here. I'm with you guys to the bitter end. [51:03] Build around me. [51:04] I'll be the leader. I'm going to stick up for everybody else, but I'm not going to leverage anything. I'm not going to go to the papers. And I'm just... [51:11] I trust you to build the right team around. Never going to hear them whispers, you know, rumors... [51:17] They're just not going to do that. And that's part of what I mean about character. I mean, that's so important on teams, especially winning teams. [51:25] All right, Doc Rivers. Well, I'm going to make you come back at least one more time during the finals. How's our guy Larry David doing? Is he all right? He's going to make it through game one. He's actually going to the garden, which I'm shocked by, but he's going to do it. But we do know.

[51:41] If things aren't going well by the third quarter, he'll leave. He will absolutely leave. All right. Thanks, Doc. We're going to take a break. Come back with a little mailbag. Thank you. Take care. [51:52] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. [51:56] So I'll come down to this. Who do you think will be wearing the ring at the end of the NBA Finals? Make your call with FanDuel. Right now, new customers can hit the court [52:04] With $350 of bonus bets guaranteed after betting $3,000, [52:08] $5. [52:10] for seven straight days. FanDuel, the best place to bet all your favorite players during the finals. Bet on their baskets and boards. Build the same game parlay for a chance tomorrow. [52:19] Any bigger pay up at futures, do whatever you want to do. Visit fando.com slash BS. [52:24] To get started, 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC. Kentucky or Wyoming, restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fandor.com. [52:33] If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone]. [52:36] 79-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. [52:41] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [52:44] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [52:51] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [52:55] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [53:01] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market.

[53:20] This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [53:33] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [53:37] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [53:40] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. [53:49] All right, I'm going to do a little solo mailbag. Got a lot of good mailbag questions. You can email us as always at bspodcast33 at gmail.com. The most emails I got, two subjects. [54:00] One was Steven Spielberg coming on and doing 2001 a space odyssey and the rewatchables. Uh, [54:06] Just a lot of questions. Surprise that that was a surprise guess that we did not tip off. And also... [54:13] I think everybody thought it was a pretty amazing podcast. [54:15] Myself included. [54:18] The biggest question was, what was he like? What was it like to sit there for two hours with him? And... [54:24] Here's what I would say. One thing I've learned over the years when you're with... [54:29] Or in the presence of somebody who's really great at what they do, no matter what it is. [54:33] um, there's going to be a joy and a passion and a love for whatever their expertise is that, um, they can't hide. And it really is one of the reasons that they're so good at what they do. And you can see with Spielberg, um, greatest living director, um, probably the greatest director we've ever had,

[54:51] And... [54:52] Just loves movies. Just loves talking about them. Loves the whole process of them. [54:57] the stories he was telling about the set, how he does, you know, how he interacts with different actors, depending on what their methods are. Just a huge student of it. And, [55:07] I don't know. After spending two hours with him and just seeing how much fun he was having with us and with the format and just discussing the movie, the whole thing made sense. Like, yeah, of course he's the best director. This is how much he loves movies. This is his life. This is what he's devoted it to. [55:23] So that's the thing. That would be the big takeaway for me, especially if somebody comes in. They haven't been over at the studio in my house. They don't really know what's going to happen. And he just completely bought in and was so excited to talk about the movie with us. [55:37] That was really cool. The other subject... [55:40] Um, [55:41] People are wondering why I didn't seem more excited about the AJ Brown trade when I did the podcast with Max Kellerman on Tuesday. [55:48] So he's definitely one of the five or six best receivers in the league, and he's going to be 29 when this season starts. So you figure they'll get three, four seasons out of him. [56:00] ideally when he'll be awesome. [56:03] Two would be a worst case scenario. It's a little like trading for Giannis, where it's like, you know, you're probably going to get two really good seasons after that. You don't know. The salary stuff is pretty easy. He's in the high 20s. You don't have all of these crazy bonuses that you get if you're just signing a guy. The reason I didn't seem more excited about it is...

[56:22] I'm not positive why his production dipped the last couple of years. And there's been a lot of good dialogue and a lot of good stats about this, about when he was at Tennessee, he was over the middle a lot more. At Philly, he wasn't. They basically just used him on the sides. [56:36] And yet all the stuff with the man-to-man stats with him, he's like, [56:40] Either he's the best receiver or one of the best receivers are just getting open and just being able to catch balls in traffic, everything. [56:47] So the question for me is like, [56:51] Did he just kind of lose the will to live as a receiver by like 5%, especially last year after they won the Super Bowl? [56:58] because he wasn't being used in the way that he would have loved. [57:02] And ultimately, these guys have to be inherently selfish to be great at receiver. And he's just like, I'm here. I'm a race car. I'm in the driveway. Please use me. Take me on the highway. You're not taking me on the highway enough. My engine needs to rev. And he's just going to come to the Patriots and the Patriots are going to use him that way. And it'll be Moss in 2007 all over again. [57:22] Or do you get a little worried that the Eagles, who have always been a step ahead of everybody really for the last nine, ten years, who seem like they're selling high and a guy that they traded a first-round pick for, rode for a few years, got a Super Bowl out, then traded him for another first-round pick? [57:38] How much did they know? Did they think he was heading toward a different phase of his career? I'm old enough to remember a lot of different [57:45] receiver trades of guys in their late 20s, early 30s who were awesome, might be awesome again, and [57:52] You just don't know. I think the Patriots had to do it. I wish they would have had to been able to put a protection on that 2020 pick. But ultimately, the reason they didn't win the Super Bowl last year,

[58:03] and got kind of killed in the big game wasn't just because they didn't have an awesome receiver. It was because they couldn't block. And to me, with the tougher schedule and all the things that are happening – [58:13] this season with the Super Bowl hangover. [58:16] And not knowing if Drake Mays 100%, I'm glad we're going to have guys who can get open and we're going to have big play guys. And we might have a guy who's going to have 150 targets and 1,500 yards receiving and 15 touchdowns and he's just going to be awesome. [58:30] But if they can't block, none of it's going to matter. So I'm a little more worried about that. Anyway, I was... [58:36] I'm probably like 70-30, 70 optimistic, [58:40] 30, a little suspicious why we were able to just grab... [58:46] One of the five or six best receivers in the league for a pick two years from now. [58:50] Thank you. [58:50] That's why I was a little tempered. Anyway, some mailbag questions. Got a lot of questions or a lot of answers. [58:57] from different readers about Zach and I wondering what to call the Wemby box and when. [59:02] And everyone was saying, just call it Area 51. [59:06] Adam from Toronto said... [59:08] Call it what's in the box after seven. [59:11] But Kyle T wanted to call it the French Press. Thought that was fun. But the one, Dan from Seattle was the first one that sent it. And there were a couple more after it. [59:22] This is the best one. [59:24] Vic in a box. [59:26] Dan from Seattle wrote, Vic in a box and boom goes the dynamite. [59:30] Perfect. Vick in a Box is great.

[59:34] It's an homage to, I think Vic in the Box was 20 years ago, that SNL thing, but I love Vic in the Box and I'm going to be calling that from now on. So if they do it against the Knicks, [59:44] You could just say, look, oh, they're playing Vick in a Box. [59:49] Stephen got this email a few times too, and I should have, and I'm about to apologize. [59:55] Steven from San Francisco, listening to the Kellerman Pod, wants to make sure he's not taking crazy pills. [1:00:00] Because we talked about the best crowd killers in the world. [1:00:03] And never mentioned a guy named Steph Curry, the greatest shooter ever. The second that got brought up, I like many others immediately thought of the OKC game winner in 16 or the 2022 finals game four game six. What am I missing with the definition of crowd killer and how was he omitted? Well, [1:00:20] obviously Steph would have been there. We kind of stumbled into that conversation. There was not a lot. [1:00:24] of thought put into the post-2010 guys, obviously, because we didn't include Steph Curry. That conversation started, just to remind you, it was what I wrote about Walt Frazier in my basketball book in 2009. [1:00:36] Uh, and I wrote, I'm too young to remember watching Clyde live, but he was a legendary crowd killer by all accounts in my basketball watching lifetime. Only seven guys were crowd killers, Jordan bird, Kobe, Bernard, Isaiah, Andrew, Tony, and strangely enough, Vinnie Johnson. [1:00:51] So those are my seven. [1:00:52] All right, so I actually... [1:00:54] Went in, I looked through basketball reference, I looked through all the scores, I really wanted to make sure I didn't miss anybody. And I also want to explain the definition of a crowd killer because... [1:01:03] There's been a bunch of guys we've had in the last 15 years that have had moments that would have been added to that list. Like most famously, LeBron game six 2012 in the East. LeBron, Durant, Kyrie, Kawhi, Dame, even James Harden. They've all had crowd killer moments, but I think the crowd killer thing is it's a little different because...

[1:01:23] It's a recognizable heat check, but there's an inevitability to it. And that's what we were talking about with Brunson in that Cleveland game. [1:01:31] They're down 22 and he makes a couple and the inevitability kicks them like, Oh boy, I've, I've been here before. Um, [1:01:39] I think Edwards can get here. [1:01:41] He's not there yet on this list. [1:01:44] I think he can get there. He would be a draft pick for me. And I think SGA is like 95% there. And the thing that probably kills him with this is the fouls and the flopping. And sometimes the crowd is so mad at some of the calls that they're not being killed because they're actually engaged because they're mad at SGA. So he doesn't really 100% fit, but maybe he'll... [1:02:05] Get in there. So for the last 15 years, I had initially Jordan Bird, Kobe Bernard, Isaiah Tony, Vinnie Johnson. From the last... [1:02:14] 15 years, you have to add Steph, and you have to add Brunson. [1:02:18] There's one other guy, though. I think Wemby has to be added. [1:02:22] Even though he's 22 and even though his whole career is ahead of him, and who knows, this might be the peak. But the combo of him on defense – [1:02:30] And then him, when he gets going on offense... [1:02:32] And his ability to make 30-foot threes like he did in game one of the OKC series was... [1:02:39] I think Wemby might be the 10th. He might be the only center. It's funny, Embiid had had a couple crowd killer moments, but we've never seen him do it. It really mattered. [1:02:48] But Wemby, I think, when Wemby is kind of starting to levitate above the game, the crowd gets psyched out in a real noticeable way that you could feel. So that would be the 10th. Jonathan C. writes...

[1:03:00] Is there any country that had a worst eight sports months than Canada? [1:03:04] Blue Jays won out from World Series champs. The Bills flame out. I like that candidate claims the Bills. They should. They lose to their biggest rival in OT in men's and women's Olympic hockey. Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg all miss the playoffs. Montreal makes the Eastern Finals and loses. [1:03:22] to the former Hartford Whalers. [1:03:23] SGA becomes one of the most maligned players in the league and loses in game seven. [1:03:28] He's still going. We have no Canadians in golf or tennis making an impact and no MMA guys. He's still going. Bret Hart came off awful in the Hogan documentary. [1:03:39] And then he said, Sammy Zane... [1:03:41] seems lost lately. Help us out, Bill. [1:03:45] Um... [1:03:47] Jamal Murray just said he wasn't playing for the 2020 Canadian team. That was another thing that came out. The Maple Leafs won the lottery. [1:03:55] That's all I got. [1:03:56] SGA won the title last year? He's... [1:03:59] Going to be, he's already probably one of the best 30 guards, 30 players of all time. I don't know. It could be worse. You got to figure out the hockey thing, though. Not winning a cup since 93 when it's your national sport is fantastic. [1:04:10] Pretty embarrassing. There's got to be a lot of soul searching going there. [1:04:14] I got a lot of emails about this. I'll just read three. [1:04:17] Alistar in the Blue Mountains of Australia. That's how far this theory has trickled. [1:04:23] What if game seven was the Ben Simmons game of Chet's career? And he put in parentheses, professional fisherman Ben Simmons, not my son Ben Simmons.

[1:04:32] Chris from Philadelphia said, Chris's Spurs series, or Chet's Spurs series, reminds me of when Ben Simmons' career ended. [1:04:39] against the 2011 Hawks and how he completely imploded. I look back at the box score from game seven and Simmons went two for four from the field. He did have 13 assists, but still [1:04:49] Maybe this ends with a Chet versus Simmons Bassmaster classic in 2035. I want to hear your thoughts. [1:04:56] And then the last one I got on this was from MJ from Milwaukee. My comp from Chet is Rocky and Rocky III facing Wemby as Clover Lang. I think I made that joke. He was scared. He didn't want any part of him. Too fast. Hasn't say anything like this. Wemby basically said, don't get this suck of those statues. Give them guts. My question, who's going to be Chet's Apollo? [1:05:15] Who's going to take him to the gym and find his quickness? [1:05:18] Who's going to race him on the beach, hug him uncomfortably? [1:05:21] There is no tomorrow. [1:05:22] From MJ, from Milwaukee. [1:05:25] I don't think that person exists. [1:05:29] Here's the thing. This is... [1:05:31] A couple of OKC fans emailed about this, too, and I hadn't thought of it, about when OKC lost to Dallas the first time they made a playoff run in 2024 when Dallas made the finals. And Dallas guarded Chet a little bit similarly, where... [1:05:46] He's a slow-release three-point guy, so you can kind of play off him and then dive back at him, which is what the Spurs were doing. And I think his real Achilles heel, other than he's in the same league as – [1:05:59] a 7'6 UFO. [1:06:01] is that he's got to figure out how to have a quick release on those corner threes because he's a good three-point shooter.

[1:06:07] I still like Chet. I'm not going to get psyched out by that series. We talked about this in one of the pods recently. There's been a lot of great players that have sucked in the playoffs. At his age and what we've seen from him so far and the fact that they've already won a title with him, I'm... [1:06:24] Not quitting on shit. With that said, [1:06:27] I still want to know who says no to a Chet to the Clippers for the fifth pick. [1:06:32] trade because the Clippers do have cap space. [1:06:35] And that would give them the foundation of Chet and Garland. [1:06:38] and Kawhi Leonard, and then they could kind of patch around the sides. They've been really good at finding like mid-level free agents and veteran guys. [1:06:47] One trade I thought of, Quippers get Chet. [1:06:50] And a future Kings first. So they move back two spots. Kings get the fifth pick so they can take Acuff, who I think is going to go fifth. OKC gets the seventh pick from the Clippers. [1:07:01] And then they take Mara, the Michigan center. [1:07:05] And, um... [1:07:07] That's their Chet replacement along with Hartenstein. They save a bunch of, they would save 30 plus million dollars with Chet versus the seventh pick Hartenstein, the whole thing. So I kind of liked that one. Plus the Clippers, they're, [1:07:19] Could... [1:07:20] pick up a future King's asset and still get Chet. Um, [1:07:24] That's around the range. I don't think top four is a Chet range, but I think five to seven could be a Chet range. But as I said earlier, [1:07:32] multiple times already. It is not Presti's [1:07:36] history or or uh it's just never something we've seen he's not a panic trade guy and he's not a oh god we got to do something guy he's a continuity guy

[1:07:45] Um, Andrew, speaking of fake trades, Andrew said, it's not just the finals, it's fake trade season. [1:07:50] You should come up with at least one fake trade for every podcast episode until free agency starts. But we are doing a lot of episodes this month. [1:07:58] Or rank your favorite five fake trades every Sunday night with Zach. [1:08:03] More fake trades, exclamation point. I don't have a question. [1:08:08] If we ranked our favorite fake trades every Sunday night with Zach, he would spend way too much time on that and probably have to be hospitalized. But I'm not against it. [1:08:17] Okay, June 3rd, 2016. My favorite fake trades right now. [1:08:22] One of them is a Celtics one that I've kind of been hinting at for the last couple weeks on this podcast. I keep mentioning... [1:08:28] Murphy on the Pelicans as... [1:08:31] a possible Celtics piece. And the reason is because if the Celtics decide... [1:08:37] We already won a title with the Jays. We don't want to pay both of these guys. Right now, they're two of the top seven contracts in the league. [1:08:44] And not just by length of the deal, by what their price tag is just for the 2026-27 season. And if they decide that's not sustainable in this current era, we have to figure out how to turn Jalen Brown into a... [1:08:57] multiple pieces and a cheaper guy. Trey Murphy makes 25 million. [1:09:02] which is $30 million less than Jalen Brown. [1:09:05] Here's the trade. [1:09:06] The Celtics would get Trey Murphy, [1:09:09] Missy, the young center who I like, [1:09:12] Herb Jones. [1:09:14] And Cam Johnson from the Nuggets, stay with me, plus a 2030 Pelican swap.

[1:09:20] And pick 26. [1:09:23] from Denver, which they would have to do after the draft because Denver's not allowed to trade their first-round pick. [1:09:29] New Orleans gets Jalen Brown. [1:09:30] Denver gets Sam Hauser and pick 40. [1:09:34] in the trade. [1:09:36] So then the Celtics would have too many swingmen and then they could flip Herb Jones for something else. [1:09:41] The other thing about Cam Johnson, they could put him in their giant trade exception they get. But I think if the Celtics trade Jalen, I don't think it's going to be for Giannis. I think it's going to be a trade like this. [1:09:51] multiple pieces, more flexibility, [1:09:54] um guys that would lead to one extra move after this and i i think that's what they're thinking i also think they could separately just trade sam hauser for cam johnson and put him in that trade exception and get pick 26 and try to pick 26 and 27 in the draft [1:10:08] Then see if you can move up into the teams with those two picks. I mentioned Denver the other day and a bunch of Nuggets fans were, [1:10:15] Nuggets media members are mad. Bring it on. [1:10:18] I stand by what I said. Hey, Denver, you're rich. I know about the second apron tax. I know about all that shit. But [1:10:24] They could... [1:10:25] Um, just, um, [1:10:27] not pick up the Valanciunas contract for this year and then figure out how to trade Cam Johnson for less and sign Peyton Watson. And by the way, I don't think Peyton Watson's getting as much money as everybody thinks. I don't know where his 20 million a year is coming from. We saw the guy play well for like five weeks and he got hurt. Six weeks, eight weeks. I can't remember what it was. [1:10:46] But I don't think, I don't, I think that's the range of guys that everybody's scared of right now. 17 to 17.

[1:10:52] 22 million where you're overpaying like basically exactly what happened to the nuggets last year with Christian Brown, who I think was hurt last year, but, um, [1:11:01] But, [1:11:03] If I'm Denver... [1:11:04] I'm not picking up Valanchunas, and I'm trying to downgrade with Cam Johnson. And if I'm the Celtics and I can turn Sam Hauser into Cam Johnson, I'm going to go [1:11:12] And then if, if, [1:11:14] It is time to trade Jalen Brown. Who knows? [1:11:17] My instinct is still that they're going to keep these guys. But if you could turn Sam Hauser into Cam Johnson... [1:11:22] Do it, especially because he's expiring at 23 million. That gives you flexibility for February. I think everything in the Celtics are going to do this summer is going to be about flexibility. They have a lot of young players that they like. They have two giant contracts. They don't have really any of the in-between stuff. They have the Pritchard extension coming. Anyway, that's my first trade. [1:11:41] Second one, Portland gets Giannis and all his brothers. [1:11:44] I think there's only two. [1:11:46] Milwaukee gets Jeremy Grant's scoot. All their pick swaps back. Portland has, I think, two firsts and a swap, something like that. [1:11:54] plus another first and another swap. [1:11:56] And Portland gets you on us. [1:11:58] Listen, we've talked about this trade before. I'm not breaking new ground here. [1:12:02] Um, [1:12:03] And I don't know if Giannis wants to go to Portland. I had heard he wants to be in the East Coast. That's too far for him. And who knows if he wants to play for El Chippo. [1:12:10] the Blazers owner, who's already on a media tour trying to claim that he's not El Chippo. Plus, Carolina is in the Stanley Cup Finals. So he's like, look, my El Chippo stuff works. [1:12:20] If Portland can figure out how to get Giannis without really giving up anything in their core and being able to put him with Drew Holiday and Klingon and Kamara...

[1:12:29] And, um, and most importantly, Denny, [1:12:32] And, [1:12:33] I just think, [1:12:35] That's a better situation for him than Miami trading basically everything they have except Bam Adebayo and all their picks and just ending up with Bam and Giannis and trying to figure it out. [1:12:45] Um, [1:12:46] That's the most fun. I'd love to see Giannis on that team. Reunited with Dame. Reunited with Drew Holiday. [1:12:52] uh, [1:12:54] The other one would be Paolo Freana, straight up. [1:12:57] And I don't know who has to throw in more for that. But as we mentioned a few pods ago, [1:13:02] Orlando hired Giannis' old assistant in Milwaukee, Sean Sweeney, who is the all-time, I can't believe you're not from Massachusetts, Massachusetts guy in the NBA, Sean Sweeney. [1:13:12] But Palafrianus makes a ton of sense for everybody. The last one, [1:13:16] Washington gets Jimmy Butler and a Golden State 27 first unprotected. [1:13:21] Golden State gets Anthony Davis. [1:13:23] followed by, [1:13:26] followed by, [1:13:28] by the Warriors... [1:13:30] Signing LeBron James. [1:13:33] And we officially had the expendables again. [1:13:35] We have Anthony Davis. We have LeBron. We have Draymond. [1:13:39] We have Steph Curry. [1:13:40] By the way, they can get Jimmy Butler back thanks to this stupid Mike Conley role that nobody ever knew about where Mike Conley got traded by Minnesota... [1:13:48] to I think Washington or Chicago somewhere, [1:13:51] Then got traded again and waived, and all of a sudden, Minnesota was able to pick them up. So maybe they could end up picking them back up in February. But I'm all in. Listen, I've been driving this Golden State bandwagon. I also think there's real smoke.

[1:14:04] And I think there's some fire with LeBron going to Golden State. [1:14:07] I think it's his best option, especially when you look at San Antonio and you look at OKC. [1:14:12] the young cores they have, how good their players are, and what the ceiling of those teams are compared to any other situation LeBron could be in, you're better off doing the all-star team. [1:14:25] And the tour with Steph and the puncher's chance that maybe all these old guys together could do some magic in the playoffs one last time. They'd sell out every arena. Everybody would be in on it. I still love that idea. [1:14:42] What do you make of the Thunder's honor level in their title defense? And how does it make their 25 title look? I think the parallels, the 2015 and 16 Warriors, the 10th. [1:14:51] The 16 run proved the 2015 team was legit. I completely agree. [1:14:57] I've talked about this a lot. Title defenses are really important to me. I wrote about it in my book. It's the biggest thing you can ding the 83 Sixers on. [1:15:04] They lost in five to a really weird Nets team in 1984. And I... [1:15:09] I feel like when you win the title, you got to defend it in some way. [1:15:13] you have to have a little bit of pride. [1:15:16] 87 Celtics being the best example of this. The team's just breaking down like an army platoon, and there's still somebody who will make the finals. I would give OKC's defense an 8.5. [1:15:27] The Jalen Williams thing, the further we get away from it, losing your second best guy, I was trying to think, is there another example of anyone in this century who lost their second best guy and won the title? No.

[1:15:37] They went 75 and 22 this year. Eight of their losses came against the Spurs. [1:15:43] They went 71-14 against everyone who was in the Spurs this year. [1:15:48] And they went 155 and 35 in two years. So I thought that was an awesome title defense. Plus they turned into villains. [1:15:55] What else do you want? And now they have the eye of the tiger for next year. We have a great Chet subplot. Maybe he goes to Australia. [1:16:01] Hikes the Outback, grows a beard. [1:16:04] There's a bigger beard. He has a beard. [1:16:05] Big bushier beard. Noah from Conway, South Carolina said, massive Spurs fan here. [1:16:12] My question is, when be the first true non-USA face of the league? [1:16:17] Has Shea or Yoke ever truly been the face? Has the media or the fans truly ever accepted them? He mentions Hakeem. He mentions Dirk. [1:16:24] Nash, um, [1:16:26] Even as USA has fallen behind in the best in the league conversation, it feels like Yoko, Giannis, and Shea, [1:16:32] I've not got ass in their seats. Like Wemby, thoughts? I hate the face of the week. [1:16:38] I said multiple times, I don't like it. I think it's stupid. People act like we always have to have one. It's kind of... [1:16:46] It's the mountain in the league they have to climb if you want to win the title that people are just thinking about at all times is how I would think about it. And in football... [1:16:56] you know, as Brady forever. And then it just became Mahomes. And it was like, if you get by Mahomes... [1:17:01] that was almost as big of an achievement as winning the title. So I think that's a piece of it combined with the mom test of

[1:17:08] Um, does my mom know who this player is? Does your mom know who this player is? Does anyone who doesn't follow sports know who the player is? Are they bringing in casual fans? [1:17:17] And is just their general recognition [1:17:20] of the person. And we have just not had this since LeBron and Curry. And we definitely have a now with Wemby. And this is what I said all along. You know it when you see it. You can't force it. You can't say, oh, it's Grant Hill. Ah, it's SGA. You just can't. [1:17:33] You know when you see it, Jokic was 90% there but never totally got there. He doesn't resonate like Wemby did. [1:17:39] LeBron was that guy from 2011 to 16. Curry and the Warriors collectively were, [1:17:46] from the second part of that decade, Kobe and Shaq together, MJ, Bird of Magic, simultaneously, Kareem. You know it when you see it. And Wemby has it right now, no matter what happens in this finals. [1:17:58] Next year, when we go into the next season, we'll be talking about Wemby and the Spurs, who could beat them. And also Wemby, Wemby, Wemby, Wemby. And he will sell out every arena he's in. He will get the biggest ratings. And... [1:18:09] That's what happens. Um, [1:18:11] Josh S wants to know if the Knicks win the title this year, is this the most improbable NBA championship when compared to where everything stood at the start of the playoffs? [1:18:21] They completely revamped their offense halfway through a playoff series. Their best player is four foot seven. I think he's taller than that. [1:18:29] And it's the fucking New York Knicks. Given where we were six weeks ago, this would be the most improbable championship if they pulled it out. [1:18:35] So they were six to one to win the East before the playoffs. I gave, I tweeted out some pics before the playoffs and one of the, uh,

[1:18:44] long shot picks was... [1:18:46] Brunson to be the Eastern... [1:18:48] conference MVP was plus 650. And I think they were six to one when the East [1:18:53] That obviously flipped. So for improbable championships, 22 Warriors, 22 Warriors, [1:19:00] The 2011 Dallas... [1:19:02] 1977 Blazers. [1:19:06] The 19... [1:19:09] 78 Sonics making the finals. They didn't win, but that was incredibly improbable, as was the 20 and 23 heats. But neither of those teams won either. The 75 Warriors was pretty improbable. [1:19:20] And then the 69 Celtics are the big ones. But I think the parallels to this one would be the 2011 Mavericks. [1:19:28] where very similar to the Mavericks, where it felt like they hit rock bottom in the first series. And the Mavericks had Portland. And then there was multiple times when it just felt like, [1:19:38] They didn't have a chance. Then they even get to the finals. They're two to one underdogs. So. [1:19:42] I would say the 2011 Dallas. The 22 Warriors, it was always felt like if they could just stay healthy and figure out their shit. [1:19:50] Um, [1:19:51] Pudence with Boston and Milwaukee. Milwaukee had Middleton banged up. Boston had never been there before. And there was always a sense like if Golden State could just get there. [1:19:59] that they could sneak it out. Dallas, [1:20:01] especially when they're down 15 in game two after having lost game one. That was improbable as the finals was happening. It seemed improbable. [1:20:10] Zach Hoag, [1:20:12] said he mentioned how I've always had a theory that championships and success come in bunches for cities.

[1:20:17] Is France having that moment right now? France, who's already won a World Cup final or made the World Cup final last two years and they've won one. [1:20:25] PSG is now one back-to-back champion league. [1:20:28] French swimmer Marchand, not very familiar with his work, but he's apparently shattering Michael Phelps' world records. The French rugby team has won a couple championships. Big deal in Europe, sure. Wemby's down in the NBA finals. You could make Casey's the best player in the NBA. [1:20:42] So Zach asks, why not hammer France to win the World Cup with the Spurs to win the NBA Finals and just bet on the summer of France? Now, you're seeing this after game one of the Finals. That was plus 770. [1:20:54] before the finals. I already had Spurs money. I threw some more on that. [1:20:58] I like that one, the year of France. So this is something I didn't realize until after I did the podcast with Max. [1:21:04] Game six of the finals. [1:21:07] is on Tuesday, June 16th. And that same day, France is playing in New Jersey. [1:21:14] at the giant football stadium they have a world cup game at 12 and then [1:21:19] potentially game six with the Knicks would be that night. And people could be like, could you try to go to both? [1:21:25] It's so crazy. [1:21:27] that France would be playing in the same night that Wemby could potentially be quenching [1:21:33] his first NBA championship that I almost feel like is destined to happen. I really do. [1:21:38] I was thinking about when I, in 1994, [1:21:41] Um, [1:21:43] I went, my buddy Jim Grady was living in Portchester with my friend Camp. And I went up there and we were supposed to watch...

[1:21:49] game five of nicks rockets and that was the night of the oj car chase and it just was like this crazy night that um has been immortalized in multiple tv shows and documentaries and they're doing split screens and it was definitely one of those [1:22:03] I remember where I was when I watched this game and this whole car chase thing. I do wonder if that June 16th is going to be [1:22:10] kind of a crazy day like that with the double France thing. Just something, some sort of signature French moment. [1:22:20] Plus 770. We'll see if that one hits. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back and we're going to talk about TV shows and TV versus movies and a little seesaw that's starting to shift. And also we're going to talk about Euphoria and the season finale of that show series finale. Now we're going to talk with Joanna Robinson and Chris Ryan. And that is next right after this break. [1:22:42] This episode is brought to you by Duluth Trading Company. Whether it's the 19th inning, the 12th quarter, [1:22:48] or the fifth and a half shift over time, [1:22:52] Not going anywhere. [1:22:53] Thank you. [1:22:54] which is why Duluth builds hardworking gear for folks, [1:22:57] who work, [1:22:58] their butts off. Their surefire arsenal of work shirts are built for function and comfort, giving a big foam middle finger to all that is futile. And the new No Quit Utility Shirt is equipped with cooling and wicking tech, oh boy, to keep you comfortable, all while being tough enough to take down your most daunting, [1:23:18] tasks. When it's marathon work session versus you, give no quits.

[1:23:22] Shop at a Duluth store near you or at Duluth Trading. [1:23:26] that. [1:23:27] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One. Offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. [1:23:57] Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College Deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox Wireless Controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. [1:24:26] I can. [1:24:28] All right, I'm here with Joanna Robinson, Chris Ryan. We just did a rewatchables taping, so I kept them around to talk a little pop culture. Euphoria was last night. [1:24:35] Series finale, it sounds like. It is the series finale. They confirmed it, yeah. [1:24:39] One of... [1:24:40] my least liked, [1:24:42] seasons of television I've had. I've never gotten so many all caps texts from you. I was furious. Filled with hatred. I really hated it. Yeah. Um, [1:24:51] I hate shitting on TV. These things are hard to make. There's a million actors and

[1:24:55] our expectations, but there's certain seasons. There was a Dexter season. I remember that I was just like, I'm never fucking watching the show again. Did you keep watching it? [1:25:04] No. [1:25:05] You were out before the end of Dexter. Oh, yeah. [1:25:08] Did you do that on Lost? Did you ever freak out on Lost? [1:25:11] I didn't like the last season of Lost, but that show had built up so much goodwill for me. Euphoria, it goes away for years. Right. [1:25:19] comes back and has three of the biggest under 35 actors that we have and just fumbles it. So I was, it was an F minus for me, but what did you think? It was like a C, I, [1:25:30] I would say for me, I think there's some stuff in the finale that was really, really good. [1:25:34] But I'm baffled by the way in which this season and this finale, especially, is. [1:25:39] got bogged down in this, like there's this Nazi cohort and then there's, uh, Alamo and his, uh, bad guys. And so there's like two big shootout sequences that take up a lot of this episode, 30 minutes into the finale. And we're still like shooting Nazis. And I'm just like, [1:25:56] What about all these characters we spent all these years with? Like Hunter Schaefer plays Jules is barely in this finale. Like, you know, Cassie and Maddie are kind of in the finale. It was just really confusing to me. I understand the impulse and it's okay. [1:26:10] to want to sort of [1:26:12] Try something new with your show. We've reinvented ourselves for this season, but you still have these legacy characters that have been there from the beginning. So to not give them... [1:26:21] a conclusive story or more airtime in the final episode was absolutely insane to me. Yeah, it's probably a lot warmer on it than you guys were. The addiction stuff really worked for me. I thought the Zendaya Coleman Domingo like relationship was amazing. Very good. And I'll say what I've kind of been like trumpeting the whole year.

[1:26:41] with the show with Andy is I was just never bored. And so much TV bores me, you know, like so much of the time I'm like, oh, I can see where this is going or I know it's going to happen now is like this XYZ is going to kind of play out. [1:26:53] And when she, I guess, obviously spoilers for this episode of Euphoria, I mean, the finale. [1:26:59] But when she passes away at like the 40 minute mark and there's still another hour, she's [1:27:03] I was like, oh, are we going to spend an hour kind of remembering Rue and doing the funeral? And then it turns into fucking Taxi Driver. I was like... [1:27:10] Well, I didn't see this coming. You know, like, I kind of thought maybe Ali would sacrifice himself for Rue in some way. [1:27:17] But it was such... [1:27:18] like a weird dark fantasy of like the vengeance that probably people who lose people to addiction feel like they want to take out. Um, [1:27:28] And it was just, [1:27:29] I mean, you could say a lot of it, but it was very unique. So I'm probably more in the B zone. If you're F and she's C, I'm. [1:27:35] I'm a little bit higher on it, but just because I was like... [1:27:38] This never was dull to me. Well, that's why I wasn't sure until HBO confirmed it after we recorded our finale discussion, but that they confirmed that this is the final season. But I wasn't sure that it would be not... I mean, Jacob Elordi and Zendaya would no longer be on the show, but you have [1:27:55] plenty of other people and people are talking about it every week. Yeah. [1:27:58] That's hard to find in this TV landscape. So I was a little surprised that HBO didn't try to squeeze another season out of Sam Levinson. I've, [1:28:07] Feels like they were probably good. [1:28:10] I'm just saying. I have this idol season that was pretty crazy and super expensive. I'm sure this season was not not expensive with probably. Yeah, I think this season was also more by like the strikes and COVID and stuff like that. So it sounds like it went through a couple of different like full creative things.

[1:28:25] Plus they lost an actor. And then they lost an actor. Yeah. Lost an actor. And they also were cursed by never having their best actors all in the same scene for different reasons. I think for shooting schedules, but. Personal reasons. I really does seem like Zendaya and Cindy Sweeney did not want to be in a scene together. [1:28:43] which I think hurts the show. It was just, it felt very disjointed to me. I didn't like the Lordy stuff at all. I didn't understand it. Nate shouldn't have been in this season. That guy's a really good actor. Like what the fuck was the point of that? Nate shouldn't have been in this season at all. He just shouldn't have, or should have died in the first, if you're going to use it that way, just kill him in the first episode. The whole point of him is to create this, well, the whole point of him is to say, we have Jacob Lordy on our show. [1:29:04] in 2026, right? Yeah. That's why you keep the Lordy around. But for plot reasons, you really just needed Cassie to be in debt. And so he could have died in the, they could have had the wedding and he died in like the first episode. But that's, that stuff kind of hardly gets interrogated in the finale. Like that was one of the, my problems with it is that like this sort of chain reaction from Rue tells Lexi that she's a DA informant. Yeah. And then Lexi tells Maddie and Maddie tells Alamo that, [1:29:32] Alamo seems like probably would have found out either way, but like, [1:29:36] There's no reckoning with Maddie being like, I can't believe this is what happened to Rue. Does she even know that she's the reason? And that really bothered me because I know you're not a huge Maddie slash Alexa Demi fan, but I really love that character. And I think she's one of the smarter characters on the show. And so for her to just casually drop...

[1:29:57] this DEA information in front of Alamo, I thought was like a bizarrely stupid move to not then have any ramifications at all for that character. Like, [1:30:07] Emotionally, it's very strange. I mean, this is... [1:30:10] A show that did something in an incredible way that TV shows rarely do anymore, which is Mint Stars. When you think about the fact that there's that shot of Zendaya, the young Zendaya, when she's having her flashback. I'm like, wow, she was a kid when she started the show. So for them to have this lightning in a bottle with three performers, especially Elordi, Sweetie, and Zendaya... [1:30:38] And to kind of have it wind up where it winds up, I guess it does feel a little bit like a wasted opportunity, but it's not surprising that, [1:30:45] that, you know, like, given their schedules and stuff like that, it is disappointing, but it's not surprising that they're not more scenes together. But I just don't think something, like, Andy was just saying this today on the pod, like, I don't think anything like this is ever going to happen again, where you have this amount of, like, talent. So that's why I give it the F-minus. [1:31:02] I don't think it was an F-minus show. [1:31:04] But I think they had the opportunity to do something really special with the people they had. And I just don't think they pulled it off. You don't think he did rivalry is headed that way? You don't think off-campus is headed that way? Maybe. I don't know what they tried to do with Sydney Sweeney this season. She seemed to enjoy it. She seemed to love it. And I'm so curious what you thought of it. Were they mocking... [1:31:23] What people think is the perception of her or was he mocking her without her knowing she was being mocked? I think it was the former.

[1:31:31] I feel like it was a little column A, a little column B. I think there was just a little bit. [1:31:37] of Sydney Sweeney not being entirely in on the joke, but her being somewhat in on the joke. [1:31:43] That's how I felt. [1:31:44] So my daughter, who loved this show, and it's a big part of her generation, and she liked... [1:31:50] the finale, but she likes everything because she really liked Rue and the Coleman Domingo character. Zoe had the theory that I don't think Rue's going to die because she's the narrator. Right. And she thought that he would die and then she would take his place and so they flipped it. [1:32:07] But, yeah. [1:32:08] I guess the problem with Levinson is also the best thing about him. He can make anything look good and entertaining, right? So this turns into like a Western. We have like a whole Nazi shootout. Yeah. And it's all that's really well done and well filmed and just interesting. [1:32:23] And then you kind of think about it after you're like, what the fuck just happened? Why was that? I'm just not emotionally invested. Yeah. Why did I just spend an hour, 45 minutes watching that? And if that was a movie, would that have been a good use of my time? I don't know. I disagree with you on one thing, though. I was pretty bored through multiple stretches yesterday. I just was like, what the fuck, man? The Nazi shootout, I thought, was like a barely long. And the Lori suicide when I'm just sort of like, I don't care about this character at all. I didn't care about anybody in that house. [1:32:53] that, I mean, even when I would be like, this is the third time they've had this conversation or the fourth time this scene has happened, visually, I would be like, there's something that popped. Even the shootout in the Nazi, I thought the tunnel sequence was cool. I thought the lasso sequence was cool. There was stuff where I was like, holy shit, nobody really makes westerns like this right now.

[1:33:13] Well, and as two people who were like podcasting about it week to week, like there was always something to talk about and people were talking about it. And in this like, you know, attention economy, like the fact that people were engaged at all, even if they were angrily engaged. I mean, I don't know if that's a negative message to send, but like. [1:33:31] There's something important. Provocative about it. Yeah, important about it. I guess the bigger issue is can any show end in a way that satisfies the fan base? Yeah. Hacks finale rules also happened this week. When did the two specials come out? [1:33:44] What year? No, I mean, was it between one and two? One and two. Yeah, so between one and two, they did these two specials. One was about Jules and one's about Ali and Rue. And... [1:33:57] I remember thinking back about those just after watching last night and being like, [1:34:01] Man, like, I wonder if it would have worked better if it was like three of these weird [1:34:06] Yeah. I'm going to do a Nate movie movie. [1:34:09] I'm going to do a Cassie movie and then I'm going to do the Ollie and room movie and we'll put it all together and it'll be like, [1:34:16] a six to eight week special event of like wrapping up the euphoria storyline. Yeah. But like to your point, [1:34:23] I wonder if there was holding out hope of like, well, maybe we'll do more. Maybe like in five years, we'll come back and they'll be like, [1:34:30] They'll all be older then. And maybe I can do the Rue as a private detective story then. And, [1:34:35] All this stuff that had been kicked around as ideas. Yeah. Too much time passed. [1:34:41] And I think... [1:34:42] That was a huge problem. I think it's really hard to figure out how to land the plane correctly when you're also trying to land the plane on this is five years after the last time you've seen all these people. I mean, would I rather have had season three of Euphoria rather than The Idol? Yes. But we can't underestimate the impact that losing Angus Cloud had on this entire crew and this creator and stuff like that. So I can understand that while still not enjoying the end product of what we got.

[1:35:11] Is this better if it's just a five-year reunion for high school? [1:35:15] And we don't go completely over the top and make this like the absolute craziest. I mean, there were scenes this season where it's like, [1:35:22] You're trying to set the record for the craziest scene that's been on HBO five different times. It's like the dildo limit. Would it almost have been better... [1:35:31] scaling it back the other way and trying to make the show a little more normal when it wasn't yeah it's almost distracting at points because like when ollie is doing his vengeance tour and you're like wow i'm really engaged this guy's got his military uniform on this like rolling thunder it's happening yeah but then you've got like fake brazilian butt lifts like walking across the screen every second and i know it's set in a strip club so it like works but there's no strip like that's also just like [1:35:56] Dude. [1:35:57] fucking concentrate. Like, tell the story that's right in front of you rather than making sure I see four snakes and two butts. You have one of your main characters in the show, Maddie, here in this shootout, but she might as well have not been there. She was a piece of furniture. It was so weird. You liked the Hacks finale a lot? I loved the Hacks finale. Yeah, did you? I liked it, and it was also... But it was interesting... [1:36:18] Did you watch Hacks at all? No. [1:36:20] Something happens at Hacks where they get up to the edge of something very, very... [1:36:24] unexpected and impactful happening. [1:36:28] Uh, and they back off of it at the last second, probably for the best for like in terms of people's enjoyment of it. But I'm glad that. [1:36:37] I'm glad that with Euphoria, they were like, this is what happens to people who dance too close to the sun a little bit. But also, I would say with the Hacks finale, and I guess we're talking around it, they don't say it's not going to happen. Sure. It's just not happening in this episode. In this episode. Yeah, right.

[1:36:52] TV's in a weird spot right now, even though we're all watching a ton of it. [1:36:56] This year is very, the back half of this year is very strange. I don't know. Like, I don't know what. I think the whole year has been weird because one of the weirdest things that's happened is we thought TV had taken over from movies. [1:37:08] And now movies is having this huge renaissance because they're actually making movies about original IP. Sean just heard you across town. I know. Sorry, Sean. [1:37:17] Conversationally. [1:37:17] He and Steven Spielberg clinking espresso. [1:37:22] Conversation, I think more and more people are doing the [1:37:25] Have you seen Obsession? Yeah. It's the way it used to be. I don't know why we had to die for 10 years. [1:37:32] And I don't think it was... [1:37:33] I know we've done so many pods and different things about this, but [1:37:38] I really just think everybody got lazy for a long time, and then it finally started not making money. [1:37:43] And then it's like, well, maybe we need to find new stories. It's like, yeah, motherfuckers. Oh, in movies. Yeah. COVID definitely fucked it up and knocked it backwards. Maybe this all would happen three years sooner. [1:37:55] But movies just feel a little more vibrant than TV right now. Like if I see another fucking Apple show and I've watched most of them, [1:38:01] where it's three actors I've known a few times from different things. Yeah. And there's a murder and one of them died. And now we go backwards. And like, how many fucking times can you make that show? [1:38:12] Are you excited for Cape Fear? No, I'm not going to watch Cape Fear. Widow's Bay. We're loving Widow's Bay. Yeah. [1:38:18] Uh, the pit can get there. The pit was the last one. Yeah. I love the pit. The pit was the,

[1:38:24] You know, because I was sending you a text about... I do know. The pit was... [1:38:30] And now people are going to rip the pit off. [1:38:32] We're going to get a lot of every hour and a day. The pit was just ripping... Legally. [1:38:41] The Michael Cranes date. The pit is just doing old school television. There's something about... I think that collectively, and you could do a Matt Bellany conversation about [1:38:53] moving away from networks and into streaming services and why like different priorities change. But they're... [1:39:01] was something about the golden age of television that basically raised Joe and Joe and I as as [1:39:06] people who talk about this stuff, [1:39:08] where it was like, [1:39:09] Breaking Bad and Sopranos and some of these shows, even if maybe there had been a feature script at its origin story ever. [1:39:16] felt like a new and different way of telling stories. [1:39:21] And then when you have this gold rush and talent rush into TV, you're going to be a [1:39:26] But it's like, [1:39:28] Yeah, guess what? Nicole Kidman's going to be on this. But she can only shoot for like four weeks. So can we do all of her scenes in three sets and they have to be like [1:39:37] before we know what the end of the show is, or I'm not even talking about our specific show, but I feel like more and more you can see the scenes of shows where you're like, Oh, did that, did they actually not have like the ending or what, like what happened here? And that, and also it's connected to what Bill was saying about sort of this, like,

[1:39:55] The way in which IP or superheroes or whatever, however you care to put it, took over movies and, [1:40:01] then all those mid-level original idea movies became drawn-out limited series. Because that's the only place you could tell those stories. But you didn't have enough story there. So you just get this really thin, sort of diluted version of what would have been a good, just movies for adults movie. And... [1:40:20] people can tell you get tired of the time. A lot of those Apple shows that you're talking about are just stretched out movies that people can't get made as movies. And so they're taking them to, and you make more money if you stretch it out. There's a little behavioral going on. And I recognize it in myself where I get like three episodes into a show and I'm like, [1:40:39] That's pretty good, but I think I'm good. I got it. You know what I mean? Oh my God, you make it three? But you know what I mean? I'm like an episode and a half. I'm like, I think I'm out. You're like kind of cruising through a Netflix or an Apple or an Amazon show and you're like, [1:40:51] I think I got it. You know, like, I think that this is like kind of... Did you do any more Burroughs after we talked about it? No. I think I got it. Yeah. I agree with you. That's a good example. Legends is like a great show on Netflix. I was like, I got to finish this. But there's something daunting, especially if like, you know, like you said, like movies have kind of had this... [1:41:10] a little bit of a revival of like, we got to go out and see back rooms like the weekend it comes out because it feels like that's people are talking about it. Really? Like I couldn't believe it. I mean, we live in LA obviously where everybody loves going to the movies. [1:41:20] And we have great apps now where you can see how many seats are available and things like that. And, [1:41:25] So I was thinking about making my wife go to see back rooms last night. Mm-hmm.

[1:41:29] and looked in the morning and there were a bunch of seats left on like the 10 o'clock you know it was [1:41:36] By the time it got to 2 o'clock, everything was gone. It was sold out. It was like, holy shit. [1:41:41] And I was talking to my son about it because he, him and his friends, my son's 18. They love going to movies, obviously. But I do think a big piece of this, other than the original IP thing, people were, you [1:41:54] COVID stuck in, [1:41:56] kind of in their house for a while, not being able to go out as much. And then that started to slowly shift away. And then now it's back to normal. And now people are looking for excuses to go out again. [1:42:07] that I don't feel like was there a few years ago for a variety of reasons. They've also now, they're learning that, and they just announced that Obsession was supposed to come out this week on paid video demand. Couldn't believe it, they delayed it. And now they're delaying it for like another 30 days or 40 days. [1:42:22] And the exact opposite is happening with TV where it's like, [1:42:27] There's four or five shows a year that... [1:42:30] are big deals that are weekly and everything else is like these binge drops that it's either were you a psycho and you watched it on Friday or have you watched it over the course of two months and you got to finish it, but you haven't yet. And [1:42:43] Joe and I are both huge fans of Widow's Bay. One of the reasons why it's been kind of like this cool little show is that you can kind of feel it gain momentum. The same thing happened with The Pit. Yeah. In his first season of The Pit. Watching... [1:42:56] audiences need time to find these things. And if it was, they had been a binge jump, you wouldn't have this, like as the audience grows and then week to week and widow's base, a little bit of a theory show. So like people get to trade theories and get really invested. And I've just like,

[1:43:09] always been anti-binge. It is very antisocial. And what you're talking about in terms of this post-COVID thing is a social experience. When you go to a movie and you sit in a dark room with people and you laugh or you cry or whatever it is, you are feeling something with people around you. And we're in a [1:43:28] psychological space, societal space right now where people feel so isolated, people feel like they can't connect or agree on anything. And if you have this communal experience, TV can be that, [1:43:38] If it comes out week to week and if everyone's watching the same thing, which is so hard to capture. It's happening with sports, sporting events, too. It's like sports is completely back and attendance is doing great in all these different places. Yeah. Because people like. [1:43:50] being around other people. Yeah. Um, [1:43:53] The binge thing, we've been talking about it on this podcast forever. [1:43:58] I just don't like it. [1:44:00] It's horrible. But I'm, for selfish reasons, dating back to Grantland, it's like, it's just bad. Stranger Things was bad for us, the way the schedule was. If they had spread it out. [1:44:10] it would have been better for us. So I'm being selfish about it, but I just think the ability to dive into a show every week, wonder what just happened, what's going to happen next, I think that's how people want to watch shows. These networks aren't stupid if they thought – [1:44:25] there was more money or more interest in it being a week to week, I'm sure they would do it. [1:44:30] I do think it's a little bit of like an us problem where it's like, we like to talk about these things. We like to talk about these things episodically. I'm bummed out that the last season of the bears and go up on like a Thursday night. You know what I mean? I'm bummed out that the bear has been a confusing case the entire run because like its first season was a binge dump, but once it was such a huge thing, we were confused every year. It should have been two a week. And well, and FX is like, we've got the numbers that support this is the model for us. But like,

[1:44:57] It's more of an instant gratification versus a long-term investment thing. I'm sure the numbers prove that if you binge drop something, you will get more eyeballs on it immediately. But in terms of building a Widow's Bay audience or building a pit audience, there's longer-term benefits come Emmy season, come all these other things in terms of its endurance. Yeah, it's an us covering shows problem, but I also think it's like an impatience problem. [1:45:24] and that anxiety, that insecurity that a lot of studios and streamers are experiencing. I only... [1:45:31] superficially follow this stuff, but I am very much aware that [1:45:35] there's usually like a huge flood of shows right around now the previous few weeks because people are trying to get in under the Emmys nomination this summer and to me that's a lot of like [1:45:47] you know, maybe bigger stars doing TV who are like, if I'm doing this, I want to be up for an Emmy. Yeah. Don't put me out in August and have people try to remember me next spring. Yeah. And... [1:45:58] I don't know if there's that many shows that it came out in the last couple of weeks that I would be like, [1:46:02] This is so good. I wish it had a better... [1:46:05] runway or had a better window but they were putting out way too much shit and [1:46:11] in like a six week period. You're right. Because they're like, we have to get this up. [1:46:15] to run an FYC campaign, to get an Emmy nomination, to satisfy... [1:46:19] the talent relations that we have and do whatever. And I do think it's like, [1:46:23] Kind of now blinding people to like be like, it just seems like five shows just pop up on Peacock every week. And I don't know what to do about that.

[1:46:30] Five shows where somebody gets kidnapped. Or just do the HBO thing. The finale, the Hacks finale. There were a ton of finales. Do the HBO thing where you have two shows on at once and you promote them and you build conversation about them and then hand the baton off to the next two shows. It just doesn't make any sense. Because when you're thinking about [1:46:49] I do think a lot about the FYC stuff. And when you think about what they're running, like task is a huge thing they're running and they didn't run that in the classic Emmys window, you know, but it is it week to week built an audience was a huge thing for them. Yeah. The one other thing with the binge that I think gets lost, [1:47:06] Because we always talk about how it's bad for us, it's bad for discussing. I also find when you binge a show, I just don't watch it as carefully. [1:47:14] No, of course not. [1:47:15] I was like, I'll bang out four episodes. Like, [1:47:18] I watched those seasons of the bear and they all just are kind of lumped together. Cause I don't feel like I watched them. [1:47:25] the way I would normally watch them if it was just spread out. Even Euphoria, which drove me crazy, [1:47:31] It was at least once a week and I actually watched it and it was something that I was concentrating on. If I was trying to binge that, I'd, [1:47:38] That would have been a nightmare. Yeah. I remember the bear thing that was, [1:47:41] jumped out at me was like that first season you're right it had almost like a stranger things kind of thing where it went from like have you seen the show the bear i remember you slacking me and you're like have you seen this bear thing and it's like no now i have watched the bear like in in five hours you know yeah and it was the second season and i think i had screeners so it wasn't like a personal thing but i remember being like

[1:48:02] Oh, man. [1:48:04] It sucks that not everyone is going to watch the Christmas dinner episode at the same time. [1:48:08] Yeah. You know, and that there's going to be prepackaged articles going out about how did the bear do that episode? And you're like, I would love for everybody to be like, oh, it's bear night. It's Wednesday night. And it's like, holy shit. Jamie Lee Curtis and John Bernthal are in this episode. Like in Bob Odenkirk. Like some of the best shows ever benefited from that more than anything. I mean, Thrones, certainly. Sopranos, which. [1:48:29] still doesn't know, but Lost. Think about Lost now would have been... [1:48:36] 10 episodes a season. It would have been a binge show. [1:48:39] It's a completely different animal. When Jack says we have to go back, [1:48:43] It just would have been trapped during the season-long binge. And everybody would have experienced it at different times. And it wouldn't have had the impact. I was thinking... [1:48:50] With The Pit, I was thinking so much about this idea of water cooler culture and water cooler conversation and the way in which shows like Lost or The Sopranos or Mad Men or whatever, to a lesser degree. That idea of the water cooler is so rare and it feels so good when everyone's watching something together, when everyone's watching Tusk. [1:49:20] text me and talk, you know, people want to text me on that night while they're watching it. They're like, holy shit, I can't believe this happened. Or like, why did Robbie do this? Or, you know, what's, who's the secret warrant on Widow's Bay? You know, and that's just, that's, [1:49:31] Better for our culture. I remember when I was working for Jimmy's show...

[1:49:35] We came in on Monday when Sopranos was running. And so all the writers, we'd all get together with Jimmy and we'd try to figure out like act one and we'd all go around the room and pitch bits. [1:49:46] And during this time, The Sopranos was one of their runs. I can't remember what season it was. [1:49:52] And we were just all around the room on the Monday. We would talk about the show for like an hour and a half. And we'd have like no bits. Everybody's like, damn it. And it was just like. [1:50:00] that's just gone in the Benchmon. I don't know. I understand there's reasons why they do it. I'm sure the numbers are just as good. I watched DTF... [1:50:09] Because I had screeners for that. [1:50:11] DTF St. Louis, I watched it the day after New Year's all at once. I watched like six episodes in one day because I was hungover and I just wanted something to watch. [1:50:20] And it hit me differently. I think if I had watched it week to week, I would have liked it more. But it was like too much all at once. And that's another issue. Some of these shows are like too dense to binge. That's a show that didn't really work for me personally, but I – [1:50:35] You respected it. I really, and also is the kind of thing... [1:50:40] that we should have more of. Now you could say DTF might've been like a good two hour movie and, or, you know, whatever. But I, I wish more shows had like the sensibility and also like the creative bravery to be like, this is not like every other show. [1:50:56] Like the sense of humor is going to be different. The performance style is going to be a little bit different. The tone is going to be different. You may or may not love it, [1:51:04] But we're going to take a risk with it. And I think that there's a lot of risk aversion in TV that you can really feel. Yeah. Every show starting with a flash forward and then a six months earlier is like, you guys don't end. It's like putting the hook at the front of your song. Yeah, you guys don't trust me to watch the TV show because you got to show me a dead body in the first five seconds. Right. I know. I know what show I'm watching. It's presumed innocent. You know, like, I assume. I've seen the movie. Yeah.

[1:51:34] that closely, then we get into that feedback loop that, you know, people have been talking about more and more recently where Netflix execs or whoever say you have to repeat things 10 times because people are second screening this. They're not paying attention. And so then the shows get worse. And so then people want to pay even less attention to them because you're like, oh, I already saw this scene. You keep repeating the same lines over and over again because you think I'm not paying attention. And so I won't pay attention. Yeah. Sadly, I was laid on the pit and we binged it. [1:52:04] I really tried to lock in, but I'm sure I missed a bunch of stuff. It would have been more fun to watch. Well, the pit is almost, I think, [1:52:10] It's an amazing week-to-week experience, but watching it in binge is almost representative of the durational quality of the day that they're having on the show. So if you watch five episodes, you really are like, holy shit, it's been five hours. Yeah, it did work, but I still feel like I missed... [1:52:28] You caught up right at the end, didn't you? I thought you caught up by the time the finale aired. I did. I caught up for you guys. Yeah. Yeah, I made it in time. [1:52:36] It was good. But I do wonder, like, [1:52:39] The seesaw of the movies versus TV. This is going to be an interesting next couple of years. If I'm a creative person... [1:52:47] Do I want to have a movie and I can get out of it? [1:52:49] I can just create something from scratch and have people see it and do well and make the next one. [1:52:54] Or do I want to [1:52:55] emulate what these other people are doing with these TV shows where it's like, I might be locked into this for five, six years of my life. [1:53:02] By the way, I'm not going to make as much money as I used to back in the day.

[1:53:05] And I actually might have more upside on the movie side. Your brain's going to shift toward the movie side. [1:53:10] making, I think. Even somebody like the guy in the bear, [1:53:13] Right. Jeremy Allen White. [1:53:15] No, the creator. Oh, the director, Chris Torrey. He's making a movie next time. Yeah. [1:53:19] The bear was amazing for him, right? It's the stepping stone for him to make movies, which is where I think – [1:53:25] That's where the real money is going to be for them. I hope so. But there's still plenty of movies that come and go and people pay no attention to them. But you can at least move on to the next thing when you're doing it. Sure. Yes. You do a show. This is... [1:53:36] You're locked down. Even these Bufori actors couldn't get out of these shows. Nate Bargazzi's movies kind of flopped. [1:53:42] If he had been locked into like, I have to do Everybody Loves Raymond for 10 years. Mr. Mom for 10 years. Although that was like kind of like. [1:53:50] Maybe that made more sense. I don't know. I mean, I, you know, the, the differences is like, yeah, Joe's right. Like there's, [1:53:55] There's going to be for every Odyssey and back rooms and obsession, there's going to be 10 movies. A bunch of me didn't know. Yeah. But then some, some of them can even do well when they end up on like the Amazon on demand. Yeah. [1:54:07] you know, the pay-per-view, the Roku. Does that even exist? I don't know. Fandango universe. It is fun. You know, I'm relatively new to living in Los Angeles, but having worked with you guys for years and years and years, and having listened to Mallory say, every screening of this is sold out, and I'm in San Francisco, I'm like, not here, man. So it is nice to be in this town where people are going to the movies all the time, and any time of day that you decide to go to a movie, there are going to be other people there. It's really cool. You're really right, though, about there's something different, like...

[1:54:36] I remember even like last year... [1:54:38] with Andor and I was like, [1:54:40] Me and the 10 people I know who are watching Andor are obsessed with this and can't believe this is happening. And then there's all these people who are like, I know I'm going to love it. I just don't have time right now. You know what I mean? It's too much because there's too much stuff and it's too much of a commitment to go into any of these shows. That was one of the things that kept me from the pit for a while. I was like, I don't know. I'm busy watching... [1:55:02] Important stuff, like terrible NBA games. Yeah. [1:55:06] But it is a commitment. And I found the same thing. [1:55:09] It would be a funny letterbox of like, did I quit this TV show? Where it's like, I lasted an episode and a half with that new show on HBO that I just kind of stopped watching. I also feel like I hear from you more often than not. [1:55:22] It was horrible. I watched all of it. Yes. When it comes to TV. Yeah, but usually that means I had it on as I was doing other stuff. [1:55:29] Beef is a good example. I saw every episode of Beef, but if you quizzed me on it, I'd probably miss half of the second season. My nanny stole my dog and turned it into a fighting pit bull. When you're watching that on Netflix, you're second screening that. Well, and that's another thing that's winning right now. It's certainly winning for Netflix is these hour and a half true crime documentaries. [1:55:53] The Crash has been, I think, number one on Netflix for like two weeks. Yeah. [1:55:58] And I feel like everybody saw it at some point, had an opinion on it. There were other documentaries about it. And from a water cooler standpoint, it feels like,

[1:56:06] True crime documentaries are hitting as hard as any TV show. It's really a strange time. Can we talk about our pals at HBO? HBO, FX, and Apple are the ones who are holding it down on the week-to-week releases, despite the bear. And Hulu is doing the release, too, and then you have to... Right, the half-binge sort of thing. HBO this year had Night of the Seven Kingdoms, which was great, but that's their IP. [1:56:31] Euphoria is their AP to a certain degree, right? DTF, which you liked. I liked, but that was... [1:56:40] My dad would not have made it 10 minutes on that show. That show had a distinct audience. And I'm not sure Middle America... [1:56:48] It's an interesting one. Ironically, because it was set in the middle of America. Right. [1:56:52] House of Dragons, Lanterns, and then Harry Potter at the end of the year. Yeah. You know, off the back of them doing, like, Welcome to Dairy and Dune. So them investing in these, like, IP shows. Yeah. It seems like they're kind of going a little bit more either big blockbuster stuff, [1:57:08] or getting into the pitification of other genres. And I'm in, I'm here for the pitification of other genres, but like, and the pit obviously, but like, [1:57:18] I'm curious, where's this year's task? To me, it's just like, as long as those guys still make industry or something like it, as long as there's a show that comes out of nowhere and just kind of feels like lightning in a bottle, and it feels different. Industry was great. Industry was great. [1:57:36] She was fantastic. And that's the kind of thing that you really, really need to keep TV feel...

[1:57:41] alive. What's the show you're looking forward to the most? [1:57:44] Toss the dragon because I get to cover it with Chris. [1:57:48] Actually, the real answer is the Vampire Lestat on AMC. That's just my own personal. That's where. [1:57:56] I don't know. I think lanterns. I'm really excited to see Kyle Chandler and Aaron Pierre in a show together. [1:58:03] I'm a big Kelly McDonald fan. She's in it. Excited about that. [1:58:06] If you knew a super talented 25 year old who made shit, [1:58:11] Would you tell them to go into TV or movies? [1:58:14] It depends on what kind of shit they want to make, you know? [1:58:16] If they're little Vince Gilligan, then I would say... [1:58:20] try to pitch a TV show. What would you want them to make? [1:58:23] Uh... [1:58:25] Again, it depends on the person. Yeah, it depends on the person in the story. We love TV and movies. So like, you know, I wouldn't trade a well-made movie for a shitty season of television. I wouldn't trade a well-made season of television for shitty movies. The one thing I have learned is that over the last... [1:58:40] 15 years is like, this will go in some cycle that's way faster than we understand. And whether or not like, [1:58:47] The kind of TV that we're watching in three or four years feels way more like the kind of TV we were watching in the early 2000s. [1:58:54] I think that's possible. I think people could [1:58:56] start being like, there were certain things that people expected. There's a reason why [1:59:00] These kids are watching 300 episodes of Gilmore Girls and not... [1:59:04] this other show that kind of feels like Gilmore Girls, but isn't as well made. Like, how do we go back to that? But the economics have to work. That did happen by the way. Yeah. Grey's Anatomy and Gilmore Girls for whatever reason, the office, you know, I think the 90s stuff is starting to die. According to my daughter.

[1:59:22] Well, because we're in the different nostalgia cycle. It's too far now. The nostalgia cycle is now the 2000s. It's now into the aughts, yeah. What's really interesting is that Lost hasn't had its real moment again yet. [1:59:32] I keep waiting for it to happen. It had a mini peak during the pandemic, I would say. [1:59:38] But... [1:59:40] I mean, because everyone was at home watching everything. But yeah, it's not in that nostalgia cycle yet. [1:59:47] you know because in the 90s we were usually 20 years is the nostalgia cycle so which is right now 2030 like i was talking to yassi about 80s movie soundtracks that's just going to be doing on bands plane we were talking about the big chill we were talking another time i didn't get the call from yassi and we were talking about she won't take that personally intimidated by now we were talking about big chill we were talking about dirty dancing and that like 50s nostalgia that infused the 80s you know and how like [2:00:12] All we listened to in my house was 50s music in the 80s. Yeah, the 90s, it was the 70s. Yeah. You know, like, well, the 70s was amazing because, like, Happy Days, people going backwards. Yeah, yeah. [2:00:23] basically pre-Vietnam War. [2:00:24] What did we just talk about that with? What movie was it? We talked about it with, yeah, we brought it up with something. [2:00:30] Animal House. [2:00:32] Right. Yeah. Oh, because Animal House was set in 1962. Yeah. Um, [2:00:37] But it's so weird that that never really happened for... [2:00:41] The 90s. [2:00:43] Oh, it did. I feel like Nostalgia has been a real... We never had our happy days set in Seattle in 1992. I mean, everything from the Love Story show to the way that...

[2:00:58] jean cuts came back the way like the 90s is the closest that we had also there's like i can name a hundred bands that sound basically like yeah obscure bands from the 90s but are now like much bigger it's it's crazy i was in i was in new york a couple years ago and a friend of mine said she's like oh 90s fashion is back i was like yeah kind of and then four girls walked past us like teenage girls dressed exactly like they walked out of my so-called life like exactly just like the flannels [2:01:28] She thought Love Story just fucking nailed it. She's like, all this stuff you could wear now. She was all excited about it. Love Story is a good success story. True. I wonder if we're going to get more of those too, like the real life stuff with the twist. [2:01:40] We watched, when my daughter was home, we watched the entire OJ show that they did 10 years ago. That OJ show was fantastic. Brian Murphy OJ show? Oh, it was great. I forgot how awesome the actors were. The same people on Love Story. Paulson's out of control. Courtney Vance is out of control. Sterling K. Brown. Sterling Brown. [2:02:00] um Travolta's Travolta-ing Travolta's Travolta Cuba Gooding is really good yeah [2:02:05] I emailed Rob Mills. Swimmer. I texted Rob Mills at Hulu, and I was like, you guys – [2:02:11] It's almost OJ time. It's June 12th. [2:02:15] you guys should put this on the main page because my daughter didn't know anything. Can they put it on the main page with it's almost all OJ time? It's OJ time. My daughter didn't know anything and she couldn't believe it. She didn't know the car chase happened.

[2:02:31] And he's and she's like, I remember that happening when it came out and we were covering. Yeah. And I was just like, you had to write explainer posts. You know, this is like what happened with the crown, where it's just sort of like the Diana season of the crown. Don't spoil the crown. Don't spoil the OJ show. Don't spoil what whether the plane crashes and love story. That's another thing that's going on now is we have so much good content from the last 25 years that you can just repurpose the content, pretend it's new. [2:02:57] And somebody like my daughter would have no idea. What's the true crime story that you would want to tell? [2:03:02] In a love story. It happened. Yeah. [2:03:05] You know what? Kunan and Doc was pretty good. It was too long. Or the show was too long. Versace. But that was the Versace one I thought was good. It was just like too many episodes. I don't know, man. The further we get away from that Thrones, Breaking Bad thing, [2:03:19] Um, [2:03:20] What else was in that? [2:03:22] Mad Men. Mad Men. What was there? There was a fourth one. Sopranos. [2:03:26] That was 2000s. [2:03:29] We had that run when we were at Grantland where we just had all those shows at the same time. You could go down the list. Americans, Justify. Yeah, I mean, there was tons and tons of stuff. [2:03:40] Hope it comes back. Joanna Robinson, thanks. Chris Ryan, thanks. Thanks for having me. Thanks, man. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Doc Rivers. Thanks to Chris Ryan and Joanna Robinson. Thanks to Eduardo and Chris and Jack Wilson and everybody on the Spotify and Ringer side. I'm not sure if I'm going to be back on this feed this week, but you know where I'm going to be. We have a Rewatchables mailbag that's coming on Thursday, so stay tuned for that. It is in the bag. That is coming.

[2:04:10] Because we are doing From Hell Month. And the first one's going to be on Monday. No, Single White Female on Monday. Then Hand That Rocks the Cradle the next week. And then The Good Son. All those movies are on Netflix if you want to watch those. So I will see you again on this feed. Maybe Sunday night. Maybe earlier. I don't know. But I'll see you soon. [2:04:40] I'm feeling with them. [2:04:46] We saw. [2:04:48] So I. [2:04:49] Thank you. [2:04:51] 21 plus in present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. First online real money wager on the minimum $5 wage required for seven consecutive days. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus fetch would expire seven days after receipt. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBL or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted government id] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. [2:05:21] gamblinghelpline ma.org or call [redacted phone] for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana. Call [redacted phone]. [2:05:37] Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline is a bottom line. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money side to every story. And when you see the money side, you understand what others miss. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now at Bloomberg.com.