The Bam Backlash, Kawhi’s Heater, East vs. West, and SGA vs. Jokic, With Tim Legler

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[01:37] Tate Frazier, Kyle Mann, right off the brackets. They're going to tell us everything we want to look for for March Madness. I'll do some NBA too. So that's going to be probably four o'clock. [01:46] p.m. [01:48] Pacific time. [01:49] on Sunday. And then after I do that, [01:51] A couple of hours later, big picture, Sean Fenton and Amanda Dobbins reacting to [01:56] All the Oscar stuff. It's looking... [01:59] We talked about it with Sean on Tuesday. It's looking... [02:02] I'm pretty good for my guy, MBJ. This is unbelievable. [02:06] Been with him on the ground floor, The Wire, Friday Night Lights. Had him on my podcast in 2012 or 13, whenever he did Fruitvale. [02:16] Got to meet him then. He came on a couple times on the BS pod and always rooting for that dude. So man, it would be amazing if he won best actor. And who knows, maybe Sinners could upset one battle. It's going to be quite an Oscars. [02:31] So we'll be live with the big picture. [02:33] Right afterwards, they did their preview podcast today. We have some good stuff on the ringer.com as well. By the way, on the ringer, we did a giant oral history show. [02:43] of the Sloan Conference last week, which was the 20-year anniversary. I thought it was a really entertaining piece. And then we did a video thing too. I was in it. A bunch of people are in it. But if you care about the last 20 years of advanced metrics and Sloan Conference, all that stuff, we got Daryl Morris in it. [03:02] Um, [03:03] Check it out because I thought it was really good. We've been doing some good stuff there lately. Coming up on this podcast. So I was going to tape something, record. I always say tape, it's record. I was going to record something.

[03:15] After the two games tonight at the top here, because it was OKC Boston, San Antonio, Denver, but [03:22] Tatum's not playing for Boston. Webby's not playing for San Antonio. So we're just going to go with Tim Legler here. [03:29] I hadn't caught up with legs in a couple of weeks. We had to talk about West versus East. [03:34] BAM's 83-point game, the Celtics, how they're looking, and then we talked about Kawhi and the Clippers and just Kawhi in general, what's going on with him and a bunch of other NBA stuff. [03:46] So this is an all NBA podcast. Very excited about it. We're gonna take a break. [03:50] Pearl Jam. [03:51] And then our guy, Legs. [03:54] This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by Sam's Club. It is that time of the year when you just got to get in your car and go somewhere. I've done that plenty of times in my life. Nowhere gets you ready to go quite like Sam's Club. [04:05] Snacks, the gear. [04:07] Super low prices on gas. They got a bunch of stuff that keep you and the whole crew rolling. [04:12] And here's what you got to do. You got to join the club of yes and. [04:16] at samsclub.com slash yes and yes. [04:20] You must be 18 years or older to purchase membership, and membership is subject to qualifications. Visit samsclub.com. [04:27] slash yes end. [04:29] for details.

[04:55] All right, we're recording this before the Thursday night games. [05:00] time. Tim Legler is here. You heard him last night [05:05] doing a Houston Denver blowout and there's a lot of stuff to talk about for us. [05:09] I'm going to start here, though. Oh, yeah. [05:11] So we catch up like every three, four weeks or so. We try to do like a big theme at the top. [05:16] John Schumann, who I think has an invaluable NBA.com experience. [05:20] Monday column, write some other stuff. You did a piece today about the East versus the West. [05:24] wondering if the East has caught up to the West. And he wrote that the West has been the dominant conference, basically for the last 27 years, [05:32] East has only had a winning record the last three times. [05:35] Then you think about [05:37] 16 of the last 25 titles West. [05:40] And that's not counting the 99 Spurs. 15 of the last 25 MVPs West. [05:45] The hot number one picks that have gone to the West. Wemby, Flagg, Zion, Anthony Davis, just in the last 15 years. [05:52] The best run teams, Golden State, Oklahoma City, San Antonio. [05:57] Maybe Boston, Miami, so three of the five in the West. And then they have most of the good players right now. [06:01] And yet the balance seems to be shifting. Are you noticing this at the games you're doing? [06:07] For sure. I think the gap has been closed. And I think I'd look at it a couple of different ways. So the first way I would try to interpret this question is let's look at the top teams. [06:17] in terms of viability and likelihood to actually win a title now, this year. So when you look at that, clearly you'd have to give an edge to the Western Conference. Top two goes to the West plus Denver. Yeah.

[06:31] I think so. I think you're right. I think the top two, I don't know any Eastern Conference team would be favored in a series against either Oklahoma City or San Antonio. I don't care who comes out of the East. They're going to be an underdog against either one of those teams. And then you've got Denver sitting there. You're right, because they got that next group of four after the top two in the West. [06:50] You got Lakers, you got Minnesota, you got Houston, you got Denver. [06:53] All of them have been inconsistent for different reasons. When I look at those four teams, the one team I look at and go, you know what? I still have a belief that this is going to be a very difficult team to play and could go on a deep run in the postseason. That's Denver of the group because I know how good they were early. It was one injury after another all season long. And now they're starting to get these guys trickling back. Christian Brown's back. Aaron Gordon. Peyton Watson is right around the corner. [07:23] Back into the mix than he was when, you know, the beginning of the season. So I look at Denver still and I go, there's still enough time with 16 games to go to get all these guys back, figure out your rotation and put together an impressive close to the season to make you think like, hey, man, Denver is very much in the mix. So you're right. Denver will be the next team. One thing with Denver right now, they have a top. [07:47] One top two, top three guy, wherever you want to put Jokic, which is one of the recipes for winning the title. You need to have one of the best guys in the league. All right. So go to the East. No doubt. [07:58] Then you look at the East, and I mean, right now, you'd look at Detroit and Boston, to me, as the top two. Then you've got the Knicks and Cavs, which would be the next two, and then you get down and start getting into teams like Toronto, Miami, Orlando, and Philly. I love that you put Boston in there. This is...

[08:11] I'm delighted. [08:13] Hey, look, man, I, I, it's crazy because, [08:17] We're doing all these marquee games. The slate that they gave us, with the group that I'm with this year, with Mike and Richard, the group that I'm with most of the time, you get that slate of games, you're so excited. I've only had [08:29] I think last night or a couple of nights ago was my second Boston game. Sunday we did a Boston Cleveland. That was my second Boston game of the year. I haven't seen him in like a couple of months. So when you're watching them on TV, [08:43] You can get a perspective, and I'm a big fan of what they're doing. It's an incredible story. And Missoula, to me, I've just been so impressed with his coaching job this year. [08:52] But when you see them in person, [08:54] Thank you. [08:55] It's a whole other level of belief in them. And what I saw on Sunday was a couple things. They're so smart. They're so sharp. They do not make mistakes with their communications defensively at all. Like when you're watching teams, and Oklahoma City team is the gold standard for that the last couple of years, Boston's on that level. They do not make mistakes on like help and recover situations where two guys are flying at a shooter or somebody fails to rotate on the baseline when it's their turn. [09:25] they just don't make those mistakes they don't run back and transition and two guys flare off to the same side of the court when there's only one player there they communicate those matchups they just they don't get burned early when you're that smart you communicate that well and then a couple metrics stand out to me turn over the ball less than any team in the league they're not hurting themselves and they protect the paint better than any team in the league when you do those two things alone you've got a great chance and now on top of it

[09:51] the way they share it, and you're getting Tatum back. I was so impressed with what I saw Sunday because, look, the Cavs treated that like a very big game because the Celtics have beaten them twice. [10:03] You could just tell by the intensity of Kenny Atkinson, like the pregame conversation we had with him. He, they, he was like, no man, we need to show up today because this is, this team's gotten us twice. We've got, [10:13] Mitchell coming back today. [10:15] Harden's playing through this. They didn't have Jared Allen, and that's a big loss. I don't want to just kind of shoo that because he's playing great. But still, Boston dismantled them. [10:25] dismantled them. [10:27] And it was so impressive, Bill, that I'm going, man, Tatum finds that little extra burst that he doesn't have and you wouldn't expect him to have right now. If he gets some of that back in time by the start of the playoffs or by the second round of the playoffs, absolutely would not be surprised if Boston wins the Eastern Conference. Now, Detroit's been the best team all year. They're not playing as well right now. [10:50] Boston has closed the gap with them. And then you have New York and Cleveland, I think, a little bit behind both of those teams in the way I view them. [10:57] So in the top seven, you could argue the top three are the West and then the next four are the East. I like all four of these teams better than anyone after the... [11:05] the three in the West. I don't trust. After the Nuggets, yeah. I don't trust. Minnesota has finally lost my trust. I was holding on. [11:12] Holding on, holding on. I've just given up after these two LA games. They're going to have to win me back. And then Lakers... [11:19] LeBron will come back and they'll go back to what they looked like when they just have not been able to figure out Luka LeBron and Reeves together. They can't do it.

[11:27] When one of them's out, it's a little better. [11:30] It's the best when it's Luke and Reeves and we all kind of see it, you know, like at some point. [11:35] Basketball doesn't lie. Like, guys play harder. [11:38] Things look smoother. The ball kind of falls into place and [11:44] I don't know. It is what it is. It's weird to think that LeBron would make a team worse. [11:50] And I'm not saying as a player he's worse or anything like that. It's just it's a weird fit. He's the odd man out. They're better with the other two guys with the ball running through those guys. [11:59] Yeah, I mean, look, it's one of those things where you're not going to say, I'm not going to say. I think it would be lunacy to sit there and say, oh, they're better without LeBron. I'm not going to say that. LeBron James is too good a player. But there is a vibe to an offense, and you can't just. [12:14] completely ignore the fact that, you know, Luka and Austraebs have played well together on the court. They've had another unit where LeBron is out there by himself without those guys with a different group of guys. And that group has played really well. So the three of them together, I mean, you just look at the numbers. It hasn't been, I think, what certainly J.J. Redick and the Lakers expected. And now LeBron's out right now. You know, he's going to be coming back and you're going to have to figure this out the best you can as you head into the postseason. I think

[12:44] in the West. So we agreed on Oklahoma City, San Antonio, and then Denver being the next team. So that leaves Houston and the Lakers and the Timberwolves. To me, all three of those teams are flawed, but they've had stretches this year of a seven to 10 game stretch where they look really good. And you're like, man, that's a lot of talent and it's coming together. And [13:06] And then they hit another one of those stretches where they have, like for Houston, they'll blow an 18-point game to lead to the Knicks in the fourth quarter. And they can't run their offense. And you're like, okay, there's their fatal flaw. And they can't shoot. You look at the Lakers, you go defensively, it's just not good enough. It's never going to be good enough. [13:23] Their offense isn't going to be so good that it overcomes it. That's like their flaw. [13:30] And then for Minnesota, it's just been, there's nights you watch them, [13:34] And you're like, wow, man, like I thought they were so much better. And then, you know, you don't watch them for a little bit and you pick them up a couple of weeks later and you watch a few games and you're like, man, I don't know. Like this team still looks like they could potentially really threaten somebody. So the problem is this. It's the same word with all of those teams. [13:51] inconsistency. And even the nuggets, you'd use the same word, it's inconsistent, but... [13:58] I think you still have faith in what their whole group looks like because you got a taste of it at the start of the year. And you saw how dominant they were before these guys started going out left and right. So I have more faith in them than those other teams. Knicks and Cavs, I kind of know exactly what they are. And look, they're teams that I don't think is going to be easy to play. But I think if they're squaring off with Detroit and Boston in the second round, I'm going to favor Detroit and Boston to win those series.

[14:28] He had Minnesota, the defense. I don't know what happened to it this year. Last night against the Clippers, I went two weeks ago in person. [14:36] And I thought they played some really good defense against the Clips, but the Clips also didn't have a point guard. Garland wasn't playing, and they really took advantage of that. [14:43] Last night Garland played... [14:45] And that Minnesota just got their ass kicked. Like they couldn't stop quiet. They're getting beat in fast breaks. You were doing the Denver game. So you didn't see it, but, uh, [14:53] They have nights where they just look like shit. And then Houston... [14:57] Last 30 games, they're 18th in net rating. [15:00] They're a terrible three-point shooting team. Like, it feels like they're giving away... They're, like, minus five to minus seven on three-point shots every night, it feels like. So they're trying to make that up. They're not the same offensive rebounding. I got to be honest, like... [15:13] You could talk me into Miami or Charlotte being as dangerous as those three teams, as that Houston, Minnesota Lakers group. Because at least with Charlotte, we have this pretty big sample size of them being dangerous. [15:25] a top five net rating team and they can shoot and they bring things to the table. [15:29] And then what's happened with Miami, you know, the team might... [15:33] They drive me nuts. I call them the zombie heat. [15:36] They just, every time you think they're dead, they climb out of their grave and they start doing this and walking around. Now they're doing it again. [15:42] You don't want to see those teams in a six. I'd rather see Minnesota than freaking Miami at this point. And I'm shocked by that. I thought Minnesota was a stealth contender. [15:52] I said, we were just sitting around the green room last night, and we had interviewed the coaches. So we got that little bit of time to kill, and you're just kind of prepping for the game. You're getting amped for the game. And I was just looking through some stuff, and so I threw a trivia question out to the room.

[16:05] I said, I got a question for you. There are five teams in the NBA right now that have winning streaks of four or greater. And now it's actually five teams with winning streaks five or greater. Yeah. Who are they? And it was like, quickly, you know, my boy Ryan Rucco rattles them off. He takes a lot of pride in these trivia questions, right? He's like, he's like, well. [16:24] Oklahoma City, San Antonio. I'm like, bang, bang. Got two right there. He's like, oh, Orlando. Orlando's hot. I'm like, yep, there you go. There's three. I said, who are the other two? It was Miami and Atlanta. So I'm going, I'm going, do you understand three of the hottest teams in the NBA right now are in the play-in territory in the Eastern Conference? [16:54] And it's unbelievably impressive. So you're right. There's a lot going on right now with that part of the Eastern Conference race. You're not getting as much of that in the West. You kind of know what those top six are going to look like. Phoenix has been an incredible story. They won three straight without Dylan Brooks, and Booker was banged up for a while. Amazingly, they actually have a shot still to be six. Right. And push one of those teams into the play-in. [17:24] stories and also impressive at the same time in the part of Phoenix. But could you imagine if you push Minnesota or the Nuggets or the Lakers into the play-in, the Phoenix Suns, especially without Dylan Brooks for a long stretch, the way he's played this year? So,

[17:38] Your point is well taken about comparing the two conferences. It's a little heavier at the very top because of what you have in the West. [17:47] But then when you start to look at the totality of then you go like three through whatever, eight. [17:53] And you look how impressive these teams have been in the Eastern Conference, man. It's no question. The gap has been significantly narrowed. Well, a couple other things with that. [18:01] So Schumann had this stat that I thought was fun. You take out the Raptors and you take the... [18:07] next one, two, three, next seven teams. [18:10] Against the top eight in the West are 45 and 44. So basically everybody but the Raptors. The Raptors are 1 and 11 against the top eight in the West. [18:18] So they dragged it down. [18:19] And the Raptors are free falling right now. And I think might get caught by a couple of teams. [18:24] So that's one thing. [18:26] The [18:26] The other thing is, [18:28] De East has had really bad luck and the West hasn't. Giannis... [18:32] And bead, [18:33] Halliburton, [18:34] Tatum, [18:36] Those are... [18:37] For the best, I don't know, 15 to 20 players in the league, all of them are gone, and the West hasn't had the same kind of... [18:43] Injury stuff. And you think like, if we had just had a completely healthy Giannis season, and we had had, I guess maybe we're never getting another Embiid season. [18:52] But Philly's had between Embiid, Maxie's now hurt, George gets suspended. They've had some bad luck. And then if Halliburton was playing, I think Indiana would be a playoff team. So I wonder, like... [19:03] With all these guys coming back next year, combined with whatever happens with the lottery, which I think that's going to be a free-for-all for those top four picks, it might actually flip next year.

[19:13] We might have OKC in San Antonio at the top. [19:16] But then I think that the bulk might be in the East. And I don't really have an explanation. Somebody was asking me about this, like, [19:23] What's the explanation for this century? Why? And I think some of it is just luck with drafts. [19:29] Um, [19:30] Some of it is some of the dumber teams, I think, were in the East. [19:34] If a team like Charlotte that's just been... [19:36] really stupid for 20 years. Sacramento can claim the West as the stupid title, but there's a lot of [19:43] teams in the East, but [19:44] I just think, and then you've had some East guys go West. [19:49] But that's what I was going to say when you talk about like the migration, right? Shaq, you know, Shaq going west. And then like, you know, even in Washington, look what we did with the Sacramento Kings and giving them Chris Webber and they had where they were contending. Right. [20:05] The best five Weber years. Well, I was looking at, if you just look at the best guys this century, [20:09] Most of them are West guys. And it's just like a fucking fluke. Curry, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, KD, Joker, Dirk, KG... [20:18] SGA, Harden, Kawhi, Kidd, Russ, Nash, CP3, Luca, AD, Clay, Dame. [20:25] It's like, I just listed 25 guys that are basically all-time West or mostly West. [20:30] And the East just doesn't have the same West. So maybe it'll click. You know, it's funny. Kawhi, Kawhi's a West guy, but the one year he went East, he just went over the title. And then he just went right back to the West. But basically, that's a West guy. And it shows you how good the West guys are because he went over there for one year and he won one. Right. And then he just went back to the Western Conference. So, yeah, there's a lot of reasons for it. There's been some of its luck with drafts in terms of where the ping pong balls bounce.

[21:00] of talent for some of the teams in the East that had top picks. I mean, Philadelphia went through it a number of times alone with what they went through to get those picks. And you got to hit on those. And they weren't able to. And even the one guy that they really hit on, Embiid, with all the injuries, he's had like half of a career of what he should have had probably. So there's a lot of reasons for it. It did create, there's no doubt, a huge separation and gap. [21:29] And you could just see it like you would just pull up at any day over the last 10 years. You just pull up the standings on every day. You start just looking at the teams and you'd be down like seven, eight, nine. And you're still looking at quality stuff in the Western Conference, right? Like good players, teams that you have to show up every night and play against to beat. And then you tail off pretty quickly in the East. [21:50] This is a little different now, what the East looks like, particularly if what we're seeing right now out of some of these lower teams, because that's what it really is, man. It's the depth of quality. That's what we're talking about. And we start to get into the Orlandos and the Miamis and the Charlottes and the Atlantis. And Atlanta, yeah. Like those teams, if those teams can pick it up. And now it's like, wow, man, you got to show up to beat these guys. [22:15] Then now the conversation really is kind of like one of those like flip a coin type situations between which conference you'd rather have. Although I still think most of, [22:24] I would say the top talent is still in the Western Conference. We start listing names. If we were going to play the franchises you would rather be for the next seven years...

[22:33] OKC and San Antonio are one, two in some order, levitating over everybody else, right? There's nobody else you would put in that class. [22:41] I don't think as when you can, all the young stars, they have two potentially generational guys as the lead. [22:49] and then picks to even get more guys. So they have to be the top. The next three I would have are probably... [22:55] Boston, Denver, Indiana in some order. [22:58] Because Indiana, if they can pull off a top four pick in this draft with Halbert and coming back and Zubats and all this stuff, and some pretty good cap management, the Celtics, all the stuff they've done, and then Denver with Jokic and Murray and... [23:13] some really great supporting guys. I think that would have to be the next three, but then... [23:19] it gets interesting because now you're talking about Charlotte, Detroit, Houston, Dallas, Georgia, [23:24] Maybe Minnesota, Cleveland, Atlanta, Lakers, something there, but [23:28] I think Charlotte and Detroit, [23:30] When you think like Detroit had, what they lose, 25 games in the world. Charlotte was a mess for 20 straight years. [23:35] And now they're at least really in the conversation now. [23:38] Houston might have blown it. You saw them last night. [23:41] And, you know, [23:42] My big question with them is I wonder if you gave them True Serum. [23:49] Would they do that KD trade over again? [23:54] Probably. I think they would. Okay. Yeah, I think they would. I think they would because I really believe they looked at themselves internally last year. And look, I know they played Golden State to a seven-game series in the first round, but they looked at themselves and said, this is just not enough.

[24:08] offensively. This is not like a modern enough offense. Now, ironically, Durant's been great for them, [24:13] but they play really slow. The Van Vliet thing hurt them a lot just in terms of leadership and organization on the floor. The way they have to start possessions and how deep into the clock they get so often in the course of a game. Now, it just so happens, they've got some great mid-range players. Shangoon operates in the mid-range. Thompson with his slashing and cutting. They're a great offensive rebounding team. This is their formula to win, but that's not a modernized offense. But it's better than it was last year because of, [24:43] the Durant factor, Reed Shepard has taken a big step forward. Like, so now they have like legitimate shooter on the floor to close games. So I do think they would do it again. [24:51] But I just think [24:53] The loss of Van Vliet and not really filling that and doing that by committee, the way that they bring the ball up the floor, the way they initiate their offense. I'm watching them last night. I've been watching them all year. But when you see it again in person, there's just things you notice a little bit more. Like when I'm looking at that end of the floor when they're on offense and like one eye is going up to that shot clock. [25:14] And now they've run some action. [25:16] And now invariably the ball gets thrown back out toward half court with like eight, seven, six. And now they're at 40 feet. And now here we go. Let's try to get something out of this at the end. Now it just so happens they've got this guy that can end possessions with great shot making. Now he didn't have it last night. Durant looked gassed to me. I mean, he played the night before. He just didn't have it last night. And they had a great defensive game plan against him. So it was an anomaly for Kevin Durant, obviously 11 points. But typically most nights he can deliver.

[25:46] that possession because Durant [25:48] hit an incredibly tough shot. It's just not a formula that's going to win enough, but it's still, I think, better offensively than what they had. So I do think they would do it again. I just, I'm looking at them, man, and I'm going, [26:01] How are they going to beat the [26:03] one of these teams they're going to have to go up against potentially in the first round i mean you could get a three six houston denver [26:10] How are they going to have enough offense in a series that got to win four times? I think they would lose to the other three teams. And I agree with where he landed because they didn't know VanVleet was going to get hurt when they made that trade. [26:25] If they knew they were going to lose Van Vliet for the year, they're not making the trade. But they didn't know that at the time. [26:31] And you know what? [26:32] Something I've been reminded of this season that I've felt strongly about my whole life, and it is not the hottest take ever. [26:38] Point guards are important. [26:40] Turns out we need him. Like you look at the Clippers – [26:44] They finally get Darius Garland in there. They haven't had a point guard all year. They had basically James Harden as the point guard for a lot of the year. They traded him for Garland as Hurt. [26:53] They're patching to get there. I went to the Minnesota game two weeks ago, and Mathurin and Kawhi are basically bringing the ball up and running the offense. Minnesota's pressing them at half court, trying to trap them. [27:03] Garland has been like a revelation for them. And I don't even think he's gotten to where he's going to get to. Like he's just coming back. He's getting his game back. [27:12] Guess what he's giving them? Fast breaks. [27:15] Alley-oops! [27:16] Ad lib points where he's driving and somebody cuts and he just fine. And you get an easy layup. Like there's all these things that come with it. And that's what I don't see from Houston this year. Like everything is like,

[27:27] We are doing this. [27:29] "Shingun, here's the ball." [27:31] figure it out you know and they don't get any fun stuff they don't really get fast breaks they don't get open threes or the threes are open they're open for a reason so i i just don't see it you know it's [27:42] They're like a low-volume three-point shooting team, which means they clearly don't make a lot either. Their percentage is not terrible. Their percentage is like top 10. But on a nightly basis, that's the thing. On a nightly basis, their deficit is like a minus. A lot of nights, the other team scored 15 more points from the three. They scored 24 more points from the three. That's tough, man. When you're talking about a lot of mid-range teams. [28:06] Free throws. [28:07] offensive glass, like that's your formula has to happen for you. You run into teams that do a good job of like keeping you to one shot for the most part. Last night, offensive rebounding was not a factor in that game. Denver did a great job. They're a good defensive rebounding team, not a great offensive rebounding team, but they can keep you to one shot. And it was not a factor in the game. Now, Durant is seeing a wall of three guys. [28:32] all night long. They were so committed to having three guys literally in front of him, walling him up. [28:39] So now he's got to give it up. And so now you're saying, OK, the only chance we have some of these role playing three point shooters, let's start with Reed Shepard, who's had a very good year for them and shooting the ball just under 40 percent going into the game. I don't know what he ended up, but at one point it was like one for eight from the three. Yeah. And they were really good looks like those are possessions when the teams are committing that much to Durant or Shingun.

[29:09] how much better they are when he has those nights. So there is a formula against them. [29:14] that you can force certain guys to be open. [29:18] And you've got a great chance to beat them. [29:20] Who's the best point guard you ever played with? [29:22] Well, I was a very, very brief time I was in Utah, but so I'd go John Stockton. [29:28] um and i just missed jason kidd in dallas by a year he came in the year after i left rod strickland was a great player and a great talent um played with him in washington i played with tim hardaway in golden state you know and and he was yeah he was a great player i played with him spreewell chris mullen i mean we took a lot of talent on that team um so i played with some great ones i put all of those guys in that category did you ever play with did you ever play with somebody who you were like [29:54] Wow, this is fucking easy. They're cutting my food for me. I'm just, all I have to do is just stick the fork down and eat it. Like one of those type of point guards, like the Nash types. [30:03] You know, honestly, I'm going to give you a name of an underrated, and I should have mentioned him with this other group. [30:08] He had a very bizarre injury. [30:12] that curtailed his career at exactly the time he was skyrocketing. And for me, [30:18] as a guy to eat, [30:20] This was the guy that fed me more than anything else with what he created. It was Robert Pack. [30:24] Wow, Robert Pack. Interesting. [30:27] Remember Robert Pack? Yeah, of course. They came to Washington. [30:32] He was in the top two, I think, maybe two or three in the league in assists about midseason. Fast as shit. Fast as shit. So fast. Like a brick shithouse. Yeah. And he was turning the corner and putting so much pressure in early offense. And I love to run. I would run to those trail wing threes after he did all the work. So we had a great thing going. Yeah.

[30:55] Most people don't know this. Like Robert Pack at that time was in his late 20s, 27, 28, I'd be my guess. He's having the career year. [31:04] He's going to probably make the all-star team. And in Washington, we're in Cleveland. It's an off day. We have practice. And this has been like an off day on the road in that era. You're taping and scrimmaging. You're not walking through stuff. So we're scrimmaging, but we had a lot of guys banged up. [31:21] So we only had nine. So we get an assistant coach, Derek Smith, jumps in practice. We're running some scrimmaging. And Derek Smith sets a screen on Robert Pack. And basically his knee went right into the side of Robert Pack's knee. And it wasn't a knee injury, but it was a nerve injury. He went down in a heap. [31:41] He basically went back to the room. He iced. And basically by the next day, he could not walk. He couldn't feel his foot. [31:48] so he basically missed the rest of the year [31:52] And it actually curtailed his entire career. [31:57] He ended up playing with some other teams over the next few years. And I think he might've ended up with the nets on a, for a brief run. And it was just like, he couldn't really do any of the things he did before. And it was from that injury. But I, I, [32:10] From all the guys I played with that just made it easier for me personally, Robert Pack might be right up there with any of those guys. [32:18] - Well maybe a weirdo on the internet will make a nice mixtape of Robert Pack feeding you and you hitting open trees. - Man, he was so good. That'd be great on YouTube. - He was so good, man. And he also had this great energy about him. He walked in, he always had a smile on his face.

[32:32] He was one of those guys that was levity in the locker room, more than heaviness. [32:37] moodiness or whatever, you know, inconsistent personality types like that. Those guys are tough. He was not like that. He loved to play basketball. And he was he was a master talent. So anybody out there, if you're younger and you're listening to this and you're like, Robert Pack, go ahead. Pull up a YouTube video of Robert, Robert Pack at his best. Just be amazed what that guy could do. All right. We're going to take a break. Come back and talk about BAM. [32:59] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Your Friday night's just got a lot of louder because... [33:04] NBA happy hour is happening on Fando every Friday. [33:07] From 6 to 7.30 p.m. Eastern, Fando's got limited time specials to pregame the weekend. [33:13] Peace. [33:14] Bonuses, surprises, all live in the app. [33:18] I'm really focused on the Clippers... [33:21] Chicago game because I think it's probably going to be a little high scoring. I think the Clippers are going to win. [33:26] Um, and I think it'll be a fun game. So I'd probably lean toward like Clippers money line, some Kawhi over and then, uh, the over for the game. Anyway, that's NBA happy hour every Friday from six. [33:37] to 7.30 Eastern, only on FanDuel, official sportsbook partner of the NBA. [33:41] Visit Fando.com slash BS to get started. [33:44] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fando.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. [33:58] This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. [34:01] What makes basketball so exciting?

[34:04] all the superior skill on the court. This has been the case my whole life. [34:08] The craziest thing, I mean, Wemby, stuff he's doing every game, there's two things. [34:13] three Wemby moments a game where you're like, I don't know if I've ever seen that. [34:16] The number one thing for me is when he does the screen and roll, he's going to the basket. Somebody throws him an alley-oop, and he just catches it and dunks it without jumping. It's an alley-oop, but it's not an oop. It's just kind of an alley-oop. [34:29] And every time he does it, I'm like, I've, [34:31] Definitely 100% never seen that anymore. It's a superior play. [34:34] Superior plays aren't just for the NBA, though. Try Michelob Ultra. [34:37] the official beer partner. [34:39] of the NBA. [34:41] And, [34:42] A crisp, refreshing, superior light beer. It's the beer of Max Kellerman. He just told me that. Plus, they're giving you a chance to win courtside seats, custom merch, and more. Michelob Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at MichelobUltra.com. [34:56] slash [34:57] fourth side. [34:58] Michelob Ultra Courtside 25-26, no purchase necessary, open to U.S. Residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2025, ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods, see official rules at MichelobUltra.com slash Courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, and prizes and details. [35:17] Bam out of bio, 83 points. [35:19] More than doubles his career high, which was 41%. [35:23] In the running for a single weirdest and most unexpected NBA achievement, [35:28] of my lifetime. [35:30] I was trying to think of anything else that was this weird.

[35:34] And I think it would have to, the only thing I can think of that came close was when the Warriors went 140 and 24 back-to-back years when they won 67 and 73. [35:45] Like just... [35:45] that that happened, that we thought the 96... [35:49] 97 Bulls would be this North Star for greatness in regular season, then... [35:54] Curry and the Warriors were like, [35:56] Yeah, we're going to win 140 games in two years. Like, [35:59] That was really weird. [36:00] Thompson and George Girvin scoring the 73 and 63 in the same day. Half day of the season. No threes. That was weird. [36:08] This was fucking crazy because... [36:11] If we did a draft and we just drafted, who would score 83 points? I don't think he would have been one of the first 50 picks. [36:19] Um, [36:20] Definitely not. Definitely not. [36:22] And that's not even some sort of slight against him as a player. It's just the nature of his game. You respect the hell out of him for a lot of reasons. And in certain nights... [36:33] He can hit you with a 20 to a 30 point game. I think he had one 40 point game in his career. I believe I read the next morning. And no, that's, that's what we're saying. It's just not his, it's not the nature of his game to be a voracious shot taker. And like guy that puts up big numbers, he does a lot of other things to help you win. So you're 50 might be actually a low number. It might be, that number would be a lot higher. The number of guys that you would pick and just go, okay, you know, oh, well, Benedict [37:03] That guy could get really hot one night because he's a scorer. All he thinks about is scoring and attacking. That's not really what Bam does. So you're right. It's a really crazy thing. You could have told me Cam Thomas.

[37:17] You could have told me Pascal Siakam. That's a great one, actually. You could have told me Peyton Pritchard. I probably would have believed it more. [37:24] It did make me think because I watched the whole basically from midway through second quarter on. [37:30] It did make me think that somebody's going to get 100. I have a bunch of takeaways. My first one is 100 is going to happen. [37:37] Because he didn't even make a lot of his threes. And he missed like nine free throws. And... [37:42] There's a replica of what he did in that game that I think somebody else could do who would just hit more threes. And even like. [37:49] One of the best examples of this was the COBE... [37:52] Like a couple weeks before he had 81. [37:54] He had this game against Dallas where he basically had like 61 and three quarters. And he was like 22 for 28 and made all these free throws and, [38:02] I always felt like if he had just stayed in, he probably could have gotten a 90%. [38:06] And I wrote a magazine piece about it. [38:08] And then two weeks later, like, [38:10] Basically, stay in, go for it if you have the chance, and then two weeks later, he had the 81. [38:15] But it did. So my first question is, did this make you think 100 points is possible? [38:21] No, it didn't. And I'll tell you why. Now, so, [38:24] to even get up in this stratosphere, game can't be competitive. I think you and I would agree on that. Yeah. You can't get a guy going for 75, 80, [38:34] in a one possession game. Because if that's the case, you've got to seriously question what's going on with the defensive scheme of their opponent. So it's got to be a blowout. And I still think,

[38:49] As a coach, [38:50] I put myself in that spot. If some dude is tuning me up to that extent, [38:55] And I'm talking way before that guy gets to 65, okay? [39:01] I'm sorry, but the ball is going to be forced out of his hands. Yeah, it just is. And that's why, you know, you look at to me, the prototypical player, [39:11] That would have to be someone you look at to get it. [39:15] threes and free throws are a big part of it. [39:17] But it's also the ability to, [39:19] to create your own deep shot off the dribble. Yeah. [39:23] And that's as a part of your game, not like a situation where Bam Adebayo takes 22 threes in a game. And I don't even know what the most he'd ever taken in a game. [39:32] before that night, but that's obviously a crazy number for Bam Adebayo. No, I'm talking about guys like Luca and Anthony Edwards and these guys that take a lot of those type of shots. And you come out one night and you dip your toe in the water early, [39:46] Luca hits five or six threes in the first quarter. [39:49] which he absolutely could because I always joke that he's the one guy in the league that like the very first possession after the tip, [39:57] is [39:58] a heat check. He's the only guy that does that. Immediately, let me see how I feel tonight. If he comes out and he goes bang, bang, five, six, threes, [40:07] and he has a 25 or 30 point first quarter, you're thinking like, man, it could be on tonight. Like he might go for it. [40:14] I still think that the coach of the other team, the staff of the other team,

[40:19] Like those players are like just their pride in general. Like, no, that's, they're not going to let this happen. We are going to make sure. Now look, he might even has a 15, 20 point second quarter. And now you're at 45, 48 at halftime. I guarantee you that's going to happen at the start of the third quarter. So, you know, this was a team they ran into. [40:39] That's clearly like they're not really trying to win games right now. They're one of those teams that's trying to position themselves for a high pick. And so the competitive environment on the other side was not really there. So Bam Adebayo kept doing it. [40:53] And I kept waiting for it to kick in. And they finally tried really late, way too late, to try to stop them from getting 81. But it was too late by that point. Most of the teams are not going to allow a guy to get up in 45, 50 points at halftime. [41:09] without some massive adjustment to start the second half. And now they're just going to have to work way too hard [41:15] to get themselves to 75, 80 by the end of the third, to give themselves a chance at 100. So I still don't think 100 is going to fall. [41:24] Luka was the guy I thought of that could do it. There's no doubt. Same thing. You watch Luka the first three minutes of a game and he... [41:31] And he does kind of... [41:33] do this to see if he has it. You know? I went to a game... Well, that's the thing. The other thing it has to have is mentality. So we talk about, like, you have to talk about, you know, the three-point shooting free throws, obviously just talent overall to get your own shot, but [41:46] Also the mentality, it's almost like what I would call a lack of self-consciousness about I'm shooting too much. You know what I mean? So you have to have that too. And if you get it going, to keep going and have teammates that want, hey, man, it's pretty cool. Let's see if we can do something for him. And I still think defense is...

[42:06] would not allow it to happen by what they could employ against you just to make sure, even if you did give up on winning the game. [42:12] We're not going to let this dude, no one's going to do this to our team tonight mentality. That's why I think it would be hard for anybody to get to that level. So I didn't think really we'd see an 80-point game. Well, that's why Bam couldn't make those. Once they really started guarding him on the threes, he's just not that kind of shooter. [42:29] I think for somebody to do it, [42:31] I think you'd have to hit 15 threes, and you'd have to go to the line at least like 20 times, right? So you're getting like two-thirds of the points basically from threes and free throws. [42:43] So if you get to [redacted address], [42:45] Then you need to make 17 twos to get there, which is crazy. But if you're... [42:50] I went back and I read the column I wrote after Kobe hit 81 because I watched the game. I had somebody call me and I was watching basically... [43:01] Maybe the last half of it. [43:03] And I watched every, by the way, I watched every play of that game. I just happened to be at home. [43:08] scrolling around and there was no reason to be invested in that game. Yeah, it was just a league pass game. I'm just like, oh, Lakers. I like watching Kobe. I'll watch the game. So I actually happened to watch that game live as it was playing out. This one with Bam, I was like, [43:24] I was actually in Denver. [43:26] I was eating dinner at the hotel, sitting at the bar, had a bunch of stuff. I was kind of working, preparing for the game, watching. I kept thinking, what was the other game that was on? It was a doubleheader that night on one of the networks. Celtics Spurs. Celtics Spurs.

[43:39] Yeah, yeah, that's right. It was Boston-San Antonio. So I was watching that game, and all of a sudden, you're getting these text messages coming in. So now I kind of put my phone up, propped up, my iPad's on this side, and I'm looking one eye on it, and then basically from the middle of the third quarter on, I kind of just went all in on the Heat game. I just watched the rest of it. Yeah. Well, [43:57] It was funny hearing people talk about the Kobe game because – [44:00] And I spelled this out in the piece I wrote. You know, that team was built for him to be selfish that year. [44:06] And he kind of embraced that too, but they owed him was the only other good offensive player in the team. [44:12] And at some point they realized, Kobe, go nuts, be a ball hog. Like I was comparing him to the guy in Teen Wolf, just like having the ball, stealing it from his own teammates, like joking about like, this is our whole offense is this guy, right? And he would take 28, 29 shots a game and 12 free throws, and that's. [44:31] They decided this is our best chance to win and he embraced it. [44:34] And there was something... [44:36] I wrote the phrase inherently selfish, but... [44:40] Because like in the 81 point game, he had two assists, right? [44:43] He's just out there. He's doing his thing. [44:45] But it was also riveting to watch because it's like, [44:48] This guy's basically, this is like watching a video game. [44:52] And Toronto was trying to do some stuff and send multiple guys. And he was just solving everything and just... [44:59] killing him like he had done to Dallas a couple weeks before. The hullabaloo after, [45:04] People thought it was, you know, it was pretty split. It was very similar to the band thing. Like this isn't basketball. What is this? He chased this near the end.

[45:12] Is this a good thing? [45:14] His teammates don't even seem that happy about it. There was a lot of... [45:19] that kind of vibe, the band thing, the teammates were like delighted. Like they were celebrating like they won the title. They really wanted me to get it. And I think that's what made it so unusual. They were like, [45:30] Holy shit. Like Bams, this Bams have the night of his life. [45:34] This is the best. No doubt. [45:36] And it's, it's, that's the thing. I know there's a lot of talk the next morning. Some people really just hated what they watched and they saw it. And I, I looked at it differently completely. I looked at it like, if you're talking about a guy that garners the utmost respect from everybody on their, on, on his team and, and everybody on the coaching staff, everybody in the organization that you're happy for something like this, this, this, this crazy night to happen, it's him. And so all that support behind him. [46:06] who I've got so much respect for, and I'm going... [46:10] Okay, finds himself in this situation where I felt like he did have an obligation to the player to, [46:18] Because this is a one-off night, a historic night. This guy's got a chance to do something that's only been done a couple of times in the history of the league. He's on pace to do it. [46:31] It's almost my obligation to help him do it. I was sitting there watching Spell and I'm thinking, gosh, is he hoping that he makes all these free throws? Because imagine if what was going on. They were fouling to get the ball back and then the Wizards were fouling other players so that Bam couldn't shoot. So he goes to the line and he's got

[46:51] 81. [46:53] And he's going to the line for these two free throws. What if he missed both free throws? And you've got a minute and a half to go. And now... [47:00] Poor Eric Spolstein, like they have to keep this up now. At that point, you're all in. You're all in to try to get you past 81, I believe. So I'm still going to Spoglin. He doesn't really want to be a part of this environment. [47:13] With the weirdness of what we're doing right now, like the basketball part, but I also felt like a lot of love and admiration for his player. And he was trying to help his player have a historic night. It's just like the same thing when I say with teams, you know, the year that Golden State won 73 games. And people are talking about, well, you know, take your foot off the gas. [47:31] And I'm going, man, I don't know. There's something you can accomplish as a group. [47:36] the greatest record in history of the league, and you have a chance to do that. I almost feel like there's an obligation to do that, to put yourselves in the record books, man, for eternity. And now, look, it turns out they didn't win a championship that year, and people were pointing at that. I thought there was no correlation there. I really didn't. But it's this situation here. You have a chance. It's right in front of you. [47:55] Spolster is going to help him do that. His teammates were going to help him do it. And he was able to get it done, even though it looked a lot different. Like at the end of that game, then certainly Kobe's game. I don't know what Wilt's game looked like at the end of that game. So I don't know what that looked like. But that was a strange end of the game. A lot of people had a problem with that. It was a very controversial topic. All of these games have that, though. I remember when Larry Bird tried to score 60 against the Hawks, and they were like, [48:21] Trying to foul to get the ball back at the end. Spolstra had, I don't know if you saw it, he had a press conference saying, he's like, I apologize to no one.

[48:29] He was like, look, we had a chance to do it. That's exactly what I would expect him to say, 100%. And I love that. I do. And like I said, for me, he's one of the guys that represents the gold standard in this league for coaching. And a guy that I would pick if I had any 10 players in the world to coach, whether it was like eight-year-olds or the Olympic team or a foreign team or an NBA team. And I had one month to prepare. [48:59] respect for him. I'm glad he said that. There's one other point I want to make about this that we talk about profile of player that it would take to do something like this. There is another component. [49:08] Strength. [49:09] and stamina. Yeah, right. Because, okay, so look at the guys we're talking about. Kobe, [49:15] But now you're cool. [49:16] maniacal with his stamina and his drive. And like that was adrenaline for him, the competitive adrenaline. You have to have it. You know, you look at a guy like we talked about, Luka. [49:29] the strength to do it. Well, I'm saying the physical strength to be able to take that many shots and not get worn out. I don't think Luka would get worn out if he had one of those nights going. But the reason I bring it up is look at a couple other guys like, [49:42] That would be really tough for a guy like Curry. Right. [49:46] Okay, you'd have to make... [49:48] 20 threes and then you're still 40 points short where's that coming from okay we'll give you 10 free throws can you still go make 15 other shots with all of the running and the dribbling and like he's 640 he's kind of slightly built and like it's a lot of contact Wemby what about Wemby

[50:06] Same thing. He'd wear down. Like, that's a lot of physical toll. Like, oh, that guy is built like that. And like the amount of contact he'd be facing all night. Now, look, one thing he does have going for him, he could shoot a three whenever he wanted to, even over double teams and get it off. So if he wanted to shoot 33s in a game, he could. And no one could really stop that unless you just flat out put three guys on to try to deny him the ball. But I think that other component, that's why I got like Harden would be a good candidate. [50:36] 10, 12, 15 threes. [50:38] And he could also get to the line 15, 20 times. Yeah. And make some floaters. And he has the strength to play that way. And foul the other team out. For an entire game. He could foul out the top four segment. So a lot of people are asking me the last two days how I felt about this. Because they know I care about the history and stuff. [50:54] Um, first of all, [50:56] I love when the guys go for it because ultimately it's a stupid regular season game and... [51:01] As you said earlier, when you have a chance to make history, you should go for it. I remember Carmelo took himself out of a game when he had like 62. [51:09] It is like his peak with the Knicks. [51:11] He took himself out. I forget how many minutes there were. It was like five, six minutes left. I was like, [51:16] Dude, stay in. [51:18] This is it. This is your one chance. Every time for the rest of eternity when somebody else is [51:23] in a situation like this, they show all the names and you could be one of the names. Like that's, that's cool. Nobody will remember the circumstances. But the biggest thing to me, [51:32] And this is when people are like, well, that's bastardizing the game that they did at the end, Miami at, [51:36] Like, guess this bastard as in the game? Fucking Washington.

[51:40] These teams that tank and trade for guys that are injured, [51:46] or come up like what Utah's doing in Sacramento. Like, hey, is there a surgery you need? Because you should get the surgery now while our season's still going on. Like, we have eight teams in the league that are completely bastardizing every aspect of this season for ticket holders, you know, for competitiveness. We have games where teams win by 40, 45, 50 points. [52:08] So I'm like, guess what, Washington? [52:11] There's 30 NBA teams. [52:13] You're all professional athletes. You're all getting played. Fucking stop the guy. [52:17] Don't whine about it. The rest of the league can't be like, oh, this is better. These guys are professional athletes. You have a job. Go stop it. [52:26] He's got 70. Don't let him score anymore. Here's the other point. [52:30] Let's go back. Let's go to the start of the game. [52:33] Okay, I understand where the Wizards are at. Yeah, how does BAM have 30 and a quarter? [52:37] Bill, not only did he get 30 and a quarter... [52:41] Did you notice their starting lineup? [52:44] Oh, I noticed it. This is, and I'm not knocking these guys, but I'm just saying there was no Tyler Hero. No Tyler Hero, no Norman Powell. I'm talking about from a game plan. I understand. Even if you're not trying to win, just from a game plan, you're a professional team. It's bam out of value. [53:02] Myron Gardner, [53:04] Pelley Larson, [53:05] Davion Mitchell. [53:07] And Yaka Chonis. Yeah, maybe guard Bam. [53:10] Maybe Bam is the guy that you're looking at on the whiteboard going, you know what? We probably want to run an extra guy at Bam. Right. Because they don't have Hero and they don't have Norman Powell primarily. Um,

[53:23] They were giving them wide open threes. It's like this is the only score they have. 30 points in the first quarter. [53:28] Right. And even if even if that [53:30] That played out the way it did. [53:32] And you're going, well, who's expecting Bam to come out and shoot like that early in the game? [53:38] I got news for you, man. The huddle during the [53:40] Between the first and second quarter, [53:43] Maybe then is a good time to address this. Or – [53:47] I got an idea. How about when he's up to 55 or whatever he had at halftime? Maybe at halftime you go, you know what? I think Bam's feeling it. [53:56] Maybe we should run an extra guy at BAM. Or how about when he's at 65, approaching 70, you finally go, you know what? That's it. Line in the sand. He's not getting any more. But they did it, really. [54:08] Until... [54:09] it was obvious that he had a legitimate shot at 80 points. [54:13] Now it was like, that's when they started full court, two guys denying them. And like all this crazy stuff started playing out. But, [54:20] That should have taken place way before that. Way before that. Just from a pride standpoint, look, your team, Washington, they've got 16 wins. Do you also want your team to have that? [54:33] Seriously, you want them carrying that around too? No, these guys... [54:38] And we saw this with Philly during the process. You're just teaching. It's like, oh, this is all going to be good because when the draft comes, we're going to top four pick. Everybody you have on your team, you're just putting a stink on. And I was saying this during the process with Philly. You're teaching these guys that losing is okay. Skipping games are okay. You have a coach. I was watching Will Hardy last night. They're playing the Knicks.

[55:00] Utah's beating the Knicks in third quarter. And it's like, they're trying to lose. And it's like, oh, this will be fun. How are they going to lose? They ended up losing by 17. [55:09] The Knicks flipped the game, I think, by like 27, 28 points. And they're cutting to Will Hardy, and he's just kind of like, hmm. [55:16] It's like I don't even know if Will Hardy is a good coach. I know that if Emei had left the Celtics and Will Hardy wasn't already at Utah, Will Hardy would have been the coach because he was the number one. Right. He goes to Utah. Will Hardy can coach and he's one of the really bright. I'm just saying we haven't seen it on them because they're not letting him coach. They haven't just turned him loose and going, hey, man, every night, go try to win. [55:39] Right, but I'm confident when that opportunity comes for him, whether that's in Utah or somewhere else, whatever it is, [55:46] I hope you're right. I hope you're going to be able to prove that. Because this is three straight years of watching... [55:51] him basically call off the dogs when they have a chance to win in February, March, April. But anyway, with Washington... [55:57] When I watch these teams, I'm like, you know what? We should be trying to embarrass these teams. [56:01] It's embarrassing to watch this. It's embarrassing that they're charging full ticket prices for it. [56:06] And all of these dudes, like, I just don't understand how this helps Washington long term to just be humiliated by Bam Adebayo. And I hope it keeps happening because maybe this stuff will change. I don't know. It sounds like you and I are in agreement then. I had, I like you, it sounds like I had far more problem with what Washington was doing than with what Miami was doing. Far more problem. Yeah. Okay. Because that's how I felt. And I was actually a little bit surprised.

[56:33] at the volume out there the next day. [56:36] or even that night, but certainly the next day, this was a talking point everywhere, of how many people were so upset with what the Heat were doing. I have a much bigger problem with what the Wizards did, and I actually totally get where Eric Spolster was coming from, the organization, and this is a guy that's revered, [56:53] And he plays the right way every single night. And he had this crazy start to a game. And they decided to go for it against an opponent who, [57:01] that was going to be willing to let that happen for the most part. And everyone has... So go for it. [57:07] And everyone has amnesia with everything that's happened in the past. And anytime somebody has chased [57:13] points or any of this stuff. The game usually degenerates down the stretch like that. So let me ask you this question. And last one on this for me. So then the other thing that people were talking about was just like that full screen. [57:25] Do you have a problem now with the full screen that says, well, bam, Kobe, when you put those three numbers up there? Because I just don't understand why people are so upset about that. And there's a lot of people out there because I'm just not, man. It is what it is. [57:37] It's the nature of the game. People are going to break records. They're going to put up numbers. Like, lists change all the time. And so that was, like, felt like a lot of people, like, that was their problem. Because it was Kobe Bryant. No, the Kobe thing, like, and he was a big Kobe fan. I actually was wondering if he got 81 and he was going to leave. [57:59] And be like, I'm going to share 81 with Kobe. But he was like, nope, breaking it.

[58:03] for the full screen thing [58:06] I like it because years from now, every time we'll see, we'll be like, oh my God, remember when Bam out of bio, 83 points? I think it's going to be a fun wrinkle. And by the way, this is what makes basketball great. We have these seasons that are too long. Weird shit happens during the season. Scott Skyle said 30 assists once. [58:25] I was in that game. Bill Russell had 55 rebounds in a playoff game. [58:32] Right? [58:32] I forget, George McGinnis had 420 turnovers in a season. There are these great weird numbers. That's part of what makes basketball great. Hey, I called... [58:43] I called the NBA's only 30-20-20 game in history last year. I was on the call for that Jokic game. Now that was a good one. 30-20-20. I never thought I'd ever see. I was just honored when the game ended that I was a part of that to watch. I never thought that was possible for a player to do that. That's the high end. Well, I think the difference with Kobe versus Bam is – [59:06] It's weird to say it, but Kobe was just so good during that stretch that there was a real... [59:11] artistry to a game after game, you felt like, [59:14] Look, they're building this around him being able to maybe score 50 to 70 every night. You just don't know when it's happening. He was weirdly must-watch TV, even though the team was relatively not that happy. [59:25] I don't think Phil Jackson loved it. [59:27] But they won 46 games. [59:30] Basically with two offensive players and no bench. And it was just because of what he was doing that after I voted for him for MVP that year.

[59:37] I thought it was the best thing anyone did that year, even though I didn't really love it as a basketball fan who loves values like team basketball and shit like that. That was the year that he had that outrageous... [59:49] A super long streak of 40 point games, right? [59:52] Was that that year? No, that was earlier. This was the year he averaged 35 a game. [59:57] this year. So I don't know. I thought it was fun and it mixed up the season. It was fun to watch people get so bad about it. Get bad about the tanking. [1:00:06] Get mad about teams putting out shitty lineups and not knowing how to play defense. Yeah, man. I hear you, man. There's a lot of other things you could get upset about right now as opposed to a guy having like an epic night and then maybe – not maybe, definitely sort of bending the end of that game to try to allow him to get that thing across the finish line to the number he was trying to get to, which was 82 at least. But the guys start to the game dictated – he even said it. [1:00:33] When did you start thinking about this? You could go for something like this. He goes, after the first quarter, when I had 30, I kind of was thinking I could do some special things tonight. You know the other thing? Absolutely. The Miami crowd, which... [1:00:49] I've seen good versions of it, bad versions of it, especially during the regular season. [1:00:54] That crowd was delirious down the stretch. That was the most fun basketball game you could have gone to randomly. [1:01:01] There's some great deals out there in the NBA wilderness that are ripe for the taking, which we're going to be diving to in this special segment. It is called...

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[1:02:39] Did you know about one in three people with plaque psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? [1:02:49] Does this sound like you? [1:02:51] Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. [1:03:21] Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. [1:03:27] Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. [1:03:39] This episode is brought to you by Boris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boris Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [1:03:53] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [1:03:57] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [1:04:00] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boreshead, committed to craft since 1905. [1:04:08] I want to talk about Kawhi Leonard quick. I have a couple other things for you. Kawhi Leonard, they're 29 and 22 when he plays. He's averaging 31 a game in those wins.

[1:04:18] The Clippers are 27-11 in their last 38. [1:04:21] During that stretch, he's 30 a game, basically, and almost a 50, 40, 90 guy. [1:04:27] And, [1:04:29] He was so good last night against Minnesota. You missed it because you were doing the other game. He just like killed Minnesota. [1:04:34] I actually think this is the best team I've ever seen him play. [1:04:38] So I was like, man, this is a little unusual. He's 34 years. [1:04:41] He has all these... [1:04:43] dangerous stuff like [1:04:45] - I wonder how many times somebody has averaged 28 a game, who's been 34 years or older. [1:04:51] How many guys do you think have done this? [1:04:53] Be a digas. [1:04:55] 34 or older, average. 34 years old or older, 28 a game. [1:05:01] Man. [1:05:02] You think there would be a few guys, right? I'm going to say five or less. Okay. [1:05:09] Michael Jordan once. [1:05:11] Bernard King. Did you play with Bernard that year? 91 Wizards? 91 Bullets? No. [1:05:16] Steph Curry in 2023. LeBron twice. [1:05:21] and Kevin Durant. [1:05:22] And all of those guys did it at 34, except for LeBron, the two years, 37 and 38. [1:05:29] And it was like, [1:05:30] wow, this is more unusual than I expected. And this is why I think when we talk about titles and, [1:05:37] age, I don't think we do a good enough job with it. [1:05:40] Because the league just favors young people, especially in April, May, June, right? [1:05:45] You're just better off having Shea at age 26, 27 than you are having Kevin Durant at age 37.

[1:05:52] You're better off having... [1:05:53] Jamal Murray in his mid-20s than you are having Steph Curry in his mid-30s once we get to a certain level. [1:05:59] But the Kawhi leg, first of all, I never thought he'd be in this position where it just seemed like he was going to be hurt, not hurt, just back and forth the rest of his career. [1:06:07] But then being at this level, almost being a 50-40-90 guy for two-thirds of the season, [1:06:13] I think it's amazing stuff. He single-handedly saved their season. [1:06:16] He is an absolute... [1:06:19] machine. He is as machine-like [1:06:23] On the nights he's playing well, as any player I've ever seen. It's so automatic. There's like zero margin for error on his jump shot because it gets no higher than eight inches above the rim. It's like straight. And it goes straight and it hits the inside back rim. [1:06:39] And go straight down. Like, he's one of those guys that like, and I used to try to do this when I would like give like a shooting talk or something where like, I'd always make a joke. Like I trained the ball to come back to me. Yeah. Because you're shooting it perfectly. That's what it does. It goes in, hits the rim. And with that English, comes right back to react. Like he does it in games. [1:06:59] with two dudes trying to stop him. And it's like so automatic when he gets on these rolls. And I love the fact that Anthony Edwards said what he said about him after the game. [1:07:09] Because, you know, he's an older player. It's been a while since, like, Kawhi, like, you know, won that championship in Toronto. Anthony Edwards is still so young, trying to figure his way. He gave him so much respect after the game and said, man, if this dude did not get hurt, had the injuries he's had, you're talking about one of the all-time great players in the history of this league. And he was talking about from his experience playing against the guy at this advanced stage after all the injuries.

[1:07:39] guy is to guard, how hard he is to stop, his strength, his balance. It's too much. [1:07:46] The way he dominates in a 15 to 18 feet, man, all night long, like that's his wheelhouse. And then he added a three point shot later in his career. But imagine, Bill, imagine what this guy's career would look like. [1:07:58] If he didn't lose basically, what is it, about five full seasons to injuries? Right. [1:08:03] Zach and I did a deep dive on him a couple weeks ago on my Sunday pod and he's... [1:08:09] There's also the weird part where the first four years of his career have no parallel to what happened next, where he's basically like 12 points a game score. He's like a three and D guy. [1:08:20] And then all of a sudden... [1:08:21] Now it's 2026, and he's got as much of a bag... [1:08:27] as any forward in the league, right? He's scoring all these different ways. [1:08:32] if you're just talking about pure talent, [1:08:35] and LeBron is that, if you're talking pure talent forwards this century, LeBron's first, [1:08:40] It's probably him versus KD for that second forward spot. [1:08:45] Right? [1:08:46] Pure talent-wise, if it's like I could have the peak version of either of these guys for one season, who would you want? It's a pretty good argument. [1:08:54] Oh, yeah, no. You might want to... [1:08:56] That might be 55-45 toward Kauai that I would lean. [1:09:01] Kawhi would get a lot of, and I'm glad you kind of injected him into that conversation with those guys, because most people would think that's beyond the realm, but it's not, man. Kawhi Leonard is that good.

[1:09:10] He deserves to be in conversations like that. He's doing it again this year. And that team has been really interesting. And they went through the Harden thing. Nora Powell left and Harden comes in and Harden's gone. And they go out and they get Garland. It's a really nice pickup. And then Matherin has been great for them. Matherin has given them kind of exactly what Matherin was at his best. [1:09:30] For Indiana, but they weren't all that frequent those nights. So if they want to get into a best of seven, and man, wouldn't that be interesting? If you get Kawhi Leonard and these Clippers in a best of seven as a six seed or something. Or a seven or eight seed, whatever. Like, imagine playing them with Kawhi Leonard. [1:09:46] The seventh seed, who would they be playing as the two seed? [1:09:49] San Antonio, the team that boos him, the fans that boo him every time he gets the ball now, eight years later. [1:09:56] They boo him every time he gets the ball. I think that series would be awesome. I, uh, [1:10:01] First of all, they were six and 21. It's nuts that they're even in the conversation. [1:10:06] This is even more nuts because I have the Clippers tickets. I have some Clipper fans in my life. [1:10:11] And everybody's like, man, if we had Niederhauser... [1:10:15] we'd be able to potentially pull a 2-7 upset. This kid Niederhauser out of nowhere became important. They're one big short. [1:10:22] They're like 15 minutes of a big guy... [1:10:25] They're relying on Brooke Lopez, who's old, way too much. [1:10:30] And they can go small ball. John Collins is out now. He's coming back. [1:10:34] But, [1:10:34] Matherin gave them something that, a phrase that you could not say on your ESPN broadcast, but I can say here on a podcast. He gave them some fuck you.

[1:10:44] He's got some fuck you energy. [1:10:47] That combined, Chris Dunn has that too. John Collins weirdly has that. [1:10:51] This team is, and then Kawhi is like, nobody even messes with him. He's like Clint Eastwood. He's over here. This team's got, there's a feistiness to them now that I don't think they had before. [1:11:02] And in a playoff series... [1:11:04] where you just have to go four and three, [1:11:06] I don't know. I don't really necessarily want to see Kawhi. Now, he could get hurt tomorrow. Who knows? No, man. Yeah, no. Ultimately, Oklahoma City, San Antonio, and they can only get as high as seven. So they could be a seven or eight. [1:11:19] Because they're not going to be able to get into the six. So you're talking about playing your Oklahoma City or San Antonio in the first round. I'm not thinking the Clippers are going to beat either of those teams. But man, would that be compelling and interesting to watch Kawhi Leonard go up against those two teams if he's feeling healthy and right. Because even last year against Denver, he put up numbers in that series. [1:11:36] And his efficiency has always been there. So just to watch him take on that challenge with a Clippers team that basically throw out, [1:11:44] the first third of the season and look at their record the rest of the way, that would be a really interesting first round series for either of those teams. [1:11:53] I want them to win the title so we can find out if Chris Paul got a ring and a playoff share or not. I think that would be a fun set.

[1:12:02] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. [1:12:31] Marvel Television's Wonder Man, an eight-episode series, now streaming on Disney+. A superhero remake, not exactly what we'd expect from an Oscar-winning director. Action! Simon Williams, audition for Wonder Man. I'm gonna need you to sign this, assuming you don't have superpowers. [1:12:50] I'll never work again if anyone found out. My lips are sealed. [1:12:55] Marvel Television's Wonder Man, all eight episodes now streaming, only on Disney+. [1:13:00] Hey, All-NBA.com. [1:13:03] Got a month left now. [1:13:05] Yep. [1:13:06] Jokic, SGA, Cade, and Wembe are going to be all NBA guys. I think those are four. [1:13:12] That fifth spot, [1:13:14] I got Kawhi. [1:13:16] I got Anthony Edwards. I got Jalen Brown. I have Luca, who's really come on, I think, the last maybe 10 days or so. [1:13:24] Um, [1:13:26] maybe even some Donovan Mitchell. Who would be your fifth guy if you're filling out a ballot right now? I'm giving you Jokic, SGA, Cade, Wemby.

[1:13:35] And by the way, you can bump Kate if you want and take two from that next group. Who would you have? [1:13:39] No, I wouldn't bump Cade. Cade's in. To me, Cade's a lock. In for me as well. [1:13:44] He's a lock. So that last spot, here's what's interesting. If you ask me this question, [1:13:51] you know, three weeks ago. [1:13:53] with still a lot of uncertainty around Tatum's return, I would have thought Jalen Brown had a great chance. And he may still... [1:14:01] but [1:14:03] As Tatum continues to get his legs and his minutes and like has more of an impact on [1:14:10] on the game and you know he's not [1:14:12] as like kind of deferential offensively as he's been, as you would expect him to be to this point. It's just a natural cannibalism. [1:14:20] of some of these big nights that Jalen Brown has had to carry that team. And it's weird because it's like right here at the end of the year, it's actually going to hurt him a little bit. He's absolutely had a season worthy of first team all NBA. There is no question about it. And if Tatum didn't come back, [1:14:37] I think there's a really good chance he gets that last spot. But now... [1:14:40] I think there's going to be, especially like, you know, imagine if they win some games now and like Tatum does like kind of find it. [1:14:47] and he's got some 25, 30-point games, it feels like it's going to hurt Jalen Brown, even though it probably shouldn't, because they wouldn't be in position to do what we said at the beginning of this broadcast, which is, hey, man, this team might be able to get to the finals if Jalen Brown didn't position them to be there with his play by the time Tatum came back. But it is going to hurt him, I think. So that's why I think a guy like Luka...

[1:15:11] If the Lakers can continue to play better and they put together a 7-8 game winning streak or something like that with his numbers and leading the league and scoring all that, Luka's got a really good chance. But I think Jalen Brown, because he plays both ends at a higher level defensively than Luka, [1:15:28] And what he did with that roster was, [1:15:31] to get them really into the second seed, really with his offense carrying him every night. He's got such a claim to it, man. But I think the Tatum thing might hurt him here down the stretch. Yeah, I had Jalen for that last spot for now, and I feel like he's going to get passed for all the reasons you said. But I also... [1:15:46] It's weird because we don't have anything to, we have to find things to talk about for six months during this season. [1:15:53] there was some advanced metrics of like, well, when he's out of the lineup, what about this? And I'm just telling you, like, first of all, they designed that bench unit to come in and be like these crazy defensive pitbulls. Right. And they're going against teams benches. And that's one of the reasons the bench stats were so good. That's why Hugo has like one of the best on off ratings in the history of the league. Um, [1:16:14] But with Jalen, I just thought the durability... [1:16:18] And the consistency of like, put it on my shoulders. I'm showing up night after night. [1:16:24] I don't think we value that. I keep saying this on my pods. I don't think we value that enough when we look at this stuff. [1:16:30] Just... [1:16:31] Knowing somebody is going to show up night after night when you don't really have a lot of guys. I don't think you can put a price on that. [1:16:38] I completely agree, man. Toughness and...

[1:16:42] like just competitive professionalism are is a skill. Yeah. And not too often we call those kinds of things intangibles. It's a skill, man. And, and, and Jalen Brown has it. And, you know, [1:16:56] I was having this conversation with somebody a couple days ago. We're like, you know, the Tatum thing. Like, you think it's any part of Jalen Brown, like... [1:17:03] A little bit just from a player that's had this kind of a year, just a little bit, not bothered. He wants to win, and Tatum gives a better chance to do it. But at the same time, I was like, man, that was really fun to show you what I came up. And I said, you know what? Actually, I don't think so. Because here's the bottom line. He rang the bell when he was given the opportunity. He basically showed everybody what his true ceiling is. [1:17:31] as like the top guy, the alpha, the top of the food chain guy on a team. He showed you what he's capable of doing. He dialed his scoring average up to basically 30 points a game with the same level defense, career highs across the board in a lot of different categories. You know, guys that were role players primarily elevated to higher roles to try to give him supplemental offense. They all did it. But if he doesn't play the way he did, they're not anywhere near the second seed. [1:18:01] My point being, some part of him probably feels incredible validation. [1:18:06] I got the opportunity. Look what I am. And so now, yeah, he's going to have to give up some of that when Tatum starts to really find his game.

[1:18:14] Ultimately, it might lead to them building in the finals and winning a championship again. So he'll take that. [1:18:20] Because I think now he proved to people, if he averaged 23 a game and shot 43% and they had eight less wins, [1:18:30] People would view him like, yeah, he's a really nice number two. What he wanted to prove to people was, no, man, this is what I can look like as a number one. And that's why I think mentally there's got to be a security about Tatum coming back because of what he was able to do while he was out and the validation that he was able to muster. [1:18:49] I'm glad you put it that way. I obviously agree. [1:18:52] He proved that. [1:18:54] Whatever the one thing that he probably felt like he had to prove to everybody over the course of his career was I actually did sacrifice the last few years. I didn't get enough credit for it. Right. [1:19:03] I just showed you what I can do if I'm the number one guy. [1:19:06] I think what really struck me these last six, seven days is how happy everybody, including Jalen, was for Tatum. [1:19:14] Because this wasn't one of the, you know, and obviously that's, [1:19:18] Goes without saying to some degree, but he was with the team all the time. [1:19:22] Sometimes when you'd have Kawhi and some of these other guys, when they're rehabbing, they're just gone, right? Nobody even sees them and they're not really around or they want to rehab on their own and they'll pop in and out. [1:19:34] Tatum went on every road trip, [1:19:36] He was on the bench rooting for everybody and just stayed part of the team. And they knew how much time he had put in. [1:19:44] to get back to where he got back. And I think Jalen, it probably brought those guys closer, would be my guess. Like Jalen held the forefair, now they're back. You did that Cleveland game on Sunday.

[1:19:55] watching them kind of still trying to figure out how to integrate Tatum back in. [1:19:59] And Jalen had that incredible third quarter. [1:20:02] When it was like, okay, I'm going to take over for these five minutes here. And he's just going to be better at that now because he has the reps. So I think ultimately it was great for both of them. [1:20:13] And look, there's a great, I mean, there's a great, great. [1:20:16] cast to choose from for first team all league. And I mean, all the guys you listed, man, they can make a claim. I think the guy that's got the greatest argument of that group is Jalen Brown. Based on [1:20:32] based on what they were missing. And it wasn't just Tatum. It's like they reinvented their team to a certain extent. Right. To hold the court. Right. [1:20:40] And just not not just like keep us floating at 500 and hope that Tatum can help us as a six seed run through the Eastern Conference. Man, they position themselves to play. [1:20:53] Two home... [1:20:55] rounds in the postseason as tatum starts around into form and that's because of what jalen brown was able to do offensively so i have so much respect for the guy anyway but like i i just have a new uh completely um newfound respect for like what this guy ultimately represents every night because i've always loved his competitiveness how hard he defends the challenge he takes it seriously every night just they don't shy away from putting him on top guys they don't worry

[1:21:25] And now the question was, [1:21:27] Can he dial it up? [1:21:29] to like 30 because that's a totally different level of responsibility every night in this league. And he did it. Well, it's a little easier for him now, too, because the Tatum gravity that can pull. Gravity is the new word of the year this year. But it's just a little different when you have Tatum on that side, able to punish smaller guys. I felt bad for Jalen on Tuesday night because... [1:21:51] I watched the entire Celtics season. Jalen had it going in that Spurs game. [1:21:56] And, you know, [1:21:57] Got kicked out. [1:21:58] Really, as usual, wasn't getting calls, got shoved out of bounds. [1:22:02] Got mad, got thrown out by the ref who didn't even make the call. And the shame of it was, like you talk about missed opportunities with the league this year. That had a chance to be one of the best games of the season. [1:22:12] The Celtics are like, they're arresting Tatum in the OKC game. They're ready to throw haymakers at the Spurs. Wemby... [1:22:20] Their strategy was let Wembe shoot threes, which he made over and over again. But it was really competitive, feisty. You had the Harper brothers both in there. [1:22:27] And Jalen was great. And I think he had seven assists when he got kicked out. But I felt like that was going to be a real statement game for him. [1:22:35] And, uh, and the rug got pulled out, unfortunately. So. [1:22:38] I felt bad for him too. And I talked about it a lot yesterday, you know, how that all played out. And it was just so unfortunate because of what that game represented. I mean, potentially, I mean, you know, I think if I had to lay money on it today, I would say Oklahoma City gets to the finals. But we just talked about San Antonio's chances. They're right there. So potentially, that's an NBA finals preview, potentially. And you got Tatum back for the game. Spurs have been incredible. Like, let's go, man. And it was a close game.

[1:23:08] You got everything you could ask for. You're winding down toward halftime. And then that happens. [1:23:13] And it just changed the entire second half of the game. It's just terrible. It's just from a... [1:23:19] Just a pure... [1:23:20] viewership standpoint and like fans wanting to watch the, [1:23:24] Two. [1:23:25] Great teams that you have so much respect for their way they play too. And like everybody's there too. Like we got every, all the major components are played, man, this is going to be great. And it was living up to it to that point in the game. And then boom, [1:23:39] That happens. I felt bad for him too. Maybe we'll get again. We don't need to talk about San Antonio ceiling because people see what it is now. [1:23:45] I asked Zach on... [1:23:47] We're trying to figure out on Sunday who Harper... [1:23:51] Who I just infatuated by, but this weird game he has where... [1:23:56] how he uses his body and the post-ups and the slithery stuff on the baseline. I was like, what guard was like this? And the only guy I could really think of was Jason Kidd. [1:24:05] how he would [1:24:06] do some weird back to the basket and mismatch stuff and was physical and, [1:24:11] Harper, five years from now, is going to be 15 pounds heavier. [1:24:15] He has this footwork, Slither stuff already, but he's also going to be bigger and more physical. And I just... [1:24:21] I don't remember a guard quite like him. Plus he's left-handed on top of everything else. Do you remember anybody that reminded you of him? [1:24:28] No, I like the comparison of kid with the only exception being this. Because I like that when you talk about the physicality of their game, the strength of their game. [1:24:37] like the way that they could like manipulate, read leverage. Like when they get, they get a guy on their back, they can read leverage and know which way to spin. And they never make mistakes. Every time the guy leaves one way, they're going the other direction.

[1:24:48] The only difference is like kid was doing a lot of that two steps ahead mentally, knowing he was going to make a play for somebody on the tail end of it. Yeah. Whereas Harper wants to score. [1:24:58] Right. Like Harper is getting you in that spot. He's going to score. I am so impressed with him, by the way. Another guy. And they remind me of each other in a lot of ways as A.J. Mitchell. [1:25:10] Because they're both kind of similarly built. They're left-handed. They're very hungry as scorers. And LKC just got him back. And he was incredible in that game on Sunday against Denver. I mean, he acted like he hadn't been out at all. He'd been out forever. Comes back in. Immediately picks up where he left off. [1:25:27] Two really, to me, top shelf lead guards. Don't know when they're going to get their own team, where it is 35 minutes a night and I got the ball. [1:25:39] Because obviously that's going to be tough on OKC when you got SGA and Jalen Williams. And then you look at the young guards with Castle and De'Aaron Fox and San Antonio. So I don't know when, if it's going to be with the organizations they're with now. But at some point, both of those guys. [1:25:55] are going to be guys that are playing 33, 34 minutes a night on really good teams. And they're at the starting point guard and they're doing some serious work in that role. Whenever that's going to happen, that's how much respect I have for both of them. Yeah. Harper's inevitable. [1:26:08] AJ Mitchell sounds like GM Tim Legler taking over like the Pelicans or somebody would be like, we're going after Mitchell. I'm telling you, man. We're getting him. Yes. I'm telling you right now. I'm telling you. I think he's got it in him. Now, look, I don't know whether it's, you know, his ascension here happened a little bit later. He's older, a little bit older. Yeah. So it's a little bit of a different path for him. Right. But it doesn't matter. He's still young and it's happening now. And he opened up everybody's eyes in that organization with what happened this year. And everybody around the league, really.

[1:26:38] opinion on him. This dude can flat out go, and he's not phased by big moments. And so that's why, yeah, I just can't wait to see. But you're right. There's no doubt about Harper at all. He's going to be a star. I don't know if Mitchell will be a star, but I think he can be a lead guard on a good team in this league and put up good numbers. Harper is an all-NBA guy. [1:26:59] at some point. He will make an on-band team. Probably multiple. By the way, man, I think Castle has a chance to do that. If he ever really solves the shooting thing, he's better. I'm talking about at some point that means can you shoot [1:27:15] a three off the dribble a few times a night because that's what guards on that level do and shoot it at a clip that at least gets north of 36 percent 38 percent like get up in that range with with his defense and the way he physically attacks the rim i think castle is another one of those guys like there's no telling how good this guy could be in two or three years well you're betting on a psycho competitor to fill in holes in his game over the next three years which he's going to do right so stuff he can't do yet yeah yeah [1:27:43] By the time he's 26, he'll be able to do it. [1:27:46] The league's in really good shape with these young guys. They have two drafts in a row. I know you're too busy with the NBA to follow college, but there's some crazy guys, not even beyond the top four, there's some crazy scores in this draft. [1:28:00] All kinds of things coming. So it's pretty fun. Last question. [1:28:03] Did the SGA Jokic game and SGA basically turning into Kobe, in the Kobe Michael, basically just summoning the spirit of those guys down the stretch and hitting these FU threes.

[1:28:15] Did that [1:28:16] change your yokage is the best player in the league at all? [1:28:20] Yeah, listen, yes, I think that Jokic to me, [1:28:25] was clearly that label. [1:28:27] there's no doubt now it's this it's you know you can lean towards shea i have no problem with it it's certainly a much better debate i don't have any problem but people just want to say shea gildress alexander is the best player in the league the stuff he's doing with those type of shots at the end of games like how difficult those shots are and he doesn't go going both directions by the way like that's most guys have their favorite direction they have to get to if they know they're going to take a deep step back shot he can go either direction equally he's a very good [1:28:57] the lane. He's about as automatic as it comes in the mid-range. 55%. That's where you get into those efficiency levels that are just ridiculous for a guard that takes a lot of contested shots. No, man. He's... [1:29:11] I got no problem. [1:29:13] Anybody wants to say Shea Gilchrist-Alexander is best player in the NBA, I'm not going to fight you hard on that. I think it's an absolute legitimate debate, and it's 100% subjective. Just come with a good argument, come with your criteria, state your case. You're not going to be wrong if that's your opinion. [1:29:29] He's definitely moved into a 1A, 1B situation for me. [1:29:34] And I think the question is... [1:29:36] Which position do you value more? Like it hits that. Like most of the time, the last 15 years, perimeter guys have been the ones that have been driving titles. [1:29:45] Right. Where you have every once in a while you have the honest title or the Jokic title, but for the most part, it's.

[1:29:50] Guys that have the ball, guys... [1:29:52] who are 25, 30 feet from the basket who are then trying to create something. And that's been the best asset to have. That was why in the Luka draft, I was going nuts because I was like, I can't, how does somebody take Aiton over Luka when we have already established this decade that the thing you would want the most is an elite perimeter guy? This is the number one thing you need. [1:30:14] but Jokic is so good. It's almost like he's a perimeter guy, even as a center. I don't know. It's a great argument to have. I thought that game, that game was like, [1:30:23] out of like the late 80s with some of the games we would watch with MJ versus Bird, MJ versus Magic, Isaiah versus Magic. Like that's what it reminded me of. Just like two great guys at the peak of their powers. [1:30:36] Just trying to beat each other. And I don't know. I don't know where that goes in the playoffs if Denver's healthy. It's going to be amazing. [1:30:42] That's as good as this league has to offer what you watched in that game. I agree. How tight it was. [1:30:48] the level of shot making, the talent, the way the two teams play and how much you respect the way that they play. It's just fun. [1:30:56] And then on top of it, those guys delivering when they had to deliver. Right. Big shots. Big, hard shots. SGA's last shot kind of pushed off, but I didn't mind it. But [1:31:06] That step back from going to his right, which is a harder shot for already. Way harder. Last question. Are you happy with the commander's offseason? [1:31:15] So, yeah. [1:31:18] I feel pretty good about what we've done.

[1:31:20] But at the same time, this renewed cynicism kicked in that I had shed. I had shed all of the cynicism. [1:31:29] because of how much faith I had in Adam Peters coming in and changing the head coach, the coordinators. Obviously, you get your franchise quarterback. [1:31:39] I had shed it. You know what? All of that stuff that I've been carrying around for 25 years, it's gone. It's kind of crept back into my psyche just because of how... [1:31:53] Bad. [1:31:54] It was last year. And they're going to chalk it up mostly to injuries. It was a lot more than that. A lot more than that. I was scarred by what I watched last year. How do you go to the NFC Championship game and then win five games and lose eight in a row? And a lot of those weren't competitive. That shouldn't be the drop-off no matter how many guys get hurt. You should have that drop-off. You should at least be in the mix, in the fight, eight, eight. But hey, man, we fight every night because we're a winning organization now. We reverted. So I'm going to sell you. [1:32:24] like, [1:32:24] The names, I like what on paper it looks like it's adding. I'm cynical that it's actually going to work out that way. It's just where I'm at right now. Have you studied the NFL draft? Because you have the seventh pick. [1:32:36] I know I haven't gotten that far yet because of the NBA season, but I will be I will have that buttoned up because there's a chance that night. [1:32:44] Like McShay for us thinks... [1:32:46] Love is the best player in the draft, the running back. [1:32:49] There's a chance he could go to seven.

[1:32:52] All the money they just spent. [1:32:54] Went into their defense. [1:32:55] Yeah. So that's been the, and it should be, that was, it was just laughable how bad their defense was last year. That's where the money's been spent. So now, [1:33:04] The talk is they're going to turn the first round of the draft into an offensive pick, and that would be the position. We only have one running back right now, really. You know, Akroski Merritt's a really good player, but that's like the only running back we have. Other guys have signed with other teams. Eckler is probably done. So, like, we don't have any other running backs. So I think that probably is the position that they're going to target, and that is the name that looks like it's going to be there when they make that pick. It would be pretty exciting. Get a healthy Daniels. [1:33:34] you [1:33:35] Some skill guys. All right, Lex. I'll see you in a couple weeks before. So it's what? Yeah, we'll do one more right before the playoffs. [1:33:42] And then you'll be on Zach's pod once, but. [1:33:44] I've enjoyed hearing you on the game. Say hi to the Rev, Mike Breen. Say hi to Rucco. Say hi to RJ. Thanks for coming on. Always good to see you. [1:33:53] Anytime, Bill. Talk to you in a couple weeks. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Legs. Thanks to Gajal and Eduardo. As always, don't forget, I am going to be on live on Netflix, 4 o'clock PT, right after March Madness. So stay tuned for that. Have a great weekend. I will see you on Sunday.

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